comment #1

Chris says ...

The debate is over!

The earth is warmer than it's been in 400 years! Or maybe a thousand! Or maybe since the time of Christ!

And the hockey stick graph? Indisputably correct beyond all doubt except the parts where the numbers are bad. But ignore that. It doesn't mean anything. Science isn't about dissent or anyone asking questions.

The debate is over!

comment #2

delbomber says ...

Last several millenia = 0.00005% of the earth's existence, or approximately 4/100ths of a second of a 24 hour day. Put this shit in context, Dr. Wells. CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now about 450 million years ago, yet the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years...how anyone can conclude CO2 correlates to global temperatures in light of this damning evidence is beyond me. Other gases, maybe blah, blah, but aren't the focus of the hysteria.

Regardless...the problem with this issue is not data or consensus, it's unqualified laymen like you and Al Gore, myself and every one of your readers who doesn't at least hold a degree in atmospheric sciences interpreting the data.

This little indictment doesn't mean we shouldn't do everything in our power to preserve our precious way of life, it just means armchair scientists should shut the f up and focus instead on the ups and downs of Davey Poland, M. Night Shyamalamadingdong, and Johnny 21 Deppstreet.

comment #3

tkc says ...

I think everyone's asked the questions, over and over. The answer, unfortunately, keeps coming out the same. There's a difference between informed dissent and simple obstinacy, and when thousands of studies support the case for global warming, and some people still maintain that the jury's out, I believe that the burden of proof shifts toward them. I believe that those who say global warming is taking place have asked and answered the questions -- now it's your turn, so let's get started: Why do you believe it isn't happening? Which data points do you believe are flawed, and why? How do you account for the temperature rise over the past century? Do you dispute scientists' contention that the polar ice caps are not only in danger of melting, but are currently doing so? If so, why? Please cite at least three peer-reviewed studies by different authors to support each argument you make.

comment #4

tkc says ...

Delbomber: It's nice to believe that only people with advanced degrees should be debating this subject, but unfortunately, the only way any change is going to happen is if the general populace gets involved. It's a cop-out to throw up your hands and say, "Well, let's leave this up to the climate scientists, and if you don't have a degree, then shut the fuck up." For better or worse, we live in a country where the citizens make the decisions, and any citizen who can't be bothered to educate himself enough about the issues to make an informed decision on this issue is failing in his obligation to the larger society. Our right to self-government isn't a one-way street; it assumes that we take the responsibility to participate in civic life, and to make sure we're informed when we cast our ballots.

Also, for what it's worth: The fact that there's been a one-degree rise in .00005% of earth's existence isn't a comforting thought. It's a terrifying one, 'cause to me, at least, it indicates a pretty rapid transformation of our climate. I'll put it this way: The evidence we have that global warming is taking place is, at the very least, a whole hell of a lot better than the evidence that Saddam Hussein had WMD and ties to al Qaida, and yet we seem to have spared no expense in taking care of that threat. This seems like a problem that's a whole lot less costly to fix, and one where the downside of being wrong is a whole lot lower.

comment #5

Chris says ...

Delbomber, the debate is over!

Thousands of studies tell us this!

It doesn't matter none of us have degrees in atmospheric science, or geophysics, or meteorology!

It doesn't matter that we use greenhouse effect and global warming interchangeably!

It doesn't matter that most of these theories aren't falsifiable!

We KNOW what is happening because we FEEL it is happening!

I just stepped outside my house - it's warm!

More proof!

The debate is OVER!

comment #6

Daniel Zelter says ...

del: " Put this shit in context, Dr. Wells. CO2 levels were over ten times higher than they are now about 450 million years ago, yet the planet was in the depths of the absolute coldest period in the last half billion years..."

The mix of gases when a meteorite hit the earth before the Ice Age probably canceled each other out and led to formations of glaciers. Of course the fact that a meteor was able to hit the earth in the first place obviously indicates that the carbon dioxide chipped away at the ozone layer.

comment #7

delbomber says ...

I realize my example was a cursory dismissal of millions of hours of research, but I was making a point...us laymen can sling all the anecdotal evidece we want, and regurgitate all the quotes and factoids until we're blue in the face, we are simply not qualified to debate this. I hold a degree in physics and have received awards for my studies in statistics, two areas of academia crucial to this discussion, and while it allows me to better understand the flawed correlations I hear over and over, it doesn't qualify me to debate this. It is beyond our grasp...comments like Daniel's prove the fundamental misunderstanding people have about these oft talked about ideas...the ozone layer protects us from ultraviolet rays, it does not form a forcefield around the earth protecting it from ipact with a moving body.

Anyway...

The only resonating suggestion Gore made was regarding the economy of going green. He's right, it COULD be a boon for the US to do so, and would certainly reinvigorate Detroit.

I'm all for towing the line of consensus so long as we're not dragging behind us drastic, drakonian measures that are NOT supported by falsifiable evidence. Reduce our impact on the environement so that earth evolves naturally = good. Take actions to reverse global warming = bad...very bad.

comment #8

tkc says ...

