Just a couple of guys sitting in a restaurant, talking it out. It's not just the acting in this scene (and the fact that the actors are so legendary-iconic), but the writing. The dialogue is straight, clean...entirely about fundamentals.

It wasn't quite the same during a sit-down with the creator of this scene, Michael Mann, a couple of weeks ago at his office in West Los Angeles. The idea was to talk about the new Taschen book about Mann and his career -- a luscious visual smorgasbord (the photos are choice in a very special off-center way) coupled with insightful, exceptionally well-sculpted analysis by F.X. Feeney . It turned out to be more of a casual chit-chat, although a fascinating one. 40, 45 minutes...the minutes just flew.
Mann just wanted to relax and talk, which meant no recording or taking pictures ...cool. I didn't take many notes as we went along; I asked about everything; there was no vein to it.
So to get myself rolling on a piece, I wrote Feeney and suggested we do an online q & a like we did before about his Roman Polanski book. So I wrote some ques- tions and he sent back the answers last night. But before I run it, consider this graph from Feeney's first chapter:
"Over the course of the eight feature films he has directed since 1971, Michael Mann has shown himself, time and again, to be a rigorous, honest dramatist, a maker of solid worlds. So much so that in America, at least, he tends to be underrated. The most respectful of his critics define him (a bit too simply) as a realist. Certainly, Mann seeks authenticity above all...but perhaps the most accurate word for him is ' synthesist '...[an artist who] immerses himself thor- oughly, breaking the truth of a given topic down to its working parts, throwing away whatever rings false."
I don't just love Michael Mann's films -- I want to live in them. I want the clarity, the decisiveness, the certainty, the edge, the coolness...all of that stuff. A lot of people feel this way. Guys, mostly, but whatever. Here's the back-and-forth...

JW: I notice Mann is actually listed as a co-author on the Taschen website.
FXF: That's true, and fair to say. The book has three authors: I wrote the text; Paul Duncan (who also edits the entire filmmaker series for Taschen) chose the photos and directed the layouts; and Michael Mann was not only the book's subject, he took an extremely active role in its production -- providing Paul in-depth access to his archives, inviting me to witness him at work, indeed making time to sit with me for hours of in-depth interviews.
JW: How did you get that kind of cooperation from Mann? I remember you mentioning when we spoke at CineVegas that there had been a previous attempt at a Mann/Taschen book, which you were not part of.
FXF: I even mention it in the first chapter of the book, by way of dramatizing the high-pressure challenges in store for any critic who takes on a creative individual as exacting and enigmatic as Michael Mann. Beyond that, it's not worth mentioning: Read the book! I have a strong take on Mann, which Taschen was willing to support. I had just completed the Polanski book in April 2004 when the Mann assignment came back into the open. Paul Duncan and I enjoy a good working relationship; I dove in. We were realistic and flexible. We figured that if my essay got rejected by Mann, then to hell with it...so much for a Taschen-Mann book.
But as it turned out, Mann was engaged by what I wrote. "Engaged" as opposed to flattered -- near as I can tell, he's immune to flattery; what he seems to crave instead is experience and information -- and once engaged, he opened his doors to me. I spent much of the summer of Collateral (2004) in intensive conversation with him. My essay posed explicit and implicit questions he would either knock down or answer. As I hope is plain in the finished book, if there was a disagreement, we each stood our respective grounds -- Michael getting the last word in most cases. I was more interested in what he had to say.

JW: What were the so called "high pressure challenges for any critic" who takes on Mann?
FXF: Only one -- but an important one. Too many well-meaning critics and fans describe Mann as "a subverter of genres," as a kind of movie buff hell-bent on reinvigorating the crime film. In his own view, he is anything but. "Genre" is a word for which he has no personal use.
JW: If Mann doesn't "subvert genres," then why are Thief, Heat, Collateral and Miami Vice all superior examples of "the crime movie"?
FXF: Because Mann sees them as pictures drawn from life. As I say, he's interested in first-hand experience. He comes out of a tough neighborhood in Chicago, has gotten to know cops and criminals, and is himself by nature what I call "a stealth non-conformist." By that I mean, Mann has a very self-directed, fundamentally rebellious nature, yet paradoxically he is skilled at blending in. Small wonder his heroes and villains alike so often live under-cover; Mann respects that what is least dispensible about a person's character is that which thrives in private -- in secret, even.
