comment #1

mitch says ...

europeans enjoy pretty good government supported health care? From where did you glean this information and to which countries do you specifically refer?

most americans are sick from their diet and lack of exercise. our health care system is geared towards treating the symptom, not the cause. wanna get mad over health care costs? then look towards the legal system. wanna make the health care system better? then support your doctor's right to say your fat without him/her feeling that they may be sued for insensitivity. support diet reform. support exercise reform in the schools (need more more more). and for god's sake support medical malpractice reform.

when you're done with all that support, see your physician about the headaches you're experiencing. "doc, seriously, I can handle it. is it a tumor?" "yeah, sorry kid. tough luck that."

comment #2

christian says ...

and here's mitch to defend childen dying from abcess tooth infections in america -- where it happens, not in europe, where people can get some basic coverage.

so all you need to do is eat right and fight against medical malpractice and we'll all live to be a 100!

go visit walter reed now and continue your lectures on honor.

comment #3

Noah says ...

The truth of the matter is that we live in a capitalist nation and most people who are working are able to get a modicum of health care. If you ever been to a hospital in Europe or Canada, you will see why universal health care is not the way to go. It's a good way to make sure that you will never see the best doctor, even if you can afford it. My friend's sister got her leg amputated in a car accident in Paris and it turned out the leg could have been saved if it weren't for their "wonderful" universal health care system and their "excellent" doctors. Good doctors want to make money, just like a good lawyer or a good writer. We live in a country where how good you are at something often reflects how much you get paid (outside of the movie industry at least).

comment #4

LYTrules says ...

Of course Europeans will be interested. They like everything Michael Moore does, and they love anything that makes the U.S. look foolish.

Besides, Moore has a good sense of how to make a topic entertaining and watchable, even if it sounds dry on paper. I've never known anyone to have a neutral response to any of his documentaries. People may nitpick them, hate them, love them...I've never heard someone go "Mehh, it's nothing special."

comment #5

christian says ...

well that hopefully makes the millions of uninsured dying or suffering americans feel better.

btw, i love these bill o'reilly "hey pal, socialized medicine in europe is run by incompetents!"

i was in holland last year and my american friend almost broke his foot. he walked into a hospital at midnight, they fixed him up and sent him out much better for wear within an hour.

comment #6

Stephe96 says ...

Funny how a good socialist liberal like Roger Ebert didn't didn't immediately fly off to Havana for some "quality" health care treatment, huh?

comment #7

christian says ...

oh, and for free.

comment #8

joncro says ...

Here in the UK we do 'enjoy' pretty good govt. supported healthcare. Is it perfect? Of course not.

To compare - when I lived in Philadelphia for a year we bought insurance, and the service was the same as the NHS. Exactly the same. No better, no worse. The difference was the eye-popping cost which more than wiped out any difference between taxes in the US and in the UK.

And if 'most people who are working are able to get a modicum of health care' is good enough for the richest country in history, then I am sorry for you.

comment #9

Hopscotch says ...

Walk into a hospital ANYWHERE other than the US and the first question they ask you is: what's wrong?

In the US: Who's your insurance carrier?

There's a lot of money in people getting sick, that's not exactly news. Frankly I think more should be put into prevention, i.e. not letting kids drink Coke as much as water, than we do now.

comment #10

Josh Massey says ...

Christian: It ain't free if somebody is paying for it. Ignorance is bliss, huh?

"well that hopefully makes the millions of uninsured dying or suffering americans feel better."

Give me a break. Out of those supposed "millions of uninsured dying or suffering" (bullshit stats, by the way), how many of those people can afford health insurance but are too lazy, ignorant or cheap to get it themselves? Why should it be the taxpayers' job to pay for somebody else's health care? I understand there are some out there incapable of paying and/or getting it themselves, and we should take care of them - but the number is small.

Here's a hint: If you can afford a cell phone, a car and a television, you can afford health insurance.

comment #11

OddDuck says ...

There's another good reason to have some sort of universal healthcare that isn't talked about enough -- to help american business. American companies are at a comparative disadvantage to their European counterparts because we are saddled with the healthcare costs.

And as it is now, unless you work for a large and/or incredibly generous employer, health insurance is VERY VERY EXPENSIVE for the average consumer. So it's not just a matter of people being too lazy to get it. It's quite possible for a person to be able to afford a car and a cell phone (which, depending on their work situation, might be CRUCIAL to their income) and still not be able to afford insurance. Freelancers, anyone?

Of course I don't think it should be free. All taxpayers should be required to have it, and to pay for it. But by making it universal we could dramatically enlargen the risk pool and lower costs for everyone.

comment #12

jeffmcm says ...

I work for a living and a 'modicum' is exactly how much insurance I can afford.

Josh Massey, sounds like you are in favor of eliminating tax cuts (if you can afford a cell phone , a car, and a television...)

comment #13

christian says ...

"If you can afford a cell phone, a car and a television, you can afford health insurance."

and if you can't, too bad. die.

i love our christian nation.

comment #14

D.Z. says ...

Noah: "My friend's sister got her leg amputated in a car accident in Paris and it turned out the leg could have been saved if it weren't for their "wonderful" universal health care system and their "excellent" doctors."

Sorry about her leg, but if she were treated in the United States, she'd probably be still paying for her insurance, because her HMO decided to cancel funding the procedure.

"Good doctors want to make money, just like a good lawyer or a good writer."

Um, no. If you're in it for the money, you're corrupting the Hippocratic Oath. But the fact that they need to make that kind of money, because education isn't free in this country, and they'll be in debt for at least a decade, is part of why we're last in education.

"We live in a country where how good you are at something often reflects how much you get paid"

Yeah, Mike Brown did a hecukva job. And Cheney deserves kick-backs from Halliburton, because his occupation of Iraq went so smoothly.

Josh: "It ain't free if somebody is paying for it."

As OddDuck noted, our businesses are paying for it, because they're overwhelmed by costs from greedy insurance copies, and are unable to effectively compete, compared to their international counterparts.

"Out of those supposed "millions of uninsured dying or suffering" (bullshit stats, by the way)"

Yeah, and the Holocaust wasn't real, either, right?

"how many of those people can afford health insurance but are too lazy, ignorant or cheap to get it themselves?"

I like how Republiscum like to use those euphemisms for working-class minorities, so they can pretend they're not being racist. The problem is affordable health insurance is an oxymoron. In fact, there are a lot of people who have to choose between coverage and feeding their families, because their income isn't worth as much as it was thirty years ago.

"If you can afford a cell phone, a car and a television, you can afford health insurance."

The businesses for the companies you describe usually provide you with the service you pay for, which isn't the case with insurance companies.

comment #15

jeffmcm says ...

What a total flood of smugness and negativity.

comment #16

EDouglas says ...

"What a total flood of smugness and negativity."

Welcome to the internet.

comment #17

DavidF says ...

Lordy. Everything's gotta be political here so, fine, I'll chip in my two cents.

The USA is one the very few western countries with no socialized medicine. I forget who it was (Ghandi?) who said that the success of a society can be measured by how it treats its most vulnerable citizens. By this standard the USA's system is a joke.
It is about making money for a group of professionals by treating sick people; not the other way around.

For all the flaws of socialized medicine the key thing is that even poor people can get treated for ANYTHING for free. You need an MRI? Free. Need a leg amputated? Free? Need palliative care, chemotherapy, a tetanus shot? Free, free, free. (ie payed for in your taxes, obviously.)

For some big things yeah, you won't have the "immediate" access you might in the USA but the good news for rich people is that they can always buy their way to the front of the line, whether it's for Bon Jovi tickets or a heart transplant.

