comment #1

quietly watching says ...

Unless you're an accomplished software engineer (having a degree does not equate to accomplished) you can not understand the complexity of creating and refining a modern operating system. Vista is many times more complex than OS X, any variation of Linux, and flavor of Unix. Why? Because the system is so open and compatible that trillions upon trillions of combinations of products work in relative harmony within a framework latticed from millions of lines of code.

Why does Linux not *seem* to have these issues? Because no one, especially the virus writers, really care to. The Mac? Please...the Mac is a closed, tightly controlled system with very few open opportunities to innovate within (if they had grown bigger and dominated the desktop, this would have been an absolute monopoly which would have been disdained much more acutely than Microsoft). Yet, to assume that these flaws do not exist within other systems is absolute folly. The reason that they are not more often exploited is, quite bluntly, envy, which has bred hate (technohate) on a scale unknown before, and lack of popularity amongst desktop users. Why attack Linux or the Mac when only a small portion of computer users rely on those products? Virus and malware writers and much more interested in infecting and affecting the greatest audience possible, and that means, on the desktop side, all versions of Windows (on the server side, it's more against Linux and, to a lesser extent, Windows Server).

Back to the point, these issues DO exist in every operating system, and will continue to until such a time that human error is eliminated. Which is to say, never.

Look...I'm tired. Santa was busy all night, and is now falling asleep on the couch. Maybe I'll revisit this issue later.

Till then, Merry Christmas!

comment #2

Eric says ...

^^Microsoft apologist^^

comment #3

OregonEd says ...

We had to get rid of our Mac-based video editing system, because our entire network is "Windows-based" and the IT Dept. didn't want to have Mac's on the network. This isn't necessarilly a knock on Windows, but I'd rather edit on a Mac. IT thinks if it's a computer it needs to be a PC and operate and follow the protocols like all of the other PC's in the building, except we don't use PC's, we use "video appliances" and they really need to operate independently; even though they are on the network.

comment #4

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

Windows IS the in-house problem.

Funny how a modern operating system is too complex for the richest company in the world to pull it off... but others manage to do it. GM was saying the same things in the 70s-- making cars is soooo hard! The real problem lies in the structure of the bloated company and the lack of commitment to quality and outstanding customer experience, not in the difficulty of the task.

comment #5

christian says ...

i feel little pity for ms and their monopolostic ways...not that those greedy mac folk are better. but fuck pc.

comment #6

mitch says ...

This has to do with movies or hollywood how? Yet, since it is here I'll bitch a bit. Besides, I design software, and actually work at a rather famous company, so I can give a reasonable 2 cents.

Quiet: Reasonable response. Windows has its pros and cons, and everything in between. Ballsy move to support Microsoft in this forum. Yet it is obvious that Microsoft suffers from some quality issues. I'm glad to see that they're offering outside companies a chance to tackle the OS before it's fully shipped. Hey, Bill, no more blue screens, ok?

Eric: nice comment. Noticed that you didn't include any insight. Typical basher: weak response with no facts. Next time bring your A game or don't come at all.

OregonEd: I don't blame you for wanting to edit on a Mac. Fewer problems overall. However, your IT department shouldn't limit you. I'd ask them, point blank, why are you costing our company extra money by requiring me to use something that I find to be less productive? You'll get a blank stare and some bogus answer. I'd push this up through management.

Mgmax: you obviously have no idea about what you are writing. No company in history has created in interpretive/abstractive layer that works with so many varied processes on such a vast scale. I'll give you credit though: your ambiguous answer reads like it is well thought out. 'Cept it ain't. Of all the answers, yours is really the worst as you're acting knowledgable on the subject but you're just poser, nothing more. GM? Why not NASA on their ability to place man on Mars? Wait, why not the entire medical community on why cancer has yet to be cured?

Christian: ah, my dear Christian. I will still gladly take you into battle, my friend. But, seriously, how do you really feel about the subject?

Finally, to Jeff: Under what header does this thread fall under cinema, or Hollywood, or theater? I mean, really. I'm willing to bet you're using a Windows run PC. So, what's your purpose? When are you going to spout off about adhesive diapers?

