comment #1

Anonymous says ...

Ken Lay was certainly heartless -- and where exactly did all that money go? -- but Jeffrey Skilling is even worse (far worse), in my opinion. Whereas Ken Lay had no moral compass whatsoever, Skilling is an arrogant, egotistical slimebag...with no moral compass.

comment #2

Reedyb says ...

The good news for George W. Bush is that he only has to pardon Jeffrey Skilling now.

comment #3

Mark says ...

You may be right about the level of prickdom re: Lay, but I can't point to E:TSGITR as proof of this. From that doc, Skilling appeared to be the one stealing the keys to the car, and Lay was more like the parent with his head in the sand.

i would bet, however, that the situation was more like organized crime, with Lay as the Godfather, who always kept his nose clean, only revealing his full ruthfulness behind closed doors. Lay was the righthand man, and Fastow was the pitbull.

comment #4

Chris Andrien says ...

Ken Lay had a heart?

comment #5

Jeffrey Wells says ...

Skilling was Claggart -- Lay was Captain Veer. (I'm presuming everyone knows their "Billy Budd.")

comment #6

Anonymous says ...

comment #7

spokevin says ...

I want to see the body.

comment #8

Rest In Peace says ...

So what happens to all his assets now? Can they still be seized?

And I wonder if Dubya will go to the funeral. You know he wants to. I mean, criminal or not, Kenny-Boy was his friend.

comment #9

Mathew says ...

Anyone else think that this might have been a assisted-suicide? I'm sure there were financial reasons for doing so instead of rotting your life away in prision.

comment #10

Steve C. says ...

Great Ceasar's Ghost are Wikipedia contributors fast - someone has already adjusted the entry for even the "Trial of Kenneth Lay and Jeffrey Skilling."

Anyone else think the same thing - "My Aunt's Fanny it was a NATURAL heart attack."

However, if I read the verdict reports right, Lay - who hadn't been sentenced yet - might have only seen something like 5 years behind bars. The estimates of what the full sentence would be (20-30 years) never mention the minimums. So, it probably was the stress of the trial plus the news the Feds were going after more money he had hidden away in back accounts while claiming "poor-mouth."

Yeah, because all of us poor folks vacaction in Aspen.

comment #11

NYCBusybody says ...

I hate Ken Lay as much as anyone, and his death bothers me none, for he was by all accounts a criminal coward who gladly ruined the lives of many people for his own gain.

I just wonder how many people who are being flippant about his death are rabid anti-death penalty nuts. Being glad someone is dead is being glad someone is dead, no matter how you cut it.

comment #12

Steve C. says ...

Ken Lay to retirees, pensioners and investors: Fuck You.
God to Ken Lay: No, fuck YOU.

Wish someone hadn't said "show me the body" because you don't have to be that paranoid to imagine that shortly after he was supposedly sent down to the morgue a plane took off from the nearest Air Force base headed in the direction of Costa Rica.

Meanwhile, 2,000 miles away in an office in the White House someone is listening into their phone as a voice says: "It has been taken care of, sir. Operation Kenny Boy is in the air."

comment #13

Dave Keller says ...

First, Ken Lay and President Bush were not friends. Did they know each other? Of course, but knowing someone does not make them your friend.

Moreover, this is a great American tragedy. What a waste. Lay could have made a real difference in the world, but got greedy and hurt so many people and lost touch with his dreams and goals. How sickening. How tragic.

comment #14

Steve C says ...

I'll own up that one right now, NYC.

Many of us are against the death penalty because we know that it is almost certain that innocent Americans have been killed because of the flaws in the legal system if not for downright fraud on the part of prosecutors.

Death penalty fans seem to live in a world where they would rather see innocent people put to death in order that the guilty suffer. My moral code says it is far better that some guilty go free so that the innocent are murdered by their state.

I get a chuckle, however, when mother nature steps in to correct the situation.

comment #15

Anonymous says ...

At least Dubya doesn't have to pardon him now. When does Skilling have his heart attack?

comment #16

NYCBusybody says ...

Then here's hoping you're the next innocent to be framed, Steve, or that mother nature works swiftly on you as well.

comment #17

Anonymous says ...

"First, Ken Lay and President Bush were not friends."