In a rampant capitalist country like the USA it might be hard to imagine that doctors have a goal other than money. I live in Canada and they are well-paid by any standard but any one of them could move to the USA and make more if that was their goal. For some doctors - for a lot of doctors - it is not.

As for me, I have had to make far more use of the health system than I would like and is encouraging to know that prolonged hospital stays, MRI scans and special genetic tests require no more from me than producing an ID card. In the USA, even with insurance, I'd be paying through the nose.

Anyone could rant on and on so I won't anymore except to say I watched WHY WE FIGHT last night and while I found some of it polemical it's utterly fascinating to consider what could be built, what can be done by, say, buying a dozen fewer B-2 bombers. The reality is that the USA has the money to ensure that no one suffers needlessly but chooses to spend it elsewhere and that's the real crime.

Justifying that by slamming Sweden and Canada and talking about some indidvidual horror story you heard is a total Straw Man arugment.

comment #18

Dublin101 says ...

Man there seems to be a lot of Bill O'Reilly types posting here. Isn't there an annoying Republican movie site for these guys?

Anyway I'm not taking a dig at Jeff but not all European countries have decent public healthcare. Here in Ireland, whinging about our public hospitals is one our main public pastimes and it’s a big election issue. And those who can afford it are buying private insurance. So public healthcare is an issue outside of the US which should give this film a shot at an international audience.

comment #19

Stephe96 says ...

I can't wait for totally free health care. I'll have a standing 5-hour appointment every week for a full battery of every diagnostic medical test you can imagine. Right now that kind of professional medical attention would cost me about $250,000, so this totally free health care will really work out with my budget.

Meanwhile, I actually have to take personal responsibilty and keep myself healthy. That kind of thing is for total losers!

comment #20

jeffmcm says ...

That's a stupid comment.

comment #21

DavidF says ...

I'll ditto jeffmcm.
It's sad what people have to say to back up their arguments.

Stephe96 fails to get that there are two interrrelated but separate problems:
1) You live in a country with an obesity epidemic where there are invididuals doing harm to themselves. People also smoke and do all sorts of things they shouldn't. It's not like the American government is working to hard to fight any of those "symptoms."
Why should they? HMOs make money, McDonald's makes money, RJ Reynolds makes money.

2) This may shock someone like Stephe96 who takes "personal responsiblity" but sometimes people who do none of the above get sick. Very sick. Terminally sick. Sometimes their kids get sick.

Even writing this much to dignifiy his stupid comment is too much. Karma's a bitch so he should hope he never has to meet her.

comment #22

Josh Massey says ...

I said, "how many of those people can afford health insurance but are too lazy, ignorant or cheap to get it themselves?"

And you automatically took those words ("lazy," "ignorant" and "cheap") to mean minorities. Who's the racist again, DZ? Personally, I loathe lazy, ignorant and cheap people of all colors and genders.

comment #23

Josh Massey says ...

"Isn't there an annoying Republican movie site for these guys?"

Isn't there a socialist country you can move to if that's what you prefer?

comment #24

jeffmcm says ...

Ibid.

comment #25

Stephe96 says ...

You live in a country with an obesity epidemic where there are invididuals doing harm to themselves. People also smoke and do all sorts of things they shouldn't. It's not like the American government is working to hard to fight any of those "symptoms."

*******************************************

Huh? I believe that's called 'freedom.' Or do you think the government should regulate all aspects of our lives? Ban cigarettes and fast food, if that's what you want. Ban the automobile while you're at it...

comment #26

OddDuck says ...

Josh Massey - you don't win points by responding to DZ's idiotic ramblings instead of the valid posts presented by those engaging in fair and honest argument. I don't think you're racist, but do take issue with your suggestion laziness is a main reason many don't have insurance. In fact, several have responded to your post on that, and you pick D.Z. to respond to? That is telling.

comment #27

Rich S. says ...

Leaving aside the political argument for a moment, I wonder what critical piece of information Moore will leave out of this film to make his point, such as the fact that he actually did get an interview with Roger Smith, thus invalidating the whole premise of Roger & Me.

comment #28

SaveFarris says ...

What a coincidence! I just watched the "Why We Fight" episode of BAND OF BROTHERS the other night.

God Bless those B-2s and the airmen who fly them.

Good idea, DavidF. HMOs, McDonalds, & RJ Reynolds make too much money while making us sicker ... deliberatly, I imagine. Let's just shut the whole lot of them down for the sake of the country. It's the American Way!!!

comment #29

jeffmcm says ...

Ibid.

comment #30

jeffmcm says ...

I don't think anyone is saying that universal health care is a panacea, but merely that it's a better idea than what we have now; and all this discussion about cigarette companies and fast food is largely irrelevant. People should live healthier lives and our current culture encourages consumption and our health care system is set up to react to illness, not prevent it.

Discuss that (or change the subject to something simplistic and emptily rhetorical).

comment #31

Stephe96 says ...

And what about free auto insurance while we're at it? We all need to drive to get to work. What's so special about health insurance that it should be totally free?

comment #32

jeffmcm says ...

Re: Michael Moore's alleged interview with Roger Smith, there doesn't seem to be any proof of that (and Moore would have almost certainly used footage of it if he had it as with his interview with Charlton Heston in Bowling for Columbine - if they don't provide any useful soundbites, grandstand!)

comment #33

DavidF says ...

I didn't suggest banning anything though it doesn't surprise me that some people (SaveFarris, Stephe96) would make that arugment for me.

I said it's a PROBLEM. If you don't think having the fattest country on the planet (compounded by having one of the weakest health care systems) is a negative, then, by all means, celebrate your god-given American birtright! No skin off my back.

And please, tell me more about this "freedom" thing! We have none of whatsoever way over here in Toronto!!

What I said was that you have problems that are being exacerbated and that your health care system is ill-equipped to handle them. I don't think people should smoke but I don't bitch about having to pay my taxes to take care of them when they get lung cancer. It's part of being a human being.

As for Josh,
DZ is right (and I hope I never have to say that again) in that the people who don't have health care in the USA (lazy, ignorant, cheap and otherwise) tend to be disproportionately from minority groups. I would think that's obvious.

Josh says it's "bullshit stats" to say that there are millions of Americans without health care.

The American government counted 47 Americans without healthcare in 2005. The number of employed Americans without insurance is going up...these are all objective facts. Nonetheless, I'm betting Josh can tell us (with great precision, I'm thinking) how to divide up those 47 million into "lazy," "greedy" "ignorant" "all of the above" and the dozen or so who are "just plain unlucky."

p.s. Moore can be nutty but I'm curious to see his movie.

comment #34

christian says ...

"Meanwhile, I actually have to take personal responsibilty and keep myself healthy."

just don't work in a mine or factory or in an industrial plant run and owned by corporations who get the most socialistic subsidies possible.

and please DO NOT join the military because you can see the kind of health care our veterans received at walter reed.

otherwise you'll be peachy and live to be 100!

comment #35

Noah says ...

Look I'm a democrat, but I don't believe in universal health care. It might have to do with the fact that I'm a type-1 diabetic and in Europe I would have to make due with the bare minimum in terms of insulin, testing strips, lancets, syringes, etc. I like to stay in good control of my diabetes and to do that requires extra supplies and my health care provider here in the states allows me to do that.

comment #36

Stephe96 says ...

