Smith on slackers
I asked Clerks 2 director-writer-costar Kevin Smith for a comment about the still-slacking-in-their-30s syndrome described in a piece I wrote earlier today called "Party On."
I started things off a bit flippantly by asking if guys wanking their lives away in their 30s is an indication of the social fabric coming apart, and here's his reply: "Naah -- blame Bill Murray, the original slacker hero. We all grew up watching Stripes. It had an impact.
"I think some filmmakers like me (who aren't overly creative...or overly talented, for that matter) are afforded an extended adolescence by virtue of what we do for a living. I mean, we basically 'make pretend' and get paid for it. So maybe we like to portray that lifestyle cinematically because, at this point, it's all we know?
"George Lucas, at a young age, painted a canvas with Wookies and Death Stars; some of us can only paint a corner of a canvas with characters who like to talk about Wookies and Death Stars.
"I've been writing about these types of characters for twelve years now, so it's not a trend for me as much as a mantra. For me, I think it has a lot to do with my father, who spent his entire adult life working for the U.S. Postal service, doing the 11 pm to 7 am shift, canceling stamps. Soul-killing work, that, but his generation didn't have the luxury of picking a dream job or following whimsies; you got married and you got a job, period.
"My generation was the first to be very vocal (not the first to actually live this way, mind you, but to be VOCAL on the subject) about a willingness to 'play the game', so to speak, but only according to our own rules. Sort of a 'Yeah, I'll get a job, but since it'll be doing what I want, it'll never feel like a job.'
"And while, in theory, that's a good m.o. (and in some cases, like mine, somewhat achievable), it's not very practical."
Posted by Jeffrey Wells on July 6, 2006 at 2:42 PM
comment #1
delbomber says ...
Ah, so an answer to my question "And why does Mr. Movie Poopshoot get a pass but Apatow gets bashed again? Smith has been dipping his one-hitter into the same stash for, umm, forever."
So what's your salad-tossing condiment of choice, Jeff. Are you a syrup or jelly man? Marmalade perhaps?
Posted by delbomber at July 6, 2006 3:12 PM
comment #2
delbomber says ...
Bravo to Smith for honesty and self-awareness. Love 'Mallrats' btw, love it.
Posted by delbomber at July 6, 2006 3:14 PM
comment #3
Nick says ...
Nothing wrong with a shout out to the old boss. Kevin Smith has a gift for dialoge, and thats about it. He should be our generation's Mamet, at least he knows he's too lazy, but if he tried, he could have something really great in him, not just funny.
Posted by Nick at July 6, 2006 4:49 PM
comment #4
Anonymous says ...
I'm no particular Kevin Smith, but the guy is WAY more talented than that wank Judd Apatow.
Posted by Anonymous at July 6, 2006 5:44 PM
comment #5
Anonymous says ...
Smith is totally inferior to Apatow. Compare The 40 Year Old Virgin to the extremely similar (in tone, mood, intent) Jersey Girl. Enough said.
Posted by Anonymous at July 6, 2006 5:52 PM
comment #6
Steve C. says ...
You mean other than the most obvious reason?
You know, the fact that two generations have now grown up watching their fathers, uncles and older brothers go work loyally and with much industry at companies only be laid off or fired when the company gets swallowed up, sends most of the work overseas or simply goes bankrupt.
I think most realize they can't do what Smith does - get paid large amounts of money to immortalize this generation - and hence are reluctant to slave away if it could all disappear with the next headline. It used to be if you had a skill, you had a fighting chance of taking that skill elsewhere. But now, whole workforces in even white collar jobs can find their skillset employable only in Southeast Asia or India.
Thanks to dipshits like Ken Lay and the rest who have driven their companies into the ground, it's only going to get worse.
Posted by Steve C. at July 6, 2006 6:39 PM
comment #7
bluewhir says ...
In what world are 40 Year Old Virgin and Jersey Girl "extremely similar"??
I wasn't aware that Jersey Girl was attempting to be a comedy of the gross-out, awkward-situation variety, or that 40 YOV was a love letter to kids and family. I must have seen a different flick.
Regarding Smith and Apatow, not sure why we have to bash one over the other, I love 'em both! And to use what was, in each case, not their best work to compare them is ludicrous.
Apatow was responsible for some of the greatest television ever (Freaks and Geeks, Undeclared, writer for Larry Sanders and Ben Stiller show), and Anchorman was, for my money, a more watchable flick than 40YOV.