Please.

comment #18

AH says ...

I got no satisfaction when I heard about Ken Lay's death, just sadness. This was a man who was born to a dirt poor family and made something of himself only to squander it in a morass of greed and crime.

I feel sadness for all his lost potential, for all the suffering he brought and for his easy, comparatively, escape.

comment #19

Anonymous says ...

Ha. One down, one to go. I worked for Arthur Andersen, and boy I could tell you stories about shreddering the night away. The whole system was rotten to the core and it was sooooo easy to make all this money. As long as there is no open casket with Lay in it I won't believe a thing.

comment #20

Mr. Dobbs says ...

Congrats, Rest In Peace! You were the first response to break out the tired but trusted "Kenny-Boy" reference. But don't just stop at that cliche, you've got more in 'ya, I'm certain. Here, I'll set you up: "Bush isn't dumb, you know he got a degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard Business School." Now hit it out of the park!

(BTW- disclaimer... no tears here shed for Lay... Karma's a bitch, ain't it?)

comment #21

Daniel Zelter says ...

NYC: "I just wonder how many people who are being flippant about his death are rabid anti-death penalty nuts."

I think the reason there are people who are against the death penalty is because if Ken was poor and black, he'd be more likely to be accused of murder/rape and executed. Anyway, as long as it's not state-sponsored murder-like this war-in the name of a "culture of life", I'm satisfied with the outcome.

Dave: Um, Lay supported Bush's 2000 campaign and shut down the power in California in the name of "de-regulation", while price-gouging the state
into debt, because we didn't vote for him.

AH: "This was a man who was born to a dirt poor family and made something of himself only to squander it in a morass of greed and crime."

That's unfortunately the inevitable result of the
culture of American capitalism. It's everyone for his or her self, and Ken ended up being a statistic. If it wasn't ripping off employees, it'd be robbing a liquor store. The system as we know it doesn't work.

comment #22

Anonymous says ...

I wanna see a body.

comment #23

Alan says ...

Right now, Ken Lay is in hell enduring the deep anal penetration of the tri-penis of Azazothoth The Wolverine Fornicator.

And all is as it should be.

comment #24

NYCBusybody says ...

Daniel Zelter: I'm black, and I've never felt in danger of being accused of murder/rape. I'm very proud of my people, but I don't need white liberals like you lecturing me on society.

comment #25

Mr. Dobbs says ...

You are exactly correct Daniel Zelter! If only our nation would finally see the light about our blood-thirsty capitalist ways. In the worker's paradise that is Cuba one would never find this level of graft or corruption. Power to the people!

comment #26

NYCBusybody says ...

I swear to God, if I hear one more condescending white racist like Zelter tell me what my people should think, or what our "experience" is, I'm going to off myself like Kenny Boy just did.

comment #27

craptastic says ...

Those bastards are so sneaky... I bet he's sitting on a beach in Guam right now sipping a giant glass of evil juice.

comment #28

Daniel Zelter says ...

NYC: " I'm black, and I've never felt in danger of being accused of murder/rape."

Is your last name Elder?

"I swear to God, if I hear one more condescending white racist like Zelter tell me what my people should think, or what our "experience" is, I'm going to off myself like Kenny Boy just did."

First off, I don't see how pointing out racism is racist. By that logic, Martin Luther King Jr. was a racist. Secondly, I don't care what you think or experience. I'm speaking from statistics, and if you don't fall into that pattern, then good for you.

Dobbs: "If only our nation would finally see the light about our blood-thirsty capitalist ways. In the worker's paradise that is Cuba one would never find this level of graft or corruption."

True, because money is actually distributed fairly there, and the people actually have a better education and standard of living than their relatives next door in Florida. Why do you think Elian wanted to be with his broke dad instead of his rich extended family?

comment #29

NYCBusybody says ...

So why don't you move to Cuba, Daniel? In all seriousness? Logically, it would be a better place to live then here, no?

And yes, you are racist. Deal with it.

comment #30

Daniel Zelter says ...

NYC: "So why don't you move to Cuba, Daniel? In all seriousness? Logically, it would be a better place to live then here, no?"

Because I want to improve things here. I don't want to cut and run like Republicans did in Afghanistan.

"And yes, you are racist. Deal with it."

