comment #1

Earl Hofert says ...

Well, that settles that.

Of course, we haven't heard from the homies yet. . .

One question--if Stuart claims to have never watched an episode of "The Sopranos," exactly how would he be able to cite the show's "formal aesthetic"?

comment #2

MikeSells says ...

I've only seen a handful of episodes. It looks like he got whacked to me. Mainly because the last shot is so abrupt. His expression isn't fraught with significance or anything. He glances up and it cuts to black.

comment #3

Nate West says ...

Given the bathroom-guy's vest and the parking business with Meadow, there's evidence to suggest that it's not a "hit" per se at all, but a suicide bomber.

In any event, given the abrupt cutting, something violent occurs--to Tony, to his family, or to "the viewer." Whatever the nature of this fatal interruption, the result is the same: oblivion.

comment #4

MickTravis says ...

"I saw an episode of Matlock last night. It was in a bar and the sound was turned down, but I think I got the jist of it."

What's up with all these people who've never seen "The Sopranos" suddenly rolling out of the woodwork to comment on the end of the series?

comment #5

Nate West says ...

"All plots tend to move deathward. This is the nature of plots. Political plots, terrorist plots, lovers' plots, narrative plots, plots that are part of children's games. We edge nearer death every time we plot. It is like a contract that all must sign, the plotters as well as those who are the targets of the plot." --Don DeLillo, White Noise

comment #6

MickTravis says ...

Honestly, I think debating the ending is like debating the missing Pine Bluff Russian. Multiple interpretations are possible, but the only person who might know is David Chase and he's simply not going to spill it. So it is whatever you want it to be.

comment #7

Mr B says ...

I don't think he got hit personally but it is up for interpretation. I have a question though, everyone is talking about the guy going to the bathroom to grab a gun ala Godfather. Why the hell would he hide a gun in the bathroom. In Godfather, there is a very good reason, but for this guy in this diner there is no reason whatsoever other than homage. He could just come into the diner with a gun. There is no one that is gonna pat him down. But hey I actually watched the series, what do I know?

comment #8

hiviper says ...

Hate to admit it, but given the foreshadowing with the dialogue with Bobby earlier in this season ...the last thing Tony sees in his life is Meadow's face coming through the front door and.. lights out.

comment #9

tholl-yung says ...

Katie Couric is about to reveal all.

comment #10

Arran says ...

I second the comment about how if he's never sat through an episode, what does he know that the show has "always had a very formal aesthetic"? Also, to me that scene (in fact, much of the episode) was edited rather oddly. Which would seem to be breaking with this aesthetic he speaks of.

I'll say it for the umpteenth time: unless Chase flat-out tells us what the deal is, I don't think anyone can say what "definitely" happened, no matter how much evidence they find pointing one way or another. If you feel strongly about a particular interpretation, go ahead and believe it.

(And Mick, hearty thumps up on the Simpsons quote. "Maaaaaaatlooooooooock!")

comment #11

MDOC says ...

I think it's obvious, Tony is a replicant.

comment #12

Arran says ...

And another thumbs up to Mick for saying exactly what I did but earlier and in fewer words. :)

comment #13

Crow T Robot says ...

Disagreed.

During the hour, AJ & Meadow made peace with love and career, Carmela settled into life as the matriarch and Tony saw the uselessness of therapy, came to grips with Junior's humanity and ended up the last gangster standing. Thusly, the episode (and series) ended at the exact moment the Soprano family reached their own weird version of harmony: When they got under one roof to break bread as one.

And, just like that old Scott Bakula show, the millisecond David Chase met his objective in this world he leaped out.

Sure, my heart was beating a mile a minute (every minute) but looking back, the diner scene was about Tony getting used to the oddness of NEVER HAVING TO LOOK OVER HIS SHOULDER AGAIN. And why should he? The bad guys are all gone! (Can we start acting like adults and throw out the murder nonsense please -- this isn't M. Night Shyamalan)

Also: All the writers today who mentioned Phil's death as the high point of this episode have (to quote A&E reruns) no freaking idea what this show is all about. This was a family drama disguised as a gangster epic... not the other way around.

comment #14

bmcintire says ...

I don't know him personally, but Chase's reputation as a skilled writer and director would lead me to believe that he would follow the narrative dictums of film and the gangster genre expressly to subvert them, not to telegraph what's going to happen next. And Jeff, I know you've got a hard-on for this Jamie Stewart guy, but really, did his unfamiliar-to-the-Sopranos observation need its own indiviual thread?

comment #15

tholl-yung says ...