When other directors of his generation (Francis Coppola, Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, George Lucas) were establishing their flamboyant personal styles and vivid reputations through their great films of the 1970s, Mann was playing it close to the vest, working in television, a place few self-respecting auteurs would deign to spend time in those wasteland days, developing his craft as a writer-director, above all mastering the business as a producer.
By the time he made his debut feature Thief (1981), he was already full grown as an artist -- and Thief is one deeply realized work, down to its tiniest fibers. Somebody once asked Mann how he exerted such control over a film's final cut so early in his career, and he replied: "Because I cut the checks." Amen. Or, as Crockett marvels of an adversary, early in the new Miami Vice film: "Those are skill sets."

JW: What would you say is the personal trait that stands out above all others with Mann?
FXF: His mantra is "get it right." By that he means, get your facts right, insure that your aesthetic decisions in making a movie follow what is actual and logical in the world at large. Mann has a strong sensual streak -- music is clearly a deep (if not his deepest) source of inspiration -- and a high susceptibility to visual beauty, yet he never lets his appetites for these get the upper hand. Everything in his work is subordinated to concrete use, either in terms of what interests the characters, or those dynamics which reveal the deeper character of the world to the onlooker.
Here's one vivid example from my encounters with him. He was leafing through my Polanski book -- attentive, silent, un-judging -- but when he closed it, asked me one question: "What did Polanski's father do for a living?" Damn. I had to admit, I didn't know -- Mann had stumped the band on his first try. Yet this is such a simple question, and an important one, if you think about it -- "how the world works" is best revealed by the specific work people do -- and I had forgotten to ask it.
JW: What did Polanski's father do for a living?
FXF: Polanski's father was an artist in Paris, and when he returned to Krakow in the late 1930s, it was to take an office job at a factory owned by relatives. (Thanks for asking, Michael!)
JW: Like all big-name directors, Mann has a coterie of journalist and film-critic loyalists who think he's one of the greatest and stand up for him time and again. I am one of these, frankly. I've sensed for a long time now -- unquestionably since Heat -- a profound respect for the guy, and a kind of corresponding allegiance.

FXF: My sense is that Mann characteristically makes movies that are critic-proof -- he thinks and works everything through to such a degree that few can ever seriously quarrel with his intentions or his technique. Back in the 1980s a few reviewers tried to wisecrack him into a corner over the success of Miami Vice on TV, belittling him "a glossy stylist," and so on. I was guilty of this myself, if memory serves -- but over time, the films have held up so solidly to repeated viewing that we cutups in the peanut gallery have been obliged to acknowledge, at last and belatedly, that yes, here is a giant, ingenious body of work in progress.
JW: What was the turning point for you?
FXF: The Insider (1999). Of course, I'd admired Manhunter, Last of the Mohicans and Heat as individual films -- but it was watching Mann penetrate the contemporary world of corporate authority, in which matters of life and death are decided over desks and behind closed doors, that the living totality and cumulative value of his filmography became unmistakable, and a source of abiding amazement. Others felt the same way, I know.
Since that time, Mann's only difficulties with critics have arisen out of certain specific expectations that sometimes get raised, extraneous to the intrinsic quality of the films themselves.
For example, Ali (2001) -- if you grew up feeling emotionally involved with the real Muhammed Ali, or were enchanted as most critics were by the late `90s documentary about him called When We Were Kings, then accepting Will Smith in the role, or revisiting scenes from the life of Malcolm X so vividly covered in Spike Lee's Malcolm X, became a bit of a stumbling block -- at least on a first viewing. (Also, the film opened two months after 9/11, when both the viewing public and the very practice of moviegoing were heavily depressed.) See Ali now on DVD, and its overriding virtues quietly but forcefully assert themselves -- Will Smith's performance being one of them; I think it's the best thing he has ever done.