So I guess Martin was, too, huh? Oh well, we can't all be "tolerant" like Trent Lott and Strom Thurmond.

comment #31

NYCBusybody says ...

No, Martin was a great man, and Lott and Thurmond are racists. Next?

And yes, Republicans foolishly cut and run in Afghanistan to focus on a misguided war in Iraq. I agree. Next?

I also think that if you were really serious about improving American life, you'd move to Cuba. Please do, for our improvement.

comment #32

aaron says ...

Re: Dave Keller's above comments that Bush and Ken Lay were not friends.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0708042lay1.html

The Smoking Gun has a big batch of personal letters between the two of them that would seem to indicate otherwise.

comment #33

Mathew says ...

"The system as we know it doesn't work."

Capitalism? It's the only system that does indeed work. Using a a corrupt business man like Lay as proof of a broken system is a copout. Actually it's proof of how good our system works when men like Lay are found guilty and sentenced. The truth is that capitalism motivates people. Go to an inner city school and try to teach the kids there about the hardships of the human condition and see how much they'll want to learn; teach them about how to get ahead in the world through self-motivation, ethics and a how to make a good living and you'll see much more positive results. Leave the hardships of the human condition to the artists who thrive on it for creative motivation.

comment #34

Daniel Zelter says ...

NYC: "I also think that if you were really serious about improving American life, you'd move to Cuba. Please do, for our improvement."

Why, when I can just bring Cuba with me, like Tom Delay?

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1054968,00.html?cnn=yes.

comment #35

Joe Greenia says ...

Some kid holds up a gas station for $60, he doesn’t get to go home for six months and await sentencing. If our justice system were truly blind to class this guy would have died in prison.

comment #36

Daniel Zelter says ...

Matthew: "Capitalism? It's the only system that does indeed work."

Until the occasional recession/depression...

"Using a a corrupt business man like Lay as proof of a broken system is a copout. Actually it's proof of how good our system works when men like Lay are found guilty and sentenced."

Not really, since they're usually tried after they've forced people to be poor. And if you're the son of a President tied to a banking scandal like Neil Bush, you can get off the hook.

"Go to an inner city school and try to teach the kids there about the hardships of the human condition and see how much they'll want to learn; teach them about how to get ahead in the world through self-motivation, ethics and a how to make a good living and you'll see much more positive results."

Yes, teen pregnancies, gangs, and higher fatality rates than whites can certainly be considered positive results. Why can't those people just stop being lazy and work for their success like Dubya?

comment #37

Daniel Zelter says ...

Guys, sorry. I though we were talking about FRITO Lay, not this Ken Lay guy.

Please ignore what I've written.

comment #38

NYCBusybody says ...

It's white liberal racists who have destroyed inner-city communities, and continue to use puppets like Jesse Jackson to make my people feel like victims, so they can feel like benefactors and get votes for the corrupt Democratic party.

Take Tom DeLay with you to Cuba, Zelter. You're both extremists, and the fewer racists, the better.

comment #39

Daniel Zelter says ...

NYC: "It's white liberal racists who have destroyed inner-city communities,"

Liberals aren't the ones advocating second amendment rights for gang members.

comment #40

NYCBusybody says ...

As if gang members get their guns legally?

I've known quite a few, grew up around 'em. They didn't buy their guns legally at gun shows, I can tell you that. Making gun ownership illegal ain't gonna keep them from getting 'em.

comment #41

Daniel Zelter says ...

NYC: "As if gang members get their guns legally?"

The Columbine shooters did.

"They didn't buy their guns legally at gun shows, I can tell you that."

But they probably used intermediaries who could buy guns for them legally. That's why you join a gang: for the connections. It's not much different from Cheney's ties to Halliburton when you think about it.

comment #42

James says ...

Wells, you're wrong.

And I've seen the Enron doc.