Leaving aside the political argument for a moment, I wonder what critical piece of information Moore will leave out of this film to make his point, such as the fact that he actually did get an interview with Roger Smith, thus invalidating the whole premise of Roger & Me.
**********************************************

Great point. And what about that scene in 'Bowling for Columbine' where Moore is standing before a B-2 bomber in a museum? We hear him reading the plaque about how many Viet Nam villagers the plane had killed during the war. Just one problem: the plaque said nothing of the sort. Moore actually had to re-edit the home video release after people pointed this out.

Think about that. The man had a camera in the museum. A genuine documentarian would've simply pointed the camera at the plaque and let his audience read it for themselves. Not Moore. He'd rather make stuff up when the facts get in the way of his propoganda.

Hollywood gives this guy Oscars. Amazing.

comment #37

DavidF says ...

Stephe96 made me laugh:
"And what about free auto insurance while we're at it? We all need to drive to get to work. What's so special about health insurance that it should be totally free?"

Man, that must be news to the tens of millions of people who take public transit. Even cabs. Gee, and what about the people who can't afford $20,000 for a car? Do such people exist?

I guess where Stephe96 lives everyone wakes up, climbs out of their ivory tower, piles into their Hummers and Cayennes and drive (no traffic jams, of course!) to their great jobs.

Implying there is no difference a car getting smashed up and a person getting cancer is suggests a level of intelligence not up for the rigors of a politcially-skewed movie dicussion board.

comment #38

Stephe96 says ...

But why should I have to PAY for auto insurance? And what about food? I'll starve to death if I don't eat. That'll kill me a hell of a lot faster than cancer will! I'd like the government to feed me for free for the rest of my life. And it can be fatty food, too, as long as my health care is on the house! Hell, the feds should throw in a free lifetime health-club membership while they're at it.

comment #39

OddDuck says ...

I don't think it should be free. People should be required to enroll and pay premiums. Of course there would be exceptions at the margins, either through exemptions or credits or whatever, but if we make it mandatory for the majority of the population, we can get a large enough risk pool that will result in lower cost for all.

And right now those with insurance, whether they know it or not, ARE paying for health care for poor people. Everytime a poor uninsured person with, say, diabetes, has a medical emergency and shows up at the emergency room, it's those with insurance that end up paying for most of that. And more often than not, that costly emergency room visit probably could have been avoided with much cheaper preventative care.

So there's this obvious notion that preventative care will save you money in the long run, right? The problem is the insurance companies don't care, because the insurance company that invests in the preventative care cannot reliably predict that they'll be the ones to benefit from it. So they ignore it. Universal health care will go a long ways towards solving that problem.

comment #40

DavidF says ...

It's your right to take everything to the logical extreme if you like. If you think that people who want free health care must also support Stalin, so be it.

The simple answer to your questions is that there are some things the government does better or at least needs to intervene with. I'm not going to go down a long list of what could/should be privatized etc. You seem to think that it's either extreme socialism or happy American free market capitalism (ha!) but the reality is that most "civilized" countries have had little trouble finding a happy medium.

That's why we foreigners have health care and laws regulating pollutants, food production and a zillion other things AND we still get to watch The Simpsons and 24 and live in some version of "freedom" (lacking though it may be compared to the utopia of America).

comment #41

Stephe96 says ...

Man, that must be news to the tens of millions of people who take public transit. Even cabs.
*******************************************

Thanks for reminding me. All public transportation and taxis should be free.

comment #42

DavidF says ...

OddDuck's last paragraph is a good reiteration of what I was saying earlier. The point isn't that fast food should be banned but that the whole system is geared to not giving a shit so long as money is being made. Down the line that screws things up for everyone. When you have no preventative care AND a system with no real safety net you are asking for trouble.

And "Free" health care isn't FREE. It's paid for in your taxes - those are the premiums. A perfectly healthy person pays the same amount as someone who is in and out of hospitals (relative to their incomes etc.) That might seem "unfair" to some, but that's what "universal health care" means.

I'm sorry I waded in but it's too late now. There are some real nuts (and some good people) out there.

comment #43

OddDuck says ...

Seems to me that Stephe96 ain't interested in an honest argument.

comment #44

Stephe96 says ...

Seems to me that Stephe96 ain't interested in an honest argument.

Sure I am. I just happen to think that socialized medical care in the US would be a huge mistake. I understand that people get sick and that health care costs can be outrageous. But I don't think making it "free" is the way to fix the problem. I approach it from the angle of frivolous lawsuits, and the insane insurance premiums we all wind up paying as a result. Limit what the ambulance chasers can make off the medical community and suddenly health care would become a LOT more affordable for people. We also have to do something about illegal immigration. Go hang around in an emergency room for awhile and see what's going on. Illegals cut their finger and they simply go to the emergency rooms. They go to the front of the line and they aren't charged a penny. Guess who is paying for all that through insurance premiums? Got a mirror handy? That's how I'd approach the problem.

comment #45

christian says ...

does it really bother your soul to know that a tiny amount of your taxes is going to keep children in good health -- those same childen who will grow up and contribute to society?

do you mind paying taxes for bunker buster bombs?

or nuclear fusion research?

or subsidies to off-shore corporations?

or how about bailing out neil bush and his savings and loan fraud?

this is what's wrong with america -- this infantile am talk radio notion that "i've got
mine jack so fuck y'all"...

comment #46

OddDuck says ...

Stephe96, no offense, but those sound like talking points that someone memorized and uttered on Hannity and Colmes, and which you are now parroting here. The whole frivolous lawsuits talking point is largely a myth, and as far as illegal immigrants clogging up the ER, let me ask you, are you hanging out at the ER everyday to witness this? Maybe you work at a hospital, in which case your observation is still anecdotal, but it really seems to me that you're looking for reasons to support your argument, rather than forming an argument based on reason.

comment #47

Stephe96 says ...

You're still upset over Neil Bush and the savings and loan scandal?

Wow.

comment #48

Stephe96 says ...

I know someone who employs illegals. I've heard the horror stories. And of course my observations are anecdotal. But I totally disagree that the 'frivolous lawsuits' issue is a 'myth.'

CHRISTIAN,

How 'bout if I just send all my medical bills to Michael Moore? He's got more than enough money to go around.

comment #49

nemo says ...

"Here's a hint: If you can afford a cell phone, a car and a television, you can afford health insurance."

That's true if you're 25 or 30 and single. Not so true if you're 55 or 60. A married couple, no dependents, no pre-existing conditions, with a high deductible, will pay about $9,000 to $10,000 a year for health insurance if they have to buy directly, instead of through an employer. That's about $800 to $900 a month.

If one of those partners has a pre-existing condition such as cancer, even if it has been treated successfully and is in remission, then a couple in their late 50s, even with a high deductible, will pay $18,000 to $24,000 a year in health insurance premiums. That's $1,500 to $2,000 a month. My mortgage doesn't cost that much.

You can get a cell phone plan for $30 a month. You can buy a color TV for a flat $300. You can borrow to buy a new car for as little as $250 to $300 a month.

If you're single, 30, with no health problems, then yes, you can get health insurance for as little as $300 a month, like buying an inexpensive new car. But just add 25 or 30 years, some health problems (and only a fool believes they are all self-inflicted), and maybe some dependents, and you're looking at monthly payments the size of a mortgage.

I've looked into it since I've given some thought to going semi-retired sometime around age 60, about 6 years from now. But the idea of giving up my employer's health insurance gives me pause, even though I could afford it. Anybody who thinks health insurance in the US is easy to afford on your own is young, healthy, and ignorant.

UHC won't do away with private health insurance. When you reach 65, Medicare doesn't remove the need for your own health insurance. It just makes it a lot more affordable. And if at 65 you can't afford additional health insurance, then at least Medicare provides something.

comment #50

christian says ...