What's more, you have a portrait of America in the 1960s and `70s that for my money is unsurpassed in terms of its authentic detail and atmosphere. Mann intelligently, skillfully reveals Ali as a leader on a par with Malcolm X, Martin Luther King, and Patrice Lamumba -- a lesser filmmaker would have been content to celebrate his greatness as a boxer.
JW: How did Mann's manner with you evolve as you got to know him?
FXF: No change. Steady, steady, steady. He knows who he is. Over time, anyone who works with him is privileged to glimpse a person of deep emotional sensitivity and compassionate awareness within the tough-guy fortress-of-solitude that is his workaday persona -- he would not be able to create characters so deeply if this quality were not there -- but at the same time, he is completely unsentimental. When he expresses a feeling, you trust it, even if it stings. There's nothing willed or manipulative -- no bullshit -- about what he's telling you.
JW: What do you think of The Keep...honestly? That film, to me, is the runt of the litter...almost the bizarre aberration that doesn't belong in the family.
FXF: You ought to see it again, Jeff -- as with all of Mann, it only gets better. Yet of all his films, The Keep is the only one where you sense Mann himself was unresolved about how to dramatize certain things. As I say in the book, he hadn't yet found a way to use the audience's imagination as an ally when dealing with monstrous evil -- ergo, he shows "the monster."
It's interesting that one film later, in Manhunter, he successfully trusts that the Unseen is even more terrifying than what we do see. Hence, Mann removed the dragon tattoo that he originally intended to be an outward expression of torment on the skin of the serial killer, Francis Dollarhyde. "It would trivialize his struggle," he told actor Tom Noonan. So we are forced to imagine the monstrosity inside Dollarhyde, and there it is. But The Keep is an honorable effort to achieve the same illumination.

JW: Is Mann his own singular invention, or does he stem from a tradition of distinctive realist directors?
FXF: He loves all the hardworking explorers -- Kubrick, Pabst, George Stevens -- but he is his own man, as an artist. Life influences him far more than other artists.
JW: The film that turned Mann on the most when he was young -- the one that made him decide to be a filmmaker, was G.W. Pabst's Joyless Street. Which I've never seen. Have you?
FXF: No. And I guess this is like not knowing what Roman Polanski's father did for a living. You've stumped the band, Jeff! But I've seen enough of Pabst's other work (Pandora's Box; Diary of a Lost Giorl; Threepenny Opera) to feel a lucid sense of what so excited Mann about Joyless Street at age 21 that he decided on the spot to become a filmmaker -- Pabst is one who never imposes himself visibly on the story he is telling. He instead yields great power out of the characters, and his own observation of life.
JW: When Pacino asks DeNiro in Heat if he ever wanted "a regular-type life," De Niro doesn't say (as you relate in the book), "What is that, barbecues?" He says, "The fuck is that... barbecues and ball games?" And Pacino, almost smiling, waits a beat and a half and goes, "Yeah."
FXF: I wasn't quoting the line in its entirety; I was synopsizing, touching on specifics to make a larger point -- and I only had 25,000 words. There are never enough!
JW: What film do you consider to be his best, and why? If you can't name just one, try to at least give me a tie between two films.

FXF: My favorite is Last of the Mohicans -- a stunning evocation of early America. Everything that is greatest about Mann -- his sense of history, his love of women, his sensitivity to the intricacies of motive (even Magua the terrifying renegade has reasons for being so brutal; white men killed his wife and children); Mann's total commitment to getting everything right, down to the least corset and chord of music. And then -- selfishly -- I love that period of American history. There simply haven't been enough films about it.
Posted by Jeffrey Wells on October 11, 2006 at 12:31 PM
comment #1
Alan Cerny
says ...
I know THE KEEP definitely isn't one of Mann's more important films, but I do remember it having a distinct visual style that made the horror of it seem very effective. It's been a long time since I've seen it, and it's not available on DVD. I remember one shot where the camera pans a long way through darkness from a crawlspace in the dungeon and this... something... comes through the darkness and attacks someone in the crawlspace. I remember it being quite scary and effective. There's a dreamlike quality to the movie that's hard to duplicate. It's not a *good* film but it's an interesting one.
Posted by Alan Cerny
at October 11, 2006 2:52 PM
comment #2
L.B.
says ...