The difference is that I've also read "Conspiracy of Fools," the book by NY Times reporter, Kurt Eichenwald (sp?), which catalogues in spectacular detail the rise and fall of Enron. That book makes it pretty clear that Lay was mostly a deluded, not very thorough, and just plain bad executive who delegated a ton of authority to Jeffrey Skilling and Andy Fastow and then failed to heed warning after warning regarding their mismanagement. Lay was not a bad guy. He was incompetent to be sure, but I don't think he even deserved to go to jail, much less die, for that. Also, as "Conspiracy" makes clear, all those Enron employees who lost their jobs and their 401-K's were similarly incompetent in the manner in which they continued to put all their eggs in Enron's basket even after Enron's crash was well under way. And don't forget the incompetence of all the American investors who drove up the Enron stock price and then cried foul when it crashed. All those investors were just plain silly for putting so much of their money in a company that never explained what the heck its business was. Good investors know better than to invest in a company like Enron, a company that never revealed the particulars of how it made its money.

comment #43

Daniel Zelter says ...

James: "That book makes it pretty clear that Lay was mostly a deluded, not very thorough, and just plain bad executive who delegated a ton of authority to Jeffrey Skilling and Andy Fastow and then failed to heed warning after warning regarding their mismanagement."

But the point is he made the decisions.

" Lay was not a bad guy. He was incompetent to be sure,"

And so was Bush in regards to Katrina and 9/11.

"but I don't think he even deserved to go to jail, much less die, for that."

Hey, that Adolf guy wasn't so bad. After all, it was really Himmler and Goebbels who were running the show.

"Also, as "Conspiracy" makes clear, all those Enron employees who lost their jobs and their 401-K's were similarly incompetent in the manner in which they continued to put all their eggs in Enron's basket even after Enron's crash was well under way."

That's because Lay refused to let them cash out their chips.

"All those investors were just plain silly for putting so much of their money in a company that never explained what the heck its business was."

While that's the reason why the "new economy" failed in general, the fact that companies like Enron and World.com were allowed to mess with people's investments without being held accountable is the real problem. After all, when old ladies get ripped off by loan sharks, no one blames them for being ripped off.

"Good investors know better than to invest in a company like Enron, a company that never revealed the particulars of how it made its money."

"Good" investors are paid to inflate the value of companies like Enron in order to coerce the "bad" investors into investing in those companies. Again, that's why the system doesn't work, because people are investing other people's money, instead of their own.

comment #44

Dave Keller says ...

Oh boy. Any idiot can send correspondence to the president or the governor. I have several personal notes sent to me by elected officials who I have met, including one that praised a book I had published, but I would not consider him a friend or vice verse.

comment #45

Dobbs, Fred Dobbs says ...

Of course when it was decided that little Elian was to return to Cuba to pursue a career as pro-Castro propaganda tool, he merely boarded a plane and jetted off to Havana. As opposed to when his mother wanted to leave Cuba (along with many others) and was forced to risk life and limb in make-shift boats in a desperate attempt to flee.

Also, how are people afflicted with AIDS treated in the worker's paradise known as Cuba?

(I tremble in anticipation...waiting for Daniel Zelter to answer my points by cutting and pasting them one by one)

FRITO Lay...... I get it.

comment #46

Daniel Zelter says ...

Dave: Lay did more than wrote to Bush. He also funded his 2000 election campaign.

Dobbs: "Of course when it was decided that little Elian was to return to Cuba to pursue a career as pro-Castro propaganda tool,"

Elian wanted to be with his dad. I thought Republicans were against the idea of the state taking away children from loving parents.

"As opposed to when his mother wanted to leave Cuba (along with many others) and was forced to risk life and limb in make-shift boats in a desperate attempt to flee."

Don't blame Castro for the lack of ships. If we
had free trade with them like we do with China,
then the Cubans would be able to go wherever they wanted. And China's far more tyrannical than Cuba, but has a larger workforce than Cuba willing to be employed without a living wage.
Anyway, if the mom's willing to put the child at risk for her own sake, she doesn't deserve to be Elian's guardian.

"Also, how are people afflicted with AIDS treated in the worker's paradise known as Cuba?"

Probably about the same as people afflicted with radiation from Chernobyl. http://www.planetark.com/dailynewsstory.cfm/newsid/30132/story.htm

comment #47

James says ...

Read the book, Daniel. Every one of your points is refuted by the hardcore facts.

comment #48

Dobbs says ...