"You're still upset over Neil Bush and the savings and loan scandal?

Wow."

how typical that a president's family member who uses the "free" market to rip off thousands of people, costing the country BILLIONS of dollars that YOU had to pay should have a shelf life of outrage, but when it comes to giving a child a free checkup, here comes THE FREE MARKET DEFENDER...

wow indeed.

comment #51

NYCBusybody says ...

Oh, you kids and your politics. Doesn't anyone talk about MOVIES around here?

comment #52

Josh Massey says ...

"DZ is right (and I hope I never have to say that again) in that the people who don't have health care in the USA (lazy, ignorant, cheap and otherwise) tend to be disproportionately from minority groups. I would think that's obvious."

Have you ever been outside of a big city? The vast majority of this country's lazy, ignorant and cheap people are lily white.

"Josh says it's 'bullshit stats' to say that there are millions of Americans without health care."

Ugh, why try to make a point when nobody reads what you actually write? I said it's bullshit that there are millions of uninsured "dying and suffering" people.

comment #53

Josh Massey says ...

Oh, and Spider-Man 3 really did blow. I don't mind if Wells goes on for another month about it.

comment #54

Rich S. says ...

Don't worry, he will.

comment #55

Craig Kennedy says ...

"Spider-Man 3 really did blow" is probably the only statement in this whole thread few will argue with. I'm not sure I want to hear Jeff going on about it, but in the spirit of cooperation I'll let that slide.

comment #56

Stephe96 says ...

I didn't need to see 'Spiderman 3' to know that it would suck. All I had to do was watch the trailer.

comment #57

joncro says ...

Let's just clarify - when we say 'free health care' we mean 'free at the point of delivery'. That means we don't get a bill when we see a doctor. We pay for it in taxes. Much MUCH cheaper that way.

Question - 'Why should I pay for other people's insurance?'

Answer - 'Because they are paying for yours too.'

comment #58

le corbeau says ...

I feel ten years younger for having missed this whole clusterfark.

comment #59

D.Z. says ...

Dublin: "Here in Ireland, whinging about our public hospitals is one our main public pastimes and it’s a big election issue. And those who can afford it are buying private insurance."

Maybe if you assholes didn't blow up buildings and buses over there, they'd have more money to take care of everyone else.

Stephe: "Ban the automobile while you're at it..."

I'm for banning SUVS myself...

"And what about free auto insurance while we're at it? We all need to drive to get to work. What's so special about health insurance that it should be totally free?"

People don't need cars; they're just stuck with them as a result of poor planning. In fact, in L.A., they're a burden instead of a convenience. We really need to improve public transportation in general, because the car and oil companies are contributing to the ozone hole.

"Not Moore. He'd rather make stuff up when the facts get in the way of his propoganda."

At least he didn't kill 500,000 Iraqis and 3,700 troops with his words.

"But why should I have to PAY for auto insurance?"

So you don't clog up the court system with the frivolous lawsuits you so hate?

"I approach it from the angle of frivolous lawsuits, and the insane insurance premiums we all wind up paying as a result."

Most "frivolous" lawsuits are thrown out of court and hardly add to the price-jacking going on by insurance companies.

"Limit what the ambulance chasers can make off the medical community and suddenly health care would become a LOT more affordable for people."

So lawyers shouldn't be compensated for defending people from doctors who mis-diagnose or even deform patients?

"We also have to do something about illegal immigration"

Getting rid of sweatshops and tariffs, and supporting real free trade-instead of subsidizing our farmers-might help.

"You're still upset over Neil Bush and the savings and loan scandal?"

Why shouldn't we be upset? His legacy lives on with his asshole brothers.

Noah: "Look I'm a democrat, but I don't believe in universal health care."

Then you're not really a democrat.

"It might have to do with the fact that I'm a type-1 diabetic and in Europe I would have to make due with the bare minimum in terms of insulin, testing strips, lancets, syringes, etc. I like to stay in good control of my diabetes and to do that requires extra supplies and my health care provider here in the states allows me to do that."

Yeah, but if you lived in New Orleans or Kansas, you wouldn't have access to those supplies, anyway. What if a similar situation like a flood or tornado happens to you? Then what? Grab a gun and go looting?

Josh: "Have you ever been outside of a big city? The vast majority of this country's lazy, ignorant and cheap people are lily white."

Maybe that's the case in places where skinheads like to hang out, but racial demographics are completely changing, especially in rural areas where it's cheaper for minorities to find work.

comment #60

jeffmcm says ...

NOTHING that you have to say is in any way contributing to making the world a better place, DZ.

comment #61

Noah says ...

DZ, I am a democrat. Just because I don't believe in universal health care doesn't automatically make me a republican. This is what is called "liberal elitism" and apparently I'm not liberal enough for you, but that's fine.

And a flood, tornado or other natural disaster can happen anywhere in the world, what's your point? I live in New York City and I get the best care that I can for my illness and I don't want to have to give that up. I am all for everybody who works in this country to get all their healthcare needs met, but I'm not for having everyone pay the same and get the same. I have a serious condition and I shouldn't be punished into getting less supplies than I require and therefore having my organs damaged because I'm not able to keep good control because of the restrictions on my supplies that universal health care would necessitate.

comment #62

D.Z. says ...

Noah: 'DZ, I am a democrat. Just because I don't believe in universal health care doesn't automatically make me a republican. This is what is called "liberal elitism"'

No, it's called not being a sell-out.

"And a flood, tornado or other natural disaster can happen anywhere in the world, what's your point?"

You saw what happened when New Orleans was run under a free market system of health care during Katrina. 'Nuff said.

"I live in New York City and I get the best care that I can for my illness and I don't want to have to give that up."

That's great for you, but what about the people contiminated from the radiation from Ground Zero?

comment #63

Noah says ...

Okay, nevermind. I thought I could have an intelligent discussion with you, but you're insane. Not one of your points make sense. I am a democrat, so don't tell me what I am. Health care had absolutely nothing to do with a hurricane hitting New Orleans. Radiation from Ground Zero? Who are you? Charlie Sheen?

comment #64

jeffmcm says ...

You are correct. DZ destroys every conversation he enters into with his furious masturbation.

comment #65

D.Z. says ...

Noah: "I am a democrat, so don't tell me what I am."

A lot of people voted for Kerry, but still drive SUVs. That doesn't make them Democrats.

"Health care had absolutely nothing to do with a hurricane hitting New Orleans."

The lack of organization and planning led to even the most basic supplies you're whining about being off-limits. People who had even more fragile medical ailments than you were left to fend for themselves. If the government kept track of its gauze as much as it does its bombs, you wouldn't have to worry about shortages. You only think you're safe, because no terrorist or environmental attack has affected your neighborhood, but when it does, don't be surprised if you have to pay $10,000 for some black market insulin. At least if it was free, they'd have it in stock, but they can't even protect your ass from the flu.

"Radiation from Ground Zero? Who are you? Charlie Sheen?"

From http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/24/nyregion/24air.html?ex=1178856000&en=3737a26628aa574d&ei=5070

Health experts, environmental advocates and politicians called on the federal Environmental Protection Agency yesterday to address contamination and medical problems in Brooklyn and other areas outside Lower Manhattan resulting from the Sept. 11 attack.

Representative Edolphus Towns, Democrat of Brooklyn, presided over a Congressional hearing Monday at Brooklyn Borough Hall.

Speaking at a Congressional hearing held in Brooklyn Borough Hall, they said that with the recent focus on the deaths and illnesses of people who worked at the World Trade Center disaster site, effects on those farther from ground zero were being overlooked.