Stop the insanity. It was a cliffhanger, Chase left all options open. He couldn't let go like Alan Ball did.

comment #16

MarkEbner says ...

Yeah, it was a "hit" alright: David Chase, to steal a phrase, KILLED HIS OWN SHOW. It's over.

Black Screen.

Mark Ebner
http://www.hollywoodinterrupted.com

comment #17

Geoff says ...

Really? Someone can be absolutely 100% positive that a guy somehow knew they were going to Holsten's and hid his gun in the bathroom Godfather style?

comment #18

p.Vice says ...

Exactly. There is no right or wrong answer. Jeffrey had it right the first time -- before he caved into conventional thinking, as he likes to do -- acknowledging that the Soprano family lives on in uncertainty. I can't believe that after years of the same nagging debate over how the show will end, that anyone would think Chase would give Tony an ending wrapped in a nice, neat little bow. If that's what you wanted, you deserve your frustration.

comment #19

Mr. Muckle says ...

I'd hate to have most of these guys on a jury. THERE'S NO EVIDENCE! You can only go by what's there. What happened to Tony is what you can see. When it goes black, it goes black and you don't friggin know anything else.

What got whacked is the show. It's over. Damn that, because the Sopranos was fascinating. But I certainly feel for its creators and Gandolfini. Enough. They're rich, and probably very tired.

comment #20

jeffmcm says ...

The formal techniques that Jamie Stuart is pointing to are all designed to ratchet up the tension to make you _think_ something is going to happen, which is in keeping with Sopranos tradition - something banal is always happening just before someone dies, as can be seen with Phil Leotardo.

But to decide 'yep, Tony got whacked, case closed' is to insist on demand closure of a series that has never preferred it; to insist on catharsis in a world where it doesn't exist; and to deny oneself the pleasures of ambiguity and neverending interpretation.

comment #21

JVD says ...

I think the notion that Tony is whacked at the end really takes away from what was a perfect conclusion to the show.

I think the idea of the sudden, ambiguous ending is far more satisfying in the long-term. When the screen cut to black I paused for a second, thinking my DVR went kaput and then actually jumped up and down, excited by what David Chase just did. The stones on that guy. He not only whacked his own show, but saved us from having to view everything that came before it as some sort of half-assed morality play. Tony whacked, Tony snitching, Tony arrested by the feds would cast a new (and reductive) light on the entire show, which I feel was always built for repeat viewings. Tony's actions are left up to us to judge and analyze. There are no safe and easy prisms or rose-tinted glasses to view this series through. And I think that's scary and frustrating for a lot of viewers who never knew how to categorize Tony Soprano. I love that we get to remember Tony the way he was, both a normal guy and a monster, fraught with problems at home and in his career, never knowing when the other shoe is going to drop. The guy is complex right up until the last cut to black. At least that's my interpretation. That episode was built for talkbacks, and like Twin Peaks, we'll still be talking about it 10 years from now.

In regards to the shitstorm, my favorite quote about the epsiode comes from a viewer posting at Television Without Pity:

"I think David Chase finally gave the people who were complaining about the Russian something else to complain about!"

It says it all, doesn't it? Bravo, David Chase. You are an original.

comment #22

mutinyco says ...

It's not ambiguous to me. I think it's ambiguous to people who were fans of the show, who knew all the characters, cared about them, had expectations, etc. I don't/didn't. I think people are overthinking it. The scene, as it exists, tells me that Tony was hit.

And I think the refusal to accept that is just the denial stage of death. It's easier to accept the ending as open. Or to contibue debating it as a means to not let the show really end.

comment #23

Mr. Muckle says ...

Sure, mutinyco, and a dragon ate the sun last time there was an eclipse.

comment #24

jeffmcm says ...

Mutiny, the fact that you didn't regularly watch the show means that you don't know the context tht Chase was operating within. Look at Matt Zoller Seitz's article as an example of someone who actually knows of which he speaks.

comment #25

rocco says ...

Mr. B -- The bathroom's significance is definitely drawn from the Godfather, although the logistics of the hit are (would be) completely unrelated...

...and I'll say again there is enough portending to support a Tony hit, but not AJ, Carm, Meadow...although AJ and Carm swallow their onion rings whole like Tony, so maybe they die and Meadow witnesses it all...

....Although the songs playing and listed on the juke box still hint at something more ethereal...