And to everyone else: pencil and paper, baby...

comment #7

christian says ...

i'm wit' ya on the pen and paper...

course i just got a nano ipod...

comment #8

zoey says ...

I always thought MS's use of the Stones' "Start Me Up" in ads was particularly apt if only they continued to the refrain: "You make a grown man cry." Every release has non-techies like me banking their heads on the desk.

comment #9

zoey says ...

I always thought MS's use of the Stones' "Start Me Up" in ads was particularly apt if only they continued to the refrain: "You make a grown man cry." Every release has non-techies like me banging their heads on the desk.

comment #10

zoey says ...

sorry for the double post...

comment #11

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

Mitch, when you actually answer any of my points instead of throwing up a bunch of bluster, I'll answer your response.

As it is, you're sort of saying "Don't blame Microsoft for not curing cancer, it's only been done by Apple, Sun, AT&T, IBM two or three times-- who could possibly expect the richest company in the world to do it too?"

comment #12

mitch says ...

Mgmax: you equated GM's refusal to build great cars in the 70's with the complexity involved in designing a stable, mostly API open, legacy minded modern Operating System. That alone tells me (and any other kinda software savvy individual) that you know nothing about software design. At least when you write such a poorly designed wedge comparison between such disperate industries you look silly enough. Basically, you're harmless. Thanks for making it easier for me, though.

But, I do admit to liking this:

"The real problem lies in the structure of the bloated company and the lack of commitment to quality and outstanding customer experience, not in the difficulty of the task."

Really? You have first hand knowledge of the inner workings at Microsoft? If you do, tell us something intimate. C'mon then, spill it for us. We all really want to know. First hand knowledge only, please. The mindless blatherings of your typical blogger or a smear piece written by a mac or linux or unix addict does not count. Tell us all how *you* know Microsoft isn't trying their absolute best.

I'll ask another question, though: Can anyone give me the real reason Microsoft postponed Vista for more than a year? I mean, why would such a lukewarm, bloated, lazy company such as Microsoft endure a delay when it isn't committed to excellence and is all about the here and now and selling sub-optimally designed products?

comment #13

transmogrifier says ...

"Really? You have first hand knowledge of the inner workings at Microsoft? If you do, tell us something intimate. C'mon then, spill it for us. We all really want to know. First hand knowledge only, please. The mindless blatherings of your typical blogger or a smear piece written by a mac or linux or unix addict does not count. Tell us all how *you* know Microsoft isn't trying their absolute best."

I don't know, I suspect a customer may be able to answer this as well as anyone working there. Right? Or are you just a tiny bit blinkered?

"I'll ask another question, though: Can anyone give me the real reason Microsoft postponed Vista for more than a year? I mean, why would such a lukewarm, bloated, lazy company such as Microsoft endure a delay when it isn't committed to excellence and is all about the here and now and selling sub-optimally designed products?"

Maybe because they lazily assumed they would have the time to assemble the product, and then realised their talk didn't match their actions? Or perhaps you're right. But you're basically as close-minded as the people you are (weakly) trying to put in place.

Verdict: you have brought your C- game to the table. You aren't the worst debater here, but you're desparately clawing your way down to the depths.

comment #14

murdocdv says ...

Very interesting to see Jeff posting about Windows Vista of all things. Jeff, I don't know if you are fond of Windows or not, your posting leads me to believe you are waffling on continuing to use Windows (I know you have been using a Windows PC), Vista seems to be inspiring little confidence.

In short, just get a Mac. Don't get dragged down by the so called debate above. If you get a Mac, clearly you get OS X 10.4 "Tiger" now, or wait a few months until OS X 10.5 "Leopard" is released. Even if for some reason you didn't like OS X or Vista was the greatest thing ever, with the new Intel Macs you can run Windows either within OS X with Parallels or natively just like you can on any Dell or HP, but computers from those manufacturers are limited to Windows or Linux only. Macs can run everything, so why limit your options and stay locked into Windows with a Dell or HP?

comment #15

mitch says ...