Chris -- Remember how, when you were a kid and your friend was losing an argument, he'd simply repeat the last thing you said to him in a high-pitched, mocking voice? Remember how his aim wasn't to actually argue, but to so frustrate you that you'd throw up your hands and walk away? That's what you're doing.

comment #9

Tim Merrill says ...

Global warming deniers reveal themselves as the ignorant Flat Earth Society members they are by conveniently glossing over the fact that there are now over 6 billion human beings on this planet, as if that's some insignificant detail. "Oh, but you see, the earth warms in cycles...!" Uh-huh. Well, during the last "warming cycle," 10,000 years ago or whenever it was, were there 6 BILLION people here? 3 billion cars? Coal-burning factories? Millions of miles of highways? Nope - none of that. The earth was a slightly different place back then, in terms of human impact.
Ah, but that proves their point, right? The earth warmed anyway then, right? Perhaps. But even if we are in a warming cycle right now, to deny that adding 6 BILLION people to the equation has a major impact is just plain idiocy. Really makes you wonder if these yokels live on the planet earth at all...

comment #10

Daniel Zelter says ...

del: " I hold a degree in physics and have received awards for my studies in statistics, two areas of academia crucial to this discussion,"

Not really, since those fields don't actually involve studying weather patterns.

"...the ozone layer protects us from ultraviolet rays, it does not form a forcefield around the earth protecting it from ipact with a moving body."

It helps burn up objects crashing into the atmosphere.

"I'm all for towing the line of consensus so long as we're not dragging behind us drastic, drakonian measures that are NOT supported by falsifiable evidence.Reduce our impact on the environement so that earth evolves naturally = good. Take actions to reverse global warming = bad...very bad."

So air pollution and the mass destruction of forests in your eyes is "good"? Theodore Roosevelt would be glad to see what happened to Republicans since he was President.

tkc: "Chris -- Remember how, when you were a kid and your friend was losing an argument, he'd simply repeat the last thing you said to him in a high-pitched, mocking voice? Remember how his aim wasn't to actually argue, but to so frustrate you that you'd throw up your hands and walk away?"

Yes, and he got a job at FOX News.

comment #11

delbomber says ...

oh boy, where do i begin...

Dan'imal, the ozone layer does no such thing. Please go to a few online encyclopedias and educate yourself. Objects burn up due to friction of the entire atmosphere, not....oh, just go read.

Statistics isn't crucial to understanding weather????? Extraplotions and corrolations can ONLY be drawn through the employment of statistcal methods...get a grip man. Yes, chemistry may lend itself more to this debate than physics, but to say physics plays no part is assinine. Well, at least you didn't get all hysterical and blame Richard Nixon for the problem...

Tim, you won't find me denying climate change, but I will argue to its root cause. Your entire example is another one of the false precepts of global warming. Human "infestation" leads to about 7 billion tons of CO2 released per year. Do you know how much is estimated to be released through natural processes? 300 billion tons. We may be the straw that breaks the camel's back, yes, and we should take aggressive measures to reduce CO2 and other gases that, to the best of our knowledge, are "greenhouse" gases. But we simply can not argue this constructively without researching it ourselves. Reading material through multiple filters, even that of a scientist in a "peer reviewed" paper is not fodder for constructive debate. I laugh when I hear people say "peer reviewed this, peer reviewed that " while never having read one single peer reviewed paper in their lives. We can discuss the ethics, and I think to a certain extent that's what we're doing...

comment #12

tkc says ...

Del -- The most recent figures I've seen cited show natural processes emitting 200 billion tons of CO2, and humans emitting 8 billion tons, making for a 4% increase in CO2 levels, which -- yes -- is enough to "break the camel's back", since our planet simply can't absorb that excess CO2 and, year over year, it builds up. (Especially since, at the same time we're emitting more CO2, we're destroying vegetation.) That may be why CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere have increased by 40% since the Industrial Revolution.

Now, you're right -- I don't hold an advanced degree in climatology, and I haven't spent years in a lab studying the data myself. I *have* read through the scientific papers on this, and the government reports, because I'm interested in the topic. But to say that "we simply cannot argue this constructively without researching it ourselves" is a ridiculous argument -- it's an attempt to winning the argument by setting an impossibly high threshold for participation. It's the equivalent of saying, "My liver is made of green cheese", and, when someone challenges you, saying, "Excuse me, are you a doctor? No? Well, then you really don't have the facts, do you?"

There are certain things I'm willing to accept because there is a scientific consensus that it is so -- I'm willing to believe in the existence of atoms, and the efficacy of penicillin, and the roundness of the earth, despite lacking an electron microscope, a petri dish, or a space shuttle. Now, you may laugh when you hear people say, "peer-reviewed this, peer-reviewed that". But I find that far less laughable than someone who says, "reading papers doesn't teach you anything, and we can't have a constructive debate unless you go out and personally research climate change".

comment #13

Daniel Zelter says ...

" Objects burn up due to friction of the entire atmosphere,"

And you don't think the ozone layer plays a part in that friction?

" Extraplotions and corrolations can ONLY be drawn through the employment of statistcal methods..."