"Only the Strong Survive"
"Somewhere in the Night"
"Turn, Turn, Turn"
"A Lonely Place"
"I'm Alive"

There were also several songs with "dream" in the title played throughout the episode...I'm not convinced it was all surreal, but someone less lazy than I might go back and find other hints that Kevin Finnerty dreamed the whole damn thing...

...for what it's worth...Tony looks at the guy as he walks past their table into the bathroom and there is not a hint of concern or recognition.

I'm kinda digging Crow's take...

...although one would have to question how anyone know where Tony would be to set up that hit, I'll stick with him taking a bullet to the head while the fates of AJ and Carm are unknowable...

comment #26

nemo says ...

We don't have cable TV at our house, so I don't have a dog in this fight. But over at digbysblog.blogspot.com, there are some interesting comments from a smart guy named Michael Bérubé:

"... I think of the moment in Casino when Joe Pesci's character gets killed while doing the voiceover so that the voiceover itself gets cut off. You don't come across that narrative device every day, now, do you. ... it suddenly puts us right in Tony's place. But look at what happens as a result: we don't have to see the "reaction" shots from his family or from the rest of the patrons as all hell breaks loose. His life just ends. There's no catharsis for us at all ..."

"Now, the fact that Chase didn't even give us a gunshot to go on, no clue that Tony really dies -- well, so what? Are there really ghosts in The Turn of the Screw, or is the governess mad? (That debate has been going on for more than a century now.) We're left to wonder whether we've been duped into thinking that Tony dies because all the staging in that final scene -- the brief shots of each of the restaurant patrons, the focus on the guy going to the men's room, the closeups of Meadow having trouble parking the car -- feels like the generic suspense-creatin' mechanisms that precede a catastrophe. We stop and ask ourselves how much of our reaction depends on those narrative mechanisms. And so the ending becomes, in a meta- way, not Chase's "final fuck you" to the viewers (as so many pissed-off viewers have said) but, rather, a form of what did you expect? -- except that it's a real question, not a rhetorical one."

Then a wiseguy commenter adds:

"When that martian ship came down and sucked Tony Soprano through the ceiliing of the diner -- whoa -- now that was an ending."

comment #27

mutinyco says ...

MCM - not trying to argue. I didn't expect my e-mail to Jeff to be posted here.

In my opinion, everybody is trying too hard to contextualize and overthink it. The scene is very logical, aside from the 2001 cut of Tony looking at himself upon first entering the diner.

And taken completely out of context that's the way the scene plays out. There are a lot of people entering the diner, lots of cutaways -- all done to throw off what's actually happening. But it's very obvious if you watch it without any predisposition that the guy at the counter is the hitman. He enters the bathroom just to the side of Tony. And that's that.

Whether you choose to agree with me or not, I'm probably one of the few people offering a take who DOESN'T CARE and DIDN'T WATCH the show. It's a clean observation. And that's what's good about it.

comment #28

JVD says ...

Can we all at least agree on one thing? If David Chase can make eating onion rings and trouble parking a car that parks itself heart-pounding, what can he do to reinvent the thriller?

comment #29

jeffmcm says ...

Mutiny: the whole point of the show, is to be thought about and put into context. If it's just a show about 'oh, well obviously this happened' then it's no longer a work of art worth discussing, it's a docudrama. Your out-of-context impression is the red herring that Chase wants to provide - he builds suspense and makes it clear that _something_ is going to happen - and then it doesn't.

comment #30

BurmaShave says ...

I don't think Wells' habit of highlighting and underlining words has ever been more annoying than in this post. I have my own opinions, but people need to stop pretending that the ending is obvious. This isn't SLEEPAWAY CAMP.

comment #31

mutinyco says ...

MCM-

You see, I think it's the exact inverse of what you're saying.

I think Chase knew everybody would be overthinking it. That's why he did it as such.

And I think that not watching the show, or the finale, simply reading that disconnected final scene for what it is, it's very obvious.

comment #32

MiraJeffAICN says ...

Two things. 1. If you haven't seen every single episode of The Sopranos, I don't care what you have to say about the finale. You are the definition of bandwagon. Go away. 2. Who the fuck is Ian Sinclair? He knew the ending a day early. This guy is either Chris Albrecht trying to get revenge on his former network and spilling the beans a day early, or he's a fucking magician. Either way. consider me impressed. And Jamie Stuart, video artist, you are a complete tool. No one reads film according to dolly movements. Do you hold a degree in cinema studies? Are you a film or television critic? No, you're just an industry dude who's seen a handful of episodes and then decided to personally email Jeff... Wells, why do you run with shit like this? This guy's opinion is worthy of its own post? C'mon, give me a break. You can consider Tony dead if you really want, but if that's what Chase wanted he would've delivered the money shot. But he didn't because killing Tony would be like killing his baby. He's going to live the rest of his life looking over his shoulder, never having the comfort of knowing his family is safe. That state of constant amplified paranoia is worse than death. I just pray Chase doesn't give in to demands for a movie. The Sopranos story ended beautifully last night, and the people who really think Tony is dead must've wanted him dead in the first place, and those are folks I can't understand.

comment #33

JVD says ...

So you have no frame of reference here, mutinyco. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know...

comment #34

MickTravis says ...

Not too many episodes ago, Tony drew a sawed-off, double-barreled shotgun on a car that was speeding up his driveway.

He squinted into the headlights, started to bring the shotgun up and then realized ... it was only A.J. coming home.

In another episode, hoods staking out Phil's neighborhood saw a silver-haired man in the same kind of Cadillac he drives, but when they knocked on the door and shot him, it turned out to be a Ukranian immigrant.

I don't want to keep griping at people who didn't watch the show (especially when their casual emails are presented as sure-to-be-provocative posts) but people who didn't watch "The Sopranos" on a regular basis simply can't be familiar with the show's constant slight-of-hand and defiance of expectations, right down to (and perhaps typified by) the series' previews of what would happen next week. Those were funhouses of decpetion.

Anyway, it's neither here nor there.

I found "John from Cincinnati" quite odd. It has a ways to go before it justifies itself as the distraction that took David Milch away from "Deadwood."

comment #35

mutinyco says ...

little children.

good night.

comment #36

le corbeau says ...

The problem I have with everybody who's trying to work this out according to known Mob logic is-- you're assuming The Sopranos is about the Mob.

Like Goodfellas (which is its primary influence, far more than The Godfather films), it's about materialism, it's about the compromises you make in life, it's about getting older, with the Mob being used as an extreme example-- they make the same compromises we all make, just dialed up a lot higher dramatically. What would be drab dramatized as part of your life becomes much more exciting when guns and tough-talking Italians are involved.

So the logic of the last scene is not, would this be a good way to hit Tony Soprano, would his family guarantee his safety, yadda yadda. Partly it's about how fleeting life is-- the dialogue is about appreciating the good times before they're gone, this get-together (at the kind of place they'd have taken the kids when they were toddlers) is presumably one of the last times they'll do that as a family before the kids go their own ways as adults. It may be a little more immediate in Tony's case but hey, Death's coming for all of us soon enough. And memories have to be grabbed while you still can, as his visit to Uncle Junior, whose memory is gone, especially drives home.

So it's a melancholy scene that any parent with nearly-grown kids might experience. But of course Tony isn't any parent, and he should have a particularly large load of guilt mixed in with his. So he's haunted by ghosts-- we clearly see Robert Patrick, we're reminded of the two black kids from many seasons ago, we see a head of hair across the room that must be Frank Vincent's silver pompadour even though he's dead, we see the Members Only guy who looks like somebody who must hate Tony, which season was it, we can't remember and neither can he.

And, like so many ghosts in movies (or even more weirdly, like the astronaut at the end of 2001), Tony sees himself sitting there, waiting to eat. Plotting the precise logistics of a kill isn't what the scene is about-- though it's happy to keep suggesting that one is just around the corner. It's more an impressionistic scene of how memory and regret and the sense of life passing you by can overtake you at once, all mixed up in a non-linear way. Is he dead a second later, or 30 years later, mind scattered and body in a wheelchair like Junior? What's the difference? Our little life is rounded by a sleep...

comment #37

bmcintire says ...

Jamie/Mutinyco's closing entry typifies for me why Jeff loves him so much. Video artiste. Meh.

comment #38

jeffmcm says ...

Mutiny, by your logic if I wandered into the last ten minutes of Godfather II, I would assume (spoilers!) that it was a movie about Al Pacino being totally uninterested in the death of some unknown guy in a boat. Or from the last five minutes of Citizen Kane, that it was a story about an intrepid group of reporters. Context is everything when interpreting a complex work.

Your attempt to consider yourself smarter than everyone based on proudly knowing less about the text is...silly.

comment #39

MickTravis says ...

By the way: I just watched the ending again and realized that Tony doesn't see himself in the restaurant, 2001-style.

There's never an over-Tony's-shoulder perspective on Tony at the table. It's just a startling cut, meant to heighten tension.

Heather H. at Salon also said that Meadow is almost hit by a car crossing the street. That didn't happen either, it was all in the way the sound of traffic was manipulated.

comment #40

le corbeau says ...

"By the way: I just watched the ending again and realized that Tony doesn't see himself in the restaurant, 2001-style."

Right, in one of these threads that was talked about so I just assumed everyone knew that while that's the startling effect you get from it, it doesn't actually happen.

comment #41

Mr B says ...

I would even go a step further and say that even if David Chase said tomorrow "He's dead, or he's alive", it doesn't matter. Once something is created and left for interpretation, that work has a life of its own, it is for each person experiencing it to complete it, just like with most great novels or any art.

comment #42

mutinyco says ...

MCM -

The first rule of criticism is that you cannont bring something into the text that isn't there. What you and everybody else are doing is bringing your full baggage of feelings and ideas about the series as a whole onto that ending.

That ending is Kubrick. It's logical. It's not Lynch doing Mulholland Drive where it never fully adds up.

If you watch the filmmaking in that scene, what I said is straight up. It's an accurate read of the text.

I'm not the only person who's suggested it. I am however a target to be argued with because I casually admit to not being a fan of the show without a great knowledge of its narratives.

comment #43

Chris Willman says ...

There are two things that make me believe it was a hit:

1) The flashback in the previous episode to the discussion with Bobby.

2) But, more than this, and much less discussed: Meadow's parallel parking problem. There is randomness in "The Sopranos," to be sure, but when something is as focused on as Meadow's parking ineptness, it isn't just a random detail--it's significant. And the only significance it could have that I've seen anyone talk about at all is this: As long as she isn't at the table yet, a hitman walking by is going to have an open shot at Tony. If she were there, it probably wouldn't happen.

Thanks, Meadow. Because you're such a lousy driver, your dad is dead!

comment #44

MickTravis says ...

Well actually, mutiny, you sort of boasted that your lack of knowledge made you an impartial witness. And you called us children. But no biggie.

I actually threw you some empathy just before the children thing. Because I think Wells posted your personal email to bait readers. He's funky about "The Sopranos." He's a fan who surfed up episode info *before* he watched the episodes in question. What self-respecting fan does that?

comment #45

Chris Willman says ...

mutinyco: Everything about Mulholland Drive adds up, to me. (Well, except for the scene with the two guys who go out behind the diner, who never show up again.) I think it ended up being one of Lynch's most schematic movies.

comment #46

le corbeau says ...

"but when something is as focused on as Meadow's parking ineptness, it isn't just a random detail--it's significant."

The scene's full of could-be-significant details. It plays out like a memory reconstructed after something terrible happened-- if only I'd done this different... There's half a dozen people in the scene who might be there to kill Tony-- as well as the sight of a dead man across the room. (Or maybe two, counting Tony.)

And then it ends, without showing us anything. That's why I think people who say "it was definitely a hit" are being too reductive. I think the scene says "Maybe it was tonight, maybe it was a year from tonight, but when it happens it will be like this, mundane in a thousand ways except for the fact that a human life will end in the middle of all the other activity and at most you'll have a few gawking spectators like Phil Leotardo."

http://people.virginia.edu/~djr4r/icarus.html

comment #47

jeffmcm says ...

Mutiny: yours might be the second rule of criticism. The first is that you actually have to have more than a casual knowledge of the text you are speaking about in order to properly explain what is happening.

Your reading would be an accurate reading if the scene was a short film, but it's not. It's one scene out of one episode of a much larger series, and therefore must be considered in that context.

comment #48

mutinyco says ...

It's still correct.

comment #49

Jay T. says ...

If you've never seen The Sopranos before, your opinion is WORTHLESS because anyone who has watched is well aware that Chase likes to mess with our expectations... so filming a scene to create a certain mood means nothing as far as the conclusion is concerned. Now, if you want to believe he go whacked, what IS note-worthy is that the guy in question in the diner is Phil Leotardo's nephew.

comment #50

Arran says ...

I just watched the end of The Shawshank Redemption. Now, I only saw the last 30 seconds, I haven't read the novella, and I haven't seen a single other Darabont film, but it's plain as day what happens given that Darabont's films and Steven King's books both have such a rigidly formal aesthetic. Freeman slits Robbins' throat just after the camera tilts up. Period. End of sentence. That's what happens. I have a fresh perspective and you are all wrong.

By the way, I have never made or studied film but I did once make a submission to America's Funniest Home Videos.

You disagree? Children. Run off and play.

comment #51

mutinyco says ...

Most critics know nothing about the movies they see before they see them. In fact, most don't even remember the names. They just RSVP because the screenings match their schedules.

comment #52

Arran says ...

"Most critics know nothing about the movies they see before they see them. In fact, most don't even remember the names. They just RSVP because the screenings match their schedules."

Yes but, Joel Siegel aside, they watch the entire films before passing judgment and consider individual scenes within the context of the big picture.

comment #53

mutinyco says ...

The reason I called you "little children" is because you're not making observations about the scene -- but trying to deride me for stating what I saw.

comment #54

Jay T. says ...

On a follow-up note, is anyone else extremely angry with the general perception that the ending of this show was terrible? I think it was probably the best TV ending of all time (or right up there with Cheers) - anything that causes this much discussion had to have done something right. I'm dying to see what David Chase will do on the big screen.

comment #55

jeffmcm says ...

How do you know it's correct?! You haven't seen a single episode of the show? I think you're a pretty big Stanley Kubrick fan, so how would you like it if someone came on here having seen the last scene of The Shining and said "oh, well obviously it was set in the past and that was a picture of him when things were good". Or the end of Full Metal Jacket and announced that it was a sad ending because obviously Matthew Modine must have known that Vietnamese girl from somewhere so he was sad she died.

What does your 'most critics' post have to do with anything? Those are the bad critics, the Rex Reeds of the world.

comment #56

mutinyco says ...

You can analyze and contextualize all you want (that's the show, that's life). But dead is dead. That's it. And that's the end.

comment #57

mutinyco says ...

No, MCM, both examples you're giving are trying to contextualize and read outside of the texts of those scenes. I'm taking about a clear observation of the action camera/editing and logistics on display.

comment #58

jeffmcm says ...

You really don't get it, do you? I'm talking about metatextualism and irony. You're insisting on the most obvious and literal meaning possible, and digging your heels in because of the position Wells put you in.

comment #59

JVD says ...

Although there are certain tenets of film criticism, most films set up the criteria upon which they are to be judged and by which events should be interpreted during their runtime -- typically between 90 and 120 minutes.

The Sopranos has gone on for roughly 86 hours, most of which you haven't seen. Therefore, your interpretation of certain aesthetic choices David Chase was making in that final scene is due to the critical baggage you are bringing to the scene -- your culmulative knowledge of the medium and how that applies to what you feel is going on in the scene. However, your analysis fails to take into account the rules set up by the series creator during the first 85 hours of the run time. You're not wrong, per say, you're just judging from an extremely limited vantage point. The difference between film criticism and good TV criticism is the time you invest. 86 hours versus 5 minutes. That's why your analysis is being met by derision.

comment #60

rocco says ...

You don't make a show involving this thing of ours in which a conspicuous character walks famously into a bathroom at a moment your audience is expecting an assassination without implying something very definite. Chase is too smart to think any conclusion other than Tony's death would or could be drawn...

...He's dead. Never saw it coming. Very gratifying and EVENTFUL ending, masterfully done...not sure why other's interpretation, or lack thereof, should spoil anyone's enjoyment or satisfaction in "figuring it out".

comment #61

Arran says ...

For what it's worth, here's David Chase:

"I have no interest in explaining, defending, reinterpreting, or adding to what is there," he says of the final scene.

"No one was trying to be audacious, honest to god," he adds. "We did what we thought we had to do. No one was trying to blow people's minds, or thinking, 'Wow, this'll (tick) them off.' People get the impression that you're trying to (mess) with them and it's not true. You're trying to entertain them."

"Anybody who wants to watch it, it's all there."

Some fans have already assumed that the ambiguous ending was Chase setting up the oft-rumored "Sopranos" movie, but that doesn't seem to be in the cards.

"I don't think about (a movie) much," he says. "I never say never. An idea could pop into my head where I would go, 'Wow, that would make a great movie,' but I doubt it.

"I'm not being coy," he adds. "If something appeared that really made a good 'Sopranos' movie and you could invest in it and everybody else wanted to do it, I would do it. But I think we've kind of said it and done it."

comment #62

mutinyco says ...

MCM -- and you're just arguing because you like to argue.

comment #63

jeffmcm says ...

Yes, your reading of the action/camera/editing on display is correct - within the scene. But it doesn't take into account a