Several experts presented evidence that they had gathered in recent years of increased asthma rates and widespread home contamination in Brooklyn, and urged more research to at least determine the extent of the problems.

Representative Jerrold L. Nadler, a Democrat whose district includes parts of Brooklyn and Manhattan, said that having already misled ground zero workers that the air they breathed was safe, the E.P.A. was now engaged in a “second cover-up.”

“This,” Mr. Nadler said, “is that the people in Manhattan, Brooklyn, Jersey City and Queens are still being poisoned daily.”

comment #66

jeffmcm says ...

Thank you for proving my point.

comment #67

Noah says ...

So DZ, a Democrat must believe in universal health care? I believe in welfare, I believe in a woman's right to choose, I'm all for taxing the wealthiest percent of people, so how am I not a Democrat?

And you said it yourself, there was enough planning for a category 4 or 5 hurricane hitting New Orleans. This is the fault of FEMA for not being more prepared and it has nothing to do with health care. If there were universal health care, it still wouldn't have gotten to the victims of Katrina. There is an abundance of insulin in supply, it just couldn't get to the people there. And by the way, asshole, I live in New York City and I breathed in the air that day on 9/11, so don't tell me that I never lived through a terrorist attack in my neighborhood. Have you?

And the EPA told us the air was fine, then it wasns't fine. But, guess what? I'm not gonna fucking move. Well, I'm being poisoned daily too then. Surprisingly, my health (other than my diabetes) has been fine. And by the way, the air being bad has absolutely nothing to do with "radiation" as you called it. God, I don't want to get sucked into this idiotic discussion with you, but I'm hoping you will just admit that you are arguing for the sake of arguing and don't know what you're talking about.

comment #68

Noah says ...

By the way, thankfully I have enough insulin and other supplies in stock (thanks to the benefits of privatized health care and my insurance) that I don't have to worry about running out of supplies in case of one of those attacks.

comment #69

D.Z. says ...

Noah: "So DZ, a Democrat must believe in universal health care? I believe in welfare, I believe in a woman's right to choose, I'm all for taxing the wealthiest percent of people, so how am I not a Democrat?"

You're not a Democrat, because your argument against universal health care contradicts your other values.

"This is the fault of FEMA for not being more prepared and it has nothing to do with health care."

Um, actually, it is related, because millions of Americans are experiencing similar situations like what happened in New Orleans all the time.

"There is an abundance of insulin in supply, it just couldn't get to the people there."

If it couldn't get to the people there, that means it wasn't available where it counted.

"And by the way, asshole, I live in New York City and I breathed in the air that day on 9/11, so don't tell me that I never lived through a terrorist attack in my neighborhood. Have you?"

I lived through the L.A. riots and have to deal with smog and wildfire smoke on a daily basis.

"And by the way, the air being bad has absolutely nothing to do with "radiation" as you called it."

Yeah, all those toxic substances from the burnt metal fucking up your oxygen are just coincidence.

comment #70

le corbeau says ...

"Um, actually, it is related, because millions of Americans are experiencing similar situations like what happened in New Orleans all the time."

Yeah, just look at the 10,000 dead in Kansas!

comment #71

Noah says ...

Ugh, I give up. You actually equated smog with 9/11. You're not a Democrat, either my friend. You're a fucking nutjob.

comment #72

D.Z. says ...

Mgmax: "Yeah, just look at the 10,000 dead in Kansas!"

At the rate Bush is responding, it should only be a month from now.

comment #73

D.Z. says ...

Noah: "You actually equated smog with 9/11."

Bad planning which leads to people getting sick from chemicals is a form of terrorism. Look at Chernobyl as proof.

comment #74

christian says ...

"This is the fault of FEMA for not being more prepared and it has nothing to do with health care."

it's also the fault of the army corps of engineers who never adequately protected the levees after years of neglect:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003034071_katrina02.html

NEW ORLEANS — The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers took responsibility Thursday for the flooding of New Orleans by Hurricane Katrina and said the levees failed because they were built in a disjointed fashion using outdated data.

"This is the first time that the corps has had to stand up and say, 'We've had a catastrophic failure,' " Lt. Gen. Carl Strock, the corps chief, said as the agency issued a 6,000-page-plus report Thursday, Day 1 of the new hurricane season."

that's american health care writ large.

comment #75

Noah says ...

Jeff McM, please tell me you're still reading this so I know that somebody is laughing along with me.

comment #76

Noah says ...

Yes, Christian, you bring up an excellent point. Meteorologists have talked for years about how if a category 4 or 5 hurricane hit New Orleans, that city would be devastated and yet they didn't do enough to reenforce the levees. I'm assuming your closing sentence was facetious.

comment #77

jeffmcm says ...

Yeah, I just got back.
DZ is totally insane. For one thing, I don't know why he could consider himself a Democrat since he apparently agree with most Democrats on a substantial number of issues. He belongs in the Green party or some other fringe group, instead of apparently demanding that half+ of all self-described Dems get out of his party because they aren't ideologically pure enough. He clearly has no desire to win elections and I have no idea what policies or politicians he's _for_, if any, but we all know what he's against.

Clearly he's a guilty white over-educated liberal college kid somewhere between 16 and 24 with his heart in the right place but a very confused perspective on life.

comment #78

jeffmcm says ...

'disagrees' in the third line above.

comment #79

OddDuck says ...

I always figured DZ as 26, living in his mom's basement with crummy furniture but a really nice TV he bought with savings from his part time job at comp usa.

comment #80

christian says ...

based on this thread, i'd say michael moore has a hit doc...

comment #81

Rich S. says ...

What I want to know is, if the government was such a catastrophic failure with Katrina (and I won't argue it wasn't), why would we want them running our healthcare system?

comment #82

Stephe96 says ...

Rich S,

You've hit the nail on the head. But you have to understand, it wasn't "the government" that was a failure with Katrina...it was the Republican in the White House. It was all Bush's fault.

comment #83

jeffmcm says ...

Stephe96, your intended irony has come around 360 degrees and become simple truth again.

comment #84

le corbeau says ...

Um, D.Z., really, if there's one thing I can promise you as the survivor of many tornado warnings growing up in Kansas, it's that 12 dead will be surprising if it eventually climbs to 15, let alone 10,000.

And to both D.Z. and Jeffmcm, as you blame a century of poor planning and management in New Orleans solely on Bush, try to guess which party held the governorship in Louisiana for 117 of the last 130 years.

comment #85

Stephe96 says ...

Jeff,

Well, sure, as long as you ignore the fact that Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin were both Democrats.

Imagine if prior to the hurricane Bush said he didn't think Blanco and Nagin were competent, and decided to declare martial law and take over the entire situation? Christ, you libs would've been screaming bloody murder...

comment #86

Nate West says ...

//Stephen96: And what about food? I'll starve to death if I don't eat. That'll kill me a hell of a lot faster than cancer will! I'd like the government to feed me for free for the rest of my life.//

You're right, of course. The weak and poor SHOULD starve. How dare they consider otherwise?

comment #87

D.Z. says ...

jeff: "He clearly has no desire to win elections"

Wait, didn't Bill promise universal health care, if he were elected?

Rich: "What I want to know is, if the government was such a catastrophic failure with Katrina (and I won't argue it wasn't), why would we want them running our healthcare system?"

Well the problem is the people who handled Katrina were for less government.

Mgmax: "Um, D.Z., really, if there's one thing I can promise you as the survivor of many tornado warnings growing up in Kansas, it's that 12 dead will be surprising if it eventually climbs to 15, let alone 10,000."