I won't bother listing Smith's credits, but I don't think any Smith fan is putting Jersey Girl out there as somehow representative of his overall body of work.
They are both great, at different things, and should be credited for trying to bring a little heart and reality to "wacky" comedies.
Posted by bluewhir at July 6, 2006 6:42 PM
comment #8
Anonymous says ...
bluewhir, you're forgetting key scenes in both movies. All the Catherine Keener material in 40YOV is about a single mother with a daughter falling in love. Okay, she's not a man (like Affleck's character in Jersey Girl), but it's pretty close. Also, there were some gross-out gags in Jersey Girl (remember all the lame baby poop jokes with George Carlin). They're definitely similar.
My previous post was simply a response to an earlier poster who claimed "I'm no particular Kevin Smith, but the guy is WAY more talented than that wank Judd Apatow." Since people have been arguing about 40YOV on this site all day and Jersey Girl is Smith's most recent work (and yes, they're similar films), it seemed like an illuminating comparison. It still does.
Posted by Anonymous at July 6, 2006 7:52 PM
comment #9
Daniel Zelter says ...
The problem with the concept of a Clerks 2 is that Kevin's been successful since the first film-or at least more successful, than say, Richard Kelly-thus no longer making him experienced in the struggles of adults stuck in dead-end jobs. For example, most 30-somethings who are still working at a place like McDonald's are not going to be married to someone like Rosario Dawson. That's why Jersey Girl failed. No one's going to feel sorry for an entertainment executive losing his wife, since he's got enough money to be able to take care of his daughter and meet new people. And they're also not going to relate to an "average guy" going from J. Lo to Liv Tyler. In all honesty, I would have been happy if the "Jersey trilogy" ended with Dogma.
Posted by Daniel Zelter at July 7, 2006 12:25 AM
comment #10
gb says ...
Kevin Smith is a hack, a very likeable one, but a hack nonetheless. Apatow has way more talent... exhibit A, Freaks and Geeks.
Posted by gb at July 7, 2006 5:21 AM
comment #11
Nicol D says ...
Just had some pints last night with a friend who is exactly as described. Early 30's, still a waiter, no ambition to do anything and everynight is a party and the goal is to score.
Smith is very glib but the problem is...he can afford to be.
For most men this is a deadend lifestyle. It has much more to do with the sexual revolution of the 60's than Bill Murray.
Modern feminism told women they could be be every bit as promiscuous and self indulgent as they thought men to be. They did not need men for a food, shelter or even a child...hence being raised in this culture, the Gen X men do not know what to do with themselves. With no responsibilities except to the self, they live in a prolonged adolescence with no goals or ambition.
The women who also indulge in this lifestyle are not so lucky either. I know many of them too.
By thier thirties many have not found 'Mr. Right' and are lonely. Problem is, the cad slacker types don't want to commit to them and (if they are good looking) just go for younger women who do not ask for a commitment.
The responsible men on the other hand are either married and of the ones who aren't, they do not want a woman who spent all of her looks and youth on cads who did not respect her in her twenties.
We have 4 decades of perspective on the sexual revolution. I think the overall subject matter of Clerks II is worthwhile. Sadly, because of his glib nature I do not know that Kevin Smith is the person to look to for answers.
Posted by Nicol D at July 7, 2006 6:07 AM
comment #12
zoey says ...
"For most men this is a deadend lifestyle. It has much more to do with the sexual revolution of the 60's than Bill Murray."
I honestly don't see the sexual revolution having much to do with it. Newsweek had a good cover story a while back on "tweeners"... men and women in the mid to late twenties who bounce from job to job, not quite knowing what to do with themselves. The theme of the article, which I agree with, is that boomers produced kids who were raised with high self esteem, but not with the necessity of basing that esteem on something tangible.
I ask my niece what she wants to be and she says a rock star, an artist, or a writer. Of course she watches reality tv like Supernova and listens to Paris Hilton's first single and figures this is doable without any preparation or talent. She watches MTV's My Sweet Sixteen and all the empty-headed "me-obsessed" girls on there, and figures maybe I'll buy a lottery ticket and skip the whole job thing. She watches the "Real World" and figures that is more to her liking than going to school or working hard towards a goal.
Is very discouraging... Somehow I don't think that workers in New Delhi who are gobbling up outsourced jobs are watching the same programming.
A final note on the "sexual revolution"... it's been pretty well established by behavorial psychologists that men subconsciously seek out women who are sexually capable of ensuring their dna gets spread into future generations (young women... fresh eggs so to speak), while women instinctively go for the "provider" types... the ones who may be more willing and capable of helping her with the kids. I agree with Nicole that there are a good number of "cads" in the world, but there is another side to the equation... the non-cads who got dumped for cads with better prospects.