Good call, Alan. I'm not a fan of that entire movie, but that shot is something that comes back to me on a very regular basis.
Posted by L.B.
at October 11, 2006 3:01 PM
comment #3
actionman
says ...
i am a HUGE Michael Mann fan and as much as The Keep isn't in the same league as all of his other masterpieces, it's still an interesting, unique effort. Why the hell it isn't on dvd is baffling, considering all of the fucking junk that get's released these days. I had to track down a pan-and-scan (which looked fucking awful) video at an LA-area hole-in-the-wall video store. The new Taschen book is incredible and for $25, an amazing bargain. I look forward to a Michael Mann movie almost more than any other working director (with the exception of Scorsese) and I can't wait to see what's up his sleeve next. I just heard that there will be an unrated directors cut of Miami Vice hitting dvd this december....AMAZING!!!
Posted by actionman
at October 11, 2006 3:13 PM
comment #4
christian
says ...
mann just reminds me of an american ridley scott minus the fantasia and plus the testosterone.
i mean, miami vice was literally laughed out of theaters due to an unwavering lack of irony in the ridiculous nature of the film's title and total lack of character depth.
he does make pretty pictures tho i'm not sure i want them all of sulking fuzz chins cast in blue light.
that said, where's THE KEEP on dvd?
Posted by christian
at October 11, 2006 3:28 PM
comment #5
christian
says ...
"My sense is that Mann characteristically makes movies that are critic-proof -- he thinks and works everything through to such a degree that few can ever seriously quarrel with his intentions or his technique."
really? i can't seriously quarrel with lingering shots of a miscast colin farrell trying to look stoic or that coyote crossing the street backed by a hilarious faux-80's alt-rock in COLLATERAL?
try me.
Posted by christian
at October 11, 2006 3:32 PM
comment #6
Mike Ock
says ...
I wish all these journalists would stop kissing Michael's Mann's ass, and fucking grow a pair.
Miami Vice was miscast, poorly written, and overlong by about half an hr.
Posted by Mike Ock
at October 11, 2006 3:47 PM
comment #7
actionman
says ...
u clearly don't understand the filmic universe in which michael mann operates in. saying that colin farrell was miscast in miami vice is asinine...he was PERFECTLY cast as Crockett. and i wouldn't say that the movie was "laughed out of theaters" either...pretty ridiculous comment there...a movie can't be laughed out of theaters if it makes over $100 million worldwide. And if you don't get the symbolism of the wolf crossing the street in Collateral, then I pity you as a movie-watcher.
Posted by actionman
at October 11, 2006 3:51 PM
comment #8
jeffmcm
says ...
Actionman, maybe you should go into greater detail about this 'filmic universe' and Farrell's perfect casting and educate us, instead of merely pitying us.
I thought Miami Vice was one of the summer's biggest snoozes. The gun battle at the end of The Departed puts the gun battle in Mann's movie to shame, then kicks it in the stomach and spits on its face.
Posted by jeffmcm
at October 11, 2006 3:58 PM
comment #9
Mr. Muckle
says ...
Nice interview, JW.
Posted by Mr. Muckle
at October 11, 2006 4:07 PM
comment #10
actionman
says ...
jeffmcm--i dont need to elaborate or defend myself. we've battled about MV in the past, so let's just agree to disagree...i have better things to do with my time than get into a pissing contest with someone like you.
Posted by actionman
at October 11, 2006 4:15 PM
comment #11
Mr. Gittes
says ...
Jeff, why no questions about the "mixed" response to Miami Vice. What did Mann feel abou that?
Posted by Mr. Gittes
at October 11, 2006 4:26 PM
comment #12
MASON
says ...
You tell him, actionman. And make sure your boss's water is room temperature, not cold or it's your ass.
Posted by MASON
at October 11, 2006 5:13 PM
comment #13
actionman
says ...
what are u talking about Mason?
Posted by actionman
at October 11, 2006 5:31 PM
comment #14
JohnCope
says ...