First: I'm not advocating Microsoft or Microsoft products. I'm arguing against factless attacks.

Second: Trans: I'm asking for facts. Yet, now I'm closed-minded (according to you). What have I said that makes me closed-minded? I already know you won't have a good answer for that, so you'll deflect. That's ok. But, I did notice you wrote nothing to Mgmax about his/her statement. Why is that?

Third: Murdocdy: I would not assume that a Mac will run Vista very well out of the gate. And a Windows on a Mac doesn't work well for everything. See www.macwindows.com for some good and current info on the subject.

Lastly: I love OS X, and I love my Mac G5. But I don't love them blindly.

Closed systmes are awesome for reliability and operability, and Apple has done an amazing job keeping their product relevant and exciting when they could have cried uncle long ago. I'm damn glad they continue to fight the good fight. A market place with options is a marketplace worth having.

comment #16

murdocdv says ...

Mitch: I am running Windows on OS X in Parallels all day long to do my Windows development day job, no problems. Every release of Parallels just gets better and better, amazing software and the speed that team is innovating is staggering. I don't know what "problems" you are referring to, but I personally haven't seen them. Windows in Boot Camp is no different from Windows on Dell, the only difference is the drivers. I would count on Vista running just like XP on a Mac with a new release of BootCamp (Apple's driver package for Windows) either at the time Vista launches to retail on 1/29 or as part of Leopard.

Also, this is in no way blind love for Mac, if you were referring to me. You look at your options and if a solution works for you and is better than the other choices, I don't think there is anything wrong with explaining that to people. With Intel Macs, I can run all the software in the world (Web, Mac, Windows, if Linux had an app that wasn't on the others) and compromise on nothing. Only way I can imagine not buying Macs for the foreseeable future was if suddenly no software for OS X was better than anything else, they couldn't also run Windows, or the industrial design got hit by the ugly stick. Given that Vista took 5 years to get out the door, is still a poor copy of OS X, and Apple releases OS X and their applications much more rapidly than MS has the seeming ability to, I don't see Windows becoming my main operating system again in the foreseeable future. I am no lemming though, if Apple doesn't keep on track, I will start looking for something else, but I lived with Windows by itself for 13 years, and nothing with OS X has been anywhere as bad as Windows 95,98, or XP.

comment #17

christian says ...

i just don't like bill gates. do people forget that microsoft was branded a monopoly? go watch gates' rainman-like video deposition; he rocks back and forth feigning ignorance in the face of non-computer reality. creep. and yes, he gives millions to charity. funny how that kicked in right after the crackdown began...

comment #18

mitch says ...

Murdocdy: I wasn't referring to anyone in particular about the blind Mac love, as evidenced by the fact that the comment was within a bulleted reference assigned to no one person. I've seen both good (most software) and bad (Autocad, and some other more obscure hardware locked software) with Windows running on a Mac: depends on what you're doing and the related software/hardware requirements, which is why I gave the pointer to www.macwindows.com. I would have no problem at all aligning myself to a greater extent with Mac OS X if Apple offered just the OS. I just don't appreciate having to buy Apple's branded hardware just to run their Tiger. C'mon, Apple: open it up already! Yet, it's their company, their choice, so more power to 'em.

Boot Camp is cool, but is absolutely not novel, save for the drivers option which is only feasible because Macs are a *mostly* closed system. An example of previous Boot Camp like products is Acronis' Boot Manager (around for many years), OSL Boot Manager, and others easily findable via google.

Yeah, Windows 95, 98 and Millennium sucked. Bad. Didn't run them on my personal computers. Just at work. Told management I was walking unless I was allowed to switch. Moved to NT 3.51, then 2000, and 2003, which ran well, better and better yet. I use a combo of 2003 and XP now, and have really not had much in the way of problems for quite some time. The updates are an irritant, but I don't mind them.

As for Vista on a Mac, I can't say from personal experience how well it will work. It may work perfectly well. I only stated that I wouldn't assume that it will run Vista very well our of the gate. Nothing more is implied.

Christian: Bill's got game, money wise, but his deposition was, shall I write, unconvincing.