But you're not using those methods to predict weather patterns. You're using equipment which measures air pressure and air pressure. You don't
predict when it's going to rain based on statistics. You predict when it's going to rain based on the amount of precipitation in the clouds.

" Do you know how much is estimated to be released through natural processes? 300 billion tons. We may be the straw that breaks the camel's back, yes, and we should take aggressive measures to reduce CO2 and other gases that, to the best of our knowledge, are "greenhouse" gases. But we simply can not argue this constructively without researching it ourselves."

Considering we're wiping out the forests which absorb the CO2, we can argue this constructively.

" Reading material through multiple filters, even that of a scientist in a "peer reviewed" paper is not fodder for constructive debate."

So you're saying it's ok that you're an expert, but it's stupid if they consult experts?

comment #14

delbomber says ...

Daniel, don't backpeddle...you thought the ozone layer protected the earth on its own...come on dude...if it disappeared, the earth would still be protected from smallish space debris.

And, ummm, read what you wrote...weather patterns and rainfall amounts are two different things entirely...weather is forecasted by using past data and extrapolating. This isn't my opinion, this is fact. When you see that little % sign next to chance of precipation, how do you think they come up with that? Don't answer that, you have proven yourself incapable.

tkc...What I meant to say, in my haste, is that without reading the SOURCE material, not filtered though a 'New Yorker' article or other media, you shouldn't really be using those as reference. So many people buzz with "peer review" without ever reading a single study.

tkc, I'm glad to carry on this conversation, Danny, you're making my nose bleed again...I give up with you...

comment #15

tkc says ...

Del -- While I disagree with the contention that anyone who wants to participate on a debate on this subject has to have done his own exhaustive survey of the original source material, let's put that aside for now, and discuss this purely on your terms. Since you place a premium on reading original, unfiltered research, what are the studies that show that global warming isn't taking place, or that it isn't caused by CO2 and other greenhouse gases, or that the rise in CO2 and greenhouse-gas levels isn't caused by human activity, or that the polar ice caps aren't currently melting, or any of the other arguments that might be employed *against* taking steps to lower greenhouse gas emissions? I'm actually sincere and serious here -- I'd be curious to read them.

comment #16

delbomber says ...

to paraphrase myself: " you won't find me denying climate change..."

...I'm all for action so long as it is rational and non-partisan...for instance, nuclear energy. People tend to confuse my argument for level headedness with a dissenting view, which I guess is technically but not holistically correct. Yes, I am cynical and find difficulty in drawing conclusions from data that often conflicts with itself, is immeasurable, and is not falsifiable.

I think the solution lies with us making our presence on earth less invasive, versus taking radical, evasive actions to restore our idea of normalcy...I have actually seen support for increased sulfer dioxide emissions as SO2 reduces sunlight penetration via reflection. This is a perfect demonstration of the dangers of laymen hyper-contextualizing this issue.

I never said we CAN'T debate it, I said we are unqualified and incapable of arriving at a constructive accord...uneducated, or under-educated, bickering is all that arises from snippets and anecdotes like Jeff's original post.

Cheers.

comment #17

tkc says ...

del --

OK, I see where you're coming from; I don't wholly agree with you, but I get your point. I guess I'm still unclear on which specific "radical, evasive" actions you'd rather we not take. The steps outlined by Gore (who, you argued in your initial post, is an unqualified layman) seem to be neither -- recycling, searching for alternative sources of energy and the like.

As for the data conflicting with itself, being immeasurable, and not being falsifiable -- to take these in turn: I'd be interested to know which of the data conflicts with itself. I'm not entirely certain what you mean by immeasurable. And as for "not falsifiable" -- it's true, unfortunately, we have only one planet, so the possibility of testing any theory is sadly limited.

I guess what bothered me about your original post -- and I realize now this wasn't your argument -- is that the explanation that "the data's not conclusive" or "it's too complex to understand" is usually used to justify maintaining the status quo (see, for instance, Bush's insistence over the past five years that he "needs to see more research" on global warming before taking action). It's an attitude that assumes that inactivity bears no cost -- that it's a choice between taking action, which may carry certain economic downsides, and doing nothing, which has no downside whatsoever. And that, to me, is a flawed argument. In fact, it seems to me, based on my (admittedly layman's) understanding of the issue, that the preponderance of the evidence argues for action, and that the burden of proof has now shifted to those who would argue for inaction.

And as for your final graf -- I don't think there's much difference between saying "you can't debate something" and "you can debate this all you like, but it's not a constructive activity". I think our conversation's actually been quite constructive. And while, yes, oftentimes discussion of the issue devolves into name-calling, I don't think that that necessarily implies that the only people who should discuss this are those who hold doctorates. In fact, I would argue that, given that the issues involved affect everyone on the planet, I think that we all have a stake in it, and a responsibility to understand and debate it, just as the experts have a responsibility to make their findings accessible enough that a reasonably interested person can grasp it. Because much though I'd like to trust that our leaders will hear and heed the advice of those who know the most about a given subject, the history of this administration (and all its predecessors) argues otherwise.

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comment #53

Jacky says ...

He acquires many things, he must keep close watch over them.