Yeah, well global warming's upping the chances of that many deaths across the country. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070510/ap_on_re_us/nature_s_fury

"And to both D.Z. and Jeffmcm, as you blame a century of poor planning and management in New Orleans solely on Bush, try to guess which party held the governorship in Louisiana for 117 of the last 130 years."

They've been asking money for over 20 years, and in 12 of those years, the people in charge at the top were Republiscum.

comment #88

cobhome says ...

Give me a break. Out of those supposed "millions of uninsured dying or suffering" (bullshit stats, by the way), how many of those people can afford health insurance but are too lazy, ignorant or cheap to get it themselves? Why should it be the taxpayers' job to pay for somebody else's health care?

Jeez - young woman - divorced single parent - has a second job doing for my aged mom - this young woman did all the right things - went to school to get a legal assistants associate degree - works for an attorney - makes 10$ an hr - pays ( this is NJ - a ghetto apt costs 800$ a month) 1,000 a month for rent - has a child - with two jobs can't afford the 300$ a month co pay on the health insurance offered at her job -

the only people who think americas's health care system is just fine - are those middle/upper class professionals who get a decent wage and have benefits - for the rest of america - health is something they can't afford -

the us has the most expensive least effective health care system of any western nation - fact - it is an embarassment - and since the taxpayer is already paying for a lousy system - why not pay for something that works?

comment #89

jeffmcm says ...

DZ - a dissection of his last post.

Point 1: Changing subject.
Point 2: Dodge.
Point 3: Non sequitur.
Point 4: Empty rhetoric.

Stop, DZ. You're doing more harm than help to the causes you think you're aiding.

comment #90

Josh Massey says ...

"Jeez - young woman - divorced single parent - has a second job doing for my aged mom - this young woman did all the right things - went to school to get a legal assistants associate degree - works for an attorney - makes 10$ an hr - pays ( this is NJ - a ghetto apt costs 800$ a month) 1,000 a month for rent - has a child - with two jobs can't afford the 300$ a month co pay on the health insurance offered at her job - "

If she can only make $10 an hour on an associate's degree, she needs to start looking for another job.

comment #91

dixiedugan says ...

I'm really anticipating this film, probably because I've worked in the health insurance industry for nearly 20 years, and I'm very interested in what it'll say about mental health benefits. Also, my own husband has been diagnosed with a debilitating illness that ain't gonna be cheap to deal with, even with health coverage.

Josh, a woman who has sole care of her child may take a $10 an hour job because it gives her work hours that are compatible with her child's school schedule, so she doesn't have to pay for a sitter for an extreme amount of time, because that just eats up on the grocery money. Even if she's lucky that she has a family member that will watch the child for free, it's still no replacement for parent-child relationship. I've taken jobs so that I can work my hours around school, and most of that salary has gone for health care. Granted, I'm not a single parent but I have a lot of compassion for that woman or man that's raising them by themselves, though I would tell that woman or man to check into school insurance - sometimes it's free for the vaccinations and school related visits.

comment #92

Sean says ...

"If she can only make $10 an hour on an associate's degree, she needs to start looking for another job."

I love this idea that somebody who's barely scraping by working two jobs and taking care of her kid has time to start searching for a new job, let alone the delusion that there are enough well-paying jobs out there for everybody who tries to get them.

And you guys call liberals delusional!

comment #93

Sean says ...

"And what about food? I'll starve to death if I don't eat. That'll kill me a hell of a lot faster than cancer will! I'd like the government to feed me for free for the rest of my life"

Are you talking about food stamps? They're available if you qualify for them.

comment #94

Craig Kennedy says ...

Is there anyone else out there who thinks the health care system is broken but that Michael Moore might be the wrong guy to make a documentary about it?

I think half the people will tune him out no matter what he says. Also, it's a subject that calls for a lot of compassion and he seems like a guy more interested in blowing his own horn.

comment #95

Craig Kennedy says ...

Also Dixie, sorry to hear about your husband. I hope everything turns out ok.

comment #96

christian says ...

just get another job that pays more!

shit! it's simple!

who care if you were working for 17 years at circuit city and they laid your ass off because you were making 15 dollars an hour?

just get a better job!

this is AMERICA and every human being in the country can just GO GET A BETTER JOB WITH GREAT INSURANCE.

i mean, george bush pulled himself up by his bootstraps, right? don't all republicans?

it's clear joshua has all he needs, so why can't you all just be as independent as him?

oh, but you still have to pay for this billion dollar war. why? to protect AMERICA.

comment #97

le corbeau says ...

"Is there anyone else out there who thinks the health care system is broken but that Michael Moore might be the wrong guy to make a documentary about it?"

Yes, exactly, and that's why I'm not wondering if Europeans will care to see this-- I wonder if Americans will.

It's a complex issue made up of nothing but tradeoffs-- and as this thread demonstrates, it lends itself to simplistic bash-the-other-side sloganeering with no realistic awareness of the tradeoffs (hence D.Z. and others' willingness to spend other peoples' money so freely in the name of justice). Add Michael Moore, and...

At the very least, anyone who goes to it should watch The Barbarian Invasions for a picture of socialized medicine in practice, too.

comment #98

D.Z. says ...

"Is there anyone else out there who thinks the health care system is broken but that Michael Moore might be the wrong guy to make a documentary about it? I think half the people will tune him out no matter what he says."

At this rate, it'll be 22% of the people. ^_- It was convenient to not take him seriously, when the gun nuts were able to make him look like a liar, but when a President with low approval ratings started trashing him, he suddenly became more respectable.

christian: Too bad he wasn't in them when he was requested to serve in the National Guard.

comment #99

le corbeau says ...

"who care if you were working for 17 years at circuit city and they laid your ass off because you were making 15 dollars an hour?"

Christian, Circuit City is expecting to report a loss of $80 to $90 million for the first quarter of this year.

What would you do to solve that problem besides reducing salary costs?

comment #100

Craig Kennedy says ...

Whichever side you take, it is indeed an enormously complex issue and whether you find him amusing or not, Michael Moore isn't known for his subtlety.

It's something that needs to be argued because Americans are getting older on average and it's going to become even more of an issue for more people.

Barbarian Invasions was terrific by the way

comment #101

D.Z. says ...

Mgmax: "(hence D.Z. and others' willingness to spend other peoples' money so freely in the name of justice)"

I'd rather it be spent healing people than killing people.

comment #102

le corbeau says ...

But either way it belongs to the government, not to the individual.

comment #103

D.Z. says ...

The government is supposed to represent the individual.

comment #104

DavidF says ...

""Is there anyone else out there who thinks the health care system is broken but that Michael Moore might be the wrong guy to make a documentary about it? I think half the people will tune him out no matter what he says."

For what it's worth I think the answer is, yeah.
Moore is a real paradox and there's no question he's fudged some substantial things in his films.
Nonetheless, he serves an important role. I don't think the important thing is whether Bowling for Columbine says everything there is to say about gun violence of Farenheit 911 is the be-all-end-all about Iraq (clearly neither is).
But if someone watches those films and then starts debating with their friends, or picks up an actual book or two or begins delving deeper they will be richer for it - and so will democracy.

So Moore might not be the great social revolutionary but he does present complex issues in an entertaining way and has the potential to be a catalyst for real discussion, IMHO.

And, who knows, maybe this time he WILL nail it, knowing how everyone looks to take apart anything he slides by nowadays...

Oh, and Denys Arcand has his own perfectly legit take on Canada's health care system, obviously as shown in the rather damning take in Barbarian Invasions (and Jesus of Montreal as well, IIRC). I wouldn't cite it as proof of anything however, any more than Dr. Strangelove offers a real peek into how the US military works. We're not dropping like flies up here, you know.

comment #105

dixiedugan says ...