At this point I don't think anything anyone says about Vice will change people's minds. I personally adore it and have explained why to an exhausting degree on other forums. But I doubt that any of that or any other smart critiques would change minds. People seem to have settled into their respective camps with this one and it may take a serious retrospective reconsideration to have any effect on swaying attitudes. Interestingly, some of the most fascinating reviews have been well written, smart pans from people who have really thought the experience through. Ultimately, these particular critics simply don't like what Mann is doing and yet much of what they see as a negative I and others see as a positive. I won't say that history will salvage Vice's reputation as that depends on what voices are heard and considered persuasive in shaping consensus. But those of us who hold this picture dear and see great, significant worth in it as to the future of cinema (and here I'm not just talking about the DV) will continue to make its case when asked by those willing to listen and be receptive to alternative notions of accomplishment.
Posted by JohnCope
at October 11, 2006 7:06 PM
comment #15
jeffmcm
says ...
I don't want to get into a 'pissing contest' with anyone. I have been bewildered by the adoration the movie has gotten. Maybe JohnCope has spent a lot of time writing about it, but I have not seen any useful or halfway-convincing defenses of the movie since it came out and believe me, I really would like to see one, and every time I ask the only thing people seem to be able to say is 'it rocks'.
Posted by jeffmcm
at October 11, 2006 7:10 PM
comment #16
fnt
says ...
"[B]e receptive to alternative notions of accomplishment."
What the hell does that mean? I have an alternative notion of a movie being good -- it not being good.
A true fan of film can acknowledge when a director makes missteps, rather than trying to scavenge at crumbs.
Posted by fnt
at October 11, 2006 8:06 PM
comment #17
Hallick
says ...
I'll acknowledge ("A true fan of film can acknowledge when a director makes missteps..." - fnt). I love a lot of what's in Miami Vice; and I think that dismissing it wholeheartedly means pissing away some eternally great footage and scenes, which resemble nothing like "crumbs".
Overall though, it doesn't come together, even if some of the pieces that never met are fascinating. Gong Li's part in the story didn't work for me; Colin Farell was just good enough, but that's a minus when you're saying it about the lead character; and the central issue of an undercover cop falling for an asian femme fatale was done already on Mann's series Robbery Homicide Division, to nearly the same shruggy effect.
Posted by Hallick
at October 11, 2006 10:51 PM
comment #18
Thrudvangar
says ...
I wonder what The Departed would be like if Mann had directed it.
Posted by Thrudvangar
at October 12, 2006 3:11 AM
comment #19
christian
says ...
"a movie can't be laughed out of theaters if it makes over $100 million worldwide."
then you've never seen WILD WILD WEST...which was so bad it couldn't even be laughed at IN theaters...
Posted by christian
at October 12, 2006 8:04 AM
comment #20
rayfanning
says ...
does anybody know what mann's next project will be?
Posted by rayfanning
at October 12, 2006 9:25 AM
comment #21
actionman
says ...
the black dahlia was laughed out of theaters. Miami Vice was not.
Posted by actionman
at October 12, 2006 9:52 AM
comment #22
christian
says ...
the trailer for miami vice was laughed at by every audience i saw it with. just saying.
and along my own stifled giggles, my friends (who were dying to see this) all reported non-stop laughter every time colin farrell opened his mouth. not a scientific poll but the box office reflects the public not being intoxicated by the visual fumes. unless it was laughing gas.
and i do like some of mann's work, i just don't feel that it adds up to something other than tough guys having a tough day. has there been a single memorable female in his films?
Posted by christian
at October 12, 2006 10:52 AM
comment #23
Ju-osh
says ...
Nice interview, Jeff. I'll be picking up this book a.s.a.p.
Re: Miami Vice
I thought that Miami Vice's Li/Farrel dance scene was a fucking cringe-worthy moment in an otherwise enjoyable film:
An asian and a caucasian go to Cuba, where they wow all of the locals (if not exactly 'clearing the dance floor', then damn near creating their own small stage upon it) with their superior take on the locals' own dance style!
Honestly, it reminded me of those old Shirley Temple movies where Shirley walks into the slaves' quarters and shows them how to 'really' tapdance.
Posted by Ju-osh
at October 12, 2006 11:07 AM
comment #24
christian
says ...
i think mann would have been fine not calling the film MIAMI VICE as it just carries so much 80's baggage and nobody else mentions the absolute lack of chemistry between farell and foxx.
but ju-osh you're dead on about shirley temple.