Who's a Republican? Me? I learn things everyday. Wow. Zelter actually said something funny. (An uncommon trait amongst those on the loony left, I mean, how can you make jokes when there is so many people in this world having their civil liberties violated?) No, not the Frito-Lay line. That was lame. But claiming that Cubans use make-shift rafts because we don't supply enough ships to them is Hi-Larious. The point was not the type of vessel they use. It's the fact that they are TRYING TO ESCAPE CUBA.

"Hey Zelter, did you hear that Nazis used Zyklon-B gas to commit genocide?"

(Zelter replies:) "Hey, they only did that because America's unfair trade embargo against Germany kept them from obtaining Potassium Cyanide."

comment #49

Daniel Zelter says ...

James: "Read the book, Daniel. Every one of your points is refuted by the hardcore facts."

I'm guessing, as usual, the 'facts' have no citations.

Dobbs: "Who's a Republican? Me?"

Lemme guess. You're a "libertarian". Or maybe you're "usually a liberal, except when it comes to attacking Bush."

"But claiming that Cubans use make-shift rafts because we don't supply enough ships to them is Hi-Larious."

No more hilarious than ironically telling N. Korea it's wrong to make demands using the threat of missile attacks.

"The point was not the type of vessel they use. It's the fact that they are TRYING TO ESCAPE CUBA."

Only the ones who can afford it. The rest who are poor don't want to be even poorer by moving to the U.S.

"Hey Zelter, did you hear that Nazis used Zyklon-B gas to commit genocide?"

Did you hear that American corporations helped with supplying the gas, just like they helped with supplying the gas used by Saddam against the Kurds?

" "Hey, they only did that because America's unfair trade embargo against Germany kept them from obtaining Potassium Cyanide."'

Though it didn't stop them from outsourcing slave labor and handing out loans. For example, Bush's own grandfather was a war profiteer.

comment #50

James says ...

Daniel:

No. The book is immaculately footnoted. Seriously. It's a great read. I cannot recommend it highly enough as pure pleasure, as well as a very detailed window into an important bit of contemporary history.

comment #51

Jack's Endrocrine Gland says ...

"Then here's hoping you're the next innocent to be framed, Steve, or that mother nature works swiftly on you as well."

Every noticed when the shitheads on the right can't come up with a good answer, they always ALWAYS resort to making it personal?

So much for that right-to-life, culture of life bullshit - let's fry some motherfuckers and let God sort them out.

What a bunch of fascist fucks.

comment #52

NYCBusybody says ...

"So much for that right-to-life, culture of life bullshit - let's fry some motherfuckers and let God sort them out."

Actually, I'm very much right-to-die, and pro-choice as well. I was just pointing out that if Steve C thinks being flippant about death is funny and cute, than I think it should be aimed at him as well, and that I hope he uses his right to die.

comment #53

NYCBusybody says ...

AND, I don't believe in God in any shape or form. So 0 for 3, bud.

comment #54

Daniel Zelter says ...

NYC: So you're not really arguing. You're just calling people names. Are you working for FOX News?

comment #55

NYCBusybody says ...

I wish Daniel Zelter had been aborted. Twice.

You won't hear that on Fox News.

comment #56

Daniel Zelter says ...

NYC: Yeah, you'll just hear Bill O' Reilly say that we should run Iraq like Saddam.

comment #57

NYCBusybody says ...

Yeah.

comment #58

delbomber says ...

Great editorial type article on Lay on the front page of today's NY Slimes 'Business' section...contrasts his buffoonary and culpability fairly and unapologetically.

comment #59

BL says ...

What ridiculous rhetoric to assume that because one is anti death penalty, one is automatically 'pro-criminal'.

NYCBusybody - you may say you are a Dem but you have certainly adapted the Karl Rove method of 'arguing' your points by attacking your 'opponent'.

That said - sticking a serious criminal in jail for life is hardly the same thing as letting them off scott-free with a pat on the back and a new suit of clohtes. The main reason to be anti-death penalty is because one is anti-murder. To kill an unarmed and defenseless person (no matter how many terrible things they have done in the past) in cold blood is in my book - murder (as opposed to killing someone in the active process of attacking you).

I think it is the hallmark of a 'civilized society' not to act like bloodthirsty as*holes, but clearly, many Americans disagree.

BTW, NYCBusybody, if you haven't already, you should start picking up the NY Press - I think Armond White (one of the film reviewers there) might be right up your alley.