Posted by zoey at July 7, 2006 7:46 AM
comment #13
Ju-osh says ...
Wow, what a wonderful read! There's a great exchange of equally interesting ideas going on in the second half of this comments section. Not only that, but it looks like the term "cads" might be making a comeback! I'm glad I stopped by.
Posted by Ju-osh at July 7, 2006 8:39 AM
comment #14
David says ...
I agree Nichol. I am stuck in a minimum wage job at 35 because of the sexual revolution. For one brief moment, I thought it was because I had no ambition and was lazy. Curse you, feminists, curse you!
Posted by David at July 7, 2006 9:57 AM
comment #15
Nicol D says ...
Zoey,
I do not disagree with anything you wrote. It does not negate what I wrote, it is just all part of one big cultural stew.
I agree with you and your assessment of biology and who is drawn to what type. It is human nature.
The problem is, on university campi feminist theory says it is not science and that there are no differences in gender and it is all cultural.
Hence you have a culture since the sexual revolution which directly goes against human nature.
Every one loses in the long run.
Maureen Dowd's new book is a great portrait of an aging feminist who bought into all of the lies of the sexual revolution and is now a pretty lonely and bitter woman.
Posted by Nicol D at July 7, 2006 10:06 AM
comment #16
Daniel Zelter says ...
Why do people keep blaming an ideology which helped women vote and allowed them to make their own decisions with their bodies and their lives for the actions of men? I thought choice is the cornerstone of capitalism.
Posted by Daniel Zelter at July 7, 2006 10:08 AM
comment #17
Nicol D says ...
Daniel,
No one is blaming an ideology which 'gave women the right to vote'.
But the culture of modern day feminism, which goes well beyond equal pay for equal work and touches on issues of destruction of the family or the 'all sex is rape' type of feminism of people such as Catherine Mackinnon has had repercussions for everyone...including men, children and women themselves.
"I thought choice is the cornerstone of capitalism. "
Captialism is an economic system and has nothing at all to do with 'choice' in the terms that you are speaking of with regards to abortion.
That issue, whether one is for or against, is another issue entirely with its own repercussions.
Posted by Nicol D at July 7, 2006 10:44 AM
comment #18
richard crawford says ...
Murray and Keanu. Both wonderful.
Posted by richard crawford at July 7, 2006 11:47 AM
comment #19
Daniel Zelter says ...
Nicol: "Captialism is an economic system and has nothing at all to do with 'choice' in the terms that you are speaking of with regards to abortion."
Actually, by choice, I was referring to the choice of careers besides home-making. But abortion in an economic context can be viewed as a choice to save the state money in supporting an unwanted child and give the mother more economic opportunities which would be hampered from continuing to have that child. It fits perfectly with the tenets of laissez-faire.
Posted by Daniel Zelter at July 7, 2006 12:59 PM
comment #20
Steve C. says ...
Nicole D - sometimes it's amusing reading you because I know that sooner or later you are going to trot out some false cliche of the fascist right to buttress your arugment.
Case in point: "...the 'all sex is rape' type of feminism of people such as Catherine Mackinnon..."
Wrong. This has been debunked so many times that it is now a great indicator of those stubbornly pursuing the conservative dogma, facts be damned.
She never said it. But it has been repeated by such conservative blowhards like Cal Thomas, so that they Dittoheads keep repeating it.
For those who want to see it effective debunked (and also debunk the counter myth that Andrea Dworkin said it), visit:
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinno.htm
Posted by Steve C. at July 7, 2006 7:36 PM
comment #21
Bob says ...
I'm of the mind that we won't REALLY know what Clerks 2 "is" or "means" until we see what comes AFTER it, for Smith. There's two things this movie COULD be, the larger scheme of his career:
A.) "Oh no! My first and ONLY project outside of my self-created universe with it's obsessed ready-made fanbase was an incredible disaster! Time to run back to the Fortress of Solitude and just keep making spin-offs and cartoons and comics out of the Askewniverse from now on."
B.) "Y'know, maybe I got off-track by letting the Askew stuff spiral off into self-referential goofiness. Maybe if I go back to the basics of this whole thing and put a REAL ending on it instead of a jokey one, I can move-on properly."
So far, though... it looks more like "A."
Posted by Bob at July 8, 2006 10:54 AM