Posted by christian
at October 12, 2006 11:41 AM
comment #25
rayfanning
says ...
does anybody know what mann's next project will be?
Posted by rayfanning
at October 12, 2006 1:07 PM
comment #26
Sharpel007
says ...
scan threw this thread
http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81547&highlight=miami+vice
lots of discussion both ways
Posted by Sharpel007
at October 12, 2006 1:31 PM
comment #27
actionman
says ...
rayfanning--Mann is producing the FBI thriller THE KINGDOM with Peter Berg directing...not sure if he's announced his next directing gig...
Posted by actionman
at October 12, 2006 1:46 PM
comment #28
Rich S.
says ...
IMDB shows two directorial projects:
Arms and the Man, about international plutonium trafficking and,
The Few, with Tom Cruise as a WWII pilot who defied U.S. neutrality rules to fly planes against the Germans.
Posted by Rich S.
at October 12, 2006 1:55 PM
comment #29
Midwest Doug
says ...
Count me in with FX on Last of the Mohicans being the best of Mann. Man, I love that movie.
Any mention of The Jericho Mile in the Taschen book?
Posted by Midwest Doug
at October 12, 2006 2:08 PM
comment #30
rayfanning
says ...
@actionman and Rich S.
thanks. i heard somewhere, that "the few" is dead. mann may have difficulties to find financial backing for his next project.
Posted by rayfanning
at October 12, 2006 4:27 PM
comment #31
OddDuck
says ...
I know this is a thread about Mann, but the comment about Mann producing and Peter Berg directing an FBI thriller has me a little excited. Sure the Rundown was pretty lame, but I thought Friday Night Lights (the movie) was a HUGE step up in filmmaking maturity and by far one of the best sports movies in recent memory. If Berg can keep some of the same sensibilities (and with Mann producing, I would think he can), we could end up with a really cool FBI flick.
Also, I am so buying this Mann book. Thanks for letting me know it's out.
Posted by OddDuck
at October 12, 2006 5:22 PM
comment #32
Sharpel007
says ...
Well to those who pay attention Vice passed 150 mil a week or so ago thanks the rest of the world understanding him better than his own country, it still has not opened in china and some other markets and is expexted to pass 100 mil foriegn, making it the second best grossing Mann movie of all time and thats not counting DVD.
Posted by Sharpel007
at October 12, 2006 10:00 PM
comment #33
OddDuck
says ...
Well that's good news I guess, but the bloated budget pretty much negates the value of that worldwide number, eh? I just hope -- and pretty much assume -- that Mann's reputation and history will allow him to crank out films in the way he likes. That said, he's got to find a way to make movies like Vice for a lot less than what it took this time.
All I know is I'll be buying the DVD on release day. In recent years my DVD purchasing has pretty much gone to nothing, due to netflix, but if there were ever safe buys for almost assured repeated viewing, Mann movies fit that bill perfectly.
Posted by OddDuck
at October 13, 2006 2:44 AM
comment #34
christian
says ...
there's no reason on god's green earth that a film about miami cops should cost 1oo million plus dollars. none.
Posted by christian
at October 13, 2006 10:26 AM
comment #35
L.B.
says ...
They could have softened that a bit by charging Farrell to be in it. Not a bad idea for all the box office he's good for.
Posted by L.B.
at October 13, 2006 2:57 PM
comment #36
mizoguchi
says ...
This is either the funniest exchange I have ever read or the saddest:
JW: Is Mann his own singular invention, or does he stem from a tradition of distinctive realist directors?
FXF: He loves all the hardworking explorers -- Kubrick, Pabst, George Stevens -- but he is his own man, as an artist. Life influences him far more than other artists.
JW: The film that turned Mann on the most when he was young -- the one that made him decide to be a filmmaker, was G.W. Pabst's Joyless Street. Which I've never seen. Have you?
FXF: No.
A pretty sad commentary on the state of film education. Two professional critics who have seen ever Michael Mann film but can't be bothered to look at one of the most famous and influential silent films ever made. Pathetic.
Posted by mizoguchi
at October 16, 2006 8:10 AM