Gee thanks cj - the ole man's got some lovely rheumatoid arthritis, which is more complicated than just some creaky painful bones. You have to have your lymph nodes checked constantly for swelling, and other things that are too numerous to mention.

Just as an example of the health care system at work, he had to have one of these PET Scan things recently. If you don't know what that is A)look it up and B) it's very very very expensive. Mostly people with cancer (God help them) get it because it's effective in staging and blah blah blah, but it's also used in the early detection of lymphoma. The oncologist ordered one, but the kicker with PET Scans is that most insurance agencies will not pay for them without prior review, and in some cases they will not pay for them outright. Thank heavens everything was cleared beforehand because otherwise I'd be responsible for $7000 odd dollars. No shit. And on top of that, his oncologist didn't join our PPO until recently, so I'm owing $200 odd dollars to their office right now for a visit he had before the PPO contract came into effect.

I said to him the other day "what does she do to you at these visits?" He laughed and said "basically she just feels me up" - I told him it's nice that he gets that at home for free then. Maybe I should charge....

Your insurance tip for the day folks - Medicare Part D? Big rip off....bigggggggg rip off. I wouldn't let my grandma take it, that's how sucky it is.

comment #106

le corbeau says ...

"The government is supposed to represent the individual."

Some animals are more equal than others.

comment #107

Craig Kennedy says ...

See, I'm guessing Mr. and Mrs. Dugan are honest, hard working folk who pay their taxes and their bills, but because of something that's happened through no fault of their own, they have to worry about getting royally screwed and surely even the biggest cynic has to agree that's a problem.

Whether or not you think it's up to the government or the free market, something's gotta change, right?

And DavidF you make a great point about Moore in terms of him at least calling attention to an issue. If his movie gets enough traction so that it becomes a real issue in the presidential election, then it's worthwhile even if he doesn't come up with the right answers.

comment #108

Bocephus says ...

Micheal Moore should make a documentary about how much Spiderman 3 sucked. He wouldn't need to make anything up for that one.

comment #109

jeffmcm says ...

"Some animals are more equal than others."

Like rich people?

comment #110

D.Z. says ...

Mgmax: "Some animals are more equal than others."

I know that's the Republican party line, but what does that have to do with our discussion?

comment #111

christian says ...

"Some animals are more equal than others."

like everybody above the poverty line who live by conservative capitalistic platitudes that have no bearing on actual reality.

remember when prez bush told the single mother with three jobs that he thought it was "fantastic" she was working more jobs?

this from the party that believes women should be at home with the kids.

our country is sick in more ways than one.

comment #112

le corbeau says ...

Circuit City's $80 million Q1 loss is an actual reality, I didn't see your answer yet, Christian.

But then many of you are apparently living in a reality where something other than capitalism has produced the standard of living we have today. Punitive taxation, apparently.

comment #113

le corbeau says ...

Oh I forgot. We're all breathing heavy metals which are the same thing as radiation, and dying from global warming (none of which is produced by Communist countries like China, of course) and suffering a hundred Katrinas a day. There, now you don't have to post it.

comment #114

D.Z. says ...

Mgmax: "Circuit City's $80 million Q1 loss is an actual reality, I didn't see your answer yet, Christian."

It's probably because they made more business stupid decisions like Divx. Why should workers have to pay for a corporation's mistakes? A CEO with absolutely no experience earn more money than people who actually make the product.

"But then many of you are apparently living in a reality where something other than capitalism has produced the standard of living we have today."

What standard of living? We're ranked below most third-world countries, and it's precisely because of the capitalist model you admire.

comment #115

D.Z. says ...

Mgmax: "We're all breathing heavy metals which are the same thing as radiation,"

The metals are toxic, because they've been burned at abnormal temperatures.

"and dying from global warming (none of which is produced by Communist countries like China, of course"

Actually, China doesn't believe in gobal warming, either. So I guess that means we support communist values. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070430/ap_on_re_as/climate_report

comment #116

christian says ...

"But then many of you are apparently living in a reality where something other than capitalism has produced the standard of living we have today. Punitive taxation, apparently."

welcome to wall street journal land, where only capitalism reigns supreme -- so which corporations VOLUNTEERED to give you a 40 hour work week or miniumum wage or took 12 year olds out of mines or chose to look into those pesky chemical spills polluting rivers that you drink out of? which corporation did all that?

harold myerson says it best in his column on the wonders of the circuit city employment model:

"Since the '70s, American business has generally done its damnedest to keep its workers down. Employers routinely opted to pay the negligible penalties for violating the National Labor Relations Act rather than permit its employees to join unions. In 1969, according the National Labor Relations Board, the number of employees who'd suffered illegal retaliation for exercising their right to join or maintain a union was just over 6,000; by 2005, that number had risen to 31,358. According to a study out this January from the Center for Economic and Policy Research, fully one in five activists on unionization campaigns are illegally fired. And as worker power declines, so do living standards. Secure retirement pensions are history; employer-provided health benefits are going fast.

To all of this, conservatives offer no remedy whatever save to make things worse. Employer-provided pensions collapsing? Let's gut Social Security, too. Health insurance tottering? By all means, let's preserve our private, for-profit system, which currently fails to cover 47 million of our fellow Americans. All income increases going only to the rich? Let's switch to a flat tax (Rudy Giuliani's most recent brainstorm), which further shifts the tax burden from the upwardly mobile rich to the downwardly-mobile everyone else."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/10/AR2007041001309.html

so how do these mass firings of dedicated employees help capitalism or the country?

i await your answer mgmax.

comment #117

christian says ...

and while you gloat over your own 401k, why don't you regal all the american workers losing their jobs to out-sourcing by patriotic US corporations with the wonders of the free-market?

comment #118

christian says ...

but you're the same person who has no problem with taxpayers shelling out BILLIONS for the military-industrial complex with no oversight or accountability, right?

comment #119

le corbeau says ...

"Why should workers have to pay for a corporation's mistakes?"

And there we have D.Z.'s understanding of business in a nutshell. The corporation and the workers are two completely separate entities (who do you think makes those mistakes if not employees, D?), and even when the former screws up, money will magically appear each week to pay the latter, because THAT IS HOW IT SHOULD BE.

But we shouldn't be surprised, since D.Z. also believes...

"We're ranked below most third-world countries"

Yes, that's why I'm moving to Lesotho to drive a cab. D.Z., have you ever been to a foreign country? Any foreign country? Or is it hard to get flights out of Bizarro World?

As for Christian, I'm not even sure what the hell he's trying to sputter, he's swinging in so many directions and making so many assumptions. Needless to say, seeing capitalism as the source of wealth creation and improved living standards hardly requires being in favor of an unaccountable military (that's really a non-sequitur, that favoring private sector efficiency implies favoring public sector inefficiency), firing of union activists, boiling babies in polluted river water, etc. etc. You know what else I don't believe in, Christian? Absurd straw men in arguments.

Okay, it's been fun conducting an Econ 101 class here, but back to my freelance job, which I do since I got laid off several years ago, and quickly discovered I liked much better than being a safely-employed drone in a big dumb company (not that my preference mattered, since big dumb company was a dot com that soon after blew up and went away), even if it does come with a tendency to fritter away time on the Internet. Still, wouldn't trade my freedom and entrepreneurial satisfaction for the most guaranteed lifetime job in the safest, stablest socialist paradise on earth.

comment #120

christian says ...

you should call rush limbaugh up and let him know how wonderful it was to lose your job. he actually gets those kinds of calls:

"gee rush, they shipped my factory to india after i been working there for 40 years but you know what? i'm glad because now that i'm 49, i can't wait to get out there into the free market again and really live!"

it's all connected mgmax, and the fact you think
"that favoring private sector efficiency implies favoring public sector inefficiency" has nothing to do with corporations getting contracts from the govt that are paid for with our tax money...

and is halliburton your idea of private sector efficiency? or enron? or the savings and loan bailout? i'm sure you sleep great knowing that a woman digging through the trash for food in america only has to apply herself...

comment #121

jeffmcm says ...

I think it should be pointed out that Mgmax heavily relies on DZ's posts for the juiciest fodder in his arguments.

comment #122

dixiedugan says ...

Hey MGMmax - now I'm curious, in a good way mind you, not an attacking I wanna be nasty way, since you are self-employed what do you do for insurance? Did you carry over an 18 month extension from your previous employer or do you pay for an independent policy?

comment #123

sardine says ...

speaking of Cannes: Sofia Coppola's next movie will be at Cannes next year. Liza Manili, a french model will have a role. There is a very BIG NAME in the movie too....as you know the Coppola crowd does not like this website...

comment #124

christian says ...

and since you think that national healthcare would lead to the collapse of all that is holy
what's your grand solution to deal with millions of americans unable to take care of themselves or loved ones -- those that would otherwise be contributing to the economy?

the usual conservative answer remains: silence.

comment #125

SpinDozer says ...

"Is there anyone else out there who thinks the health care system is broken but that Michael Moore might be the wrong guy to make a documentary about it? I think half the people will tune him out no matter what he says."

If not Michael Moore, who?

The idea that you can address a complex and controversial subject in a way that will be equally appealing to Free Market Primacy people...HE's right wingers...or the Socialists ain't exactly high probability. If you're not making a flick about lovey dovey penguins, controversial issues require a POV. Michael Moore gives you that. If he makes a compelling case, people agree with him. If he makes a compelling case and someone disagrees with him, the opposition's best move may be to imply, insinuate, or otherwise straight-out call him a liar. That's just part of the game.

I don't know of any other doc maker that's going to make a theatrical pic about this specific subject and get the number of screens Moore will.

As far as people, tuning him out, sure, it happens. Same thing was said about Gore and it worked out ok for him (even tho people did tune him out, attack his credibility, etc.).

comment #126

Craig Kennedy says ...

In terms of him being high visibility and being able to deliver an entertaining product, you're right about Michael Moore SpinDozer. I hope he does the issue justice and it gets a lot of play.

comment #127

christian says ...

and hopefully moore won't using any of that fake footage he used before, like showing the president nullified in a classroom of kids while our country is under attack...

comment #128

le corbeau says ...

"Hey MGMmax - now I'm curious, in a good way mind you, not an attacking I wanna be nasty way, since you are self-employed what do you do for insurance? Did you carry over an 18 month extension from your previous employer or do you pay for an independent policy?"

Goddammit, I wrote a whole response to this and then I got signed out before it posted. Shorter answer: I'm on my wife's plan from work and believe me, very aware that that's the only reason I can be freelance. Contrary to the assumption of my doctrinaire lockstep conservonazism by the rabidly partisan, I agree our system is screwed up in many ways-- the fairest thing to say is that it did a good job of getting us from 10% to 70% of the population covered at a time when people held one job for life, and is now proving inadequate for the remaining 30% and a different career world. But I do not see Michael Moore as the guy most likely to bring deep insights to the problem, since he'll probably take the same "well, let's just spend more, it's justice!" approach taken to Circuit City's problems here. Which works until your society breaks down and can't afford it any more.

Basically we already have socialized medicine-- run by the insurance cos. rather than the government-- and any universal system will end up denying certain people things they think they should have. I believe keeping at least some aspect of market forces-- which barely exist under the present system, admittedly-- in the equation is fairer and more efficient, especially if you're the one whose life or death depends on it, than the completely universal, no safety valve Hillarycare-like system. (As The Barbarian Invasions demonstrated, and no I don't take that movie as gospel but I know there's truth in this, Canada's safety valve is coming to America and paying cash for procedures. What will ours be? Private bootleg health care for the very rich in Mexico and South America, most likely.)

Anyway, a complex issue, maybe Michael Moore will spur debate, maybe he'll just piss all over it. We shall see.

comment #129

christian says ...

so you're just leeching off your wife?

typical socialist.

comment #130

le corbeau says ...

You are a class act, Christian.

comment #131

dixiedugan says ...

Well, my husband is a big ole leech too Christian, cause he and my kiddle are on my policy. But then, he's a self employed carpet layer who would have to pay more money month by month on a policy than I make in two weeks, and that's no lie. My company does do a good contribution on their end, however what comes outta my paycheck makes me cringe a bit. I'd rather have it than not though.

True enough about socialized medicine being compared to insurance carriers, in some ways that is, more on the HMO end than the PPO end however. I hate hate hate HMO's, and that's putting pretty mildly - if you are a healthy type person, may only go for a once a year check up or when you have a sinus infection for example, it's cheap and great. Start having real problems and complications however and forget it. At least with a PPO plan, you will still see some payment on providers that are not in their network after a higher or way higher deductible, and usually higher out of pockets.

I think the next ten years or so will be mighty interesting with the boomer generation aging to the point of Medicare and beyond, if some ain't there already. Just remember this, there are supplemental coverages to Medicare out there, but read the fine print, not every one picks up 100% after Medicare.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure some of ya'll are probably already snoring.

You're right cj, we are hard working honest types (thanks!) - it's always those that get the short end of the stick. It's a bitch, but I'd rather be poor and honest than rich and an asshole. I'm sure there's rich nice people, I've just not met any.

comment #132

christian says ...

i'm being bitterly ironic mgmax, tho i value your film opines, it just seems odd that you would devote space to critiquing socialized insurance while you're fortunate to have it through somebody else. it's a GOOD THING TO HAVE. for everybody.

but in the future i'll tone my tone.

comment #133

christian says ...

i'm being bitterly ironic mgmax, tho i value your film opines, it just seems odd that you would devote space to critiquing socialized insurance while you're fortunate to have it through somebody else. it's a GOOD THING TO HAVE. for everybody.

but in the future i'll tone my tone.

comment #134

christian says ...

and not post twice

comment #135

le corbeau says ...

How are being on a family plan and socialized medicine the same thing? The way insurance works, even when I had a 9-5 job, we were both on her plan because a family plan covers all of us, kids included, for less than each using our individual plans at work (also, she changed jobs less, it was just easier to be on hers). That's no more socialism than paying one mortgage and living in the same house.

There are a lot of ways insurance could cover more of us without going to a pure single-payer system, is the point. It's not an either/or in which the bad guys are keeping us from the one, obviously right and completely problem-free, answer.

Anyway, but I do appreciate taking it down, I'm trying to too.

comment #136

christian says ...

my point is thank god you have that plan -- most don't.

and a company i do work for laid off 80 percent of its employees yesterday to send the work overseas -- so now you have 20 plus adults with bills families and no insurance plugged right back into the wonderful american "free" market.

we live in the most powerful nation on the planet and healthcare in other countruies DOES WORK despite the propaganda and it's Econ 101 to realize that people that are sick and need medical help are going to be a bigger drain on the economy than those that get help and can be productive again.

i thought we were a christian nation tho...

comment #137

Dave Polands Gut says ...

Heres a solution if bills are too high. Get coverage!

Ask the people of England how great nationalized health care is. You cant get a doctors appointment there for weeks.

We live in a free market society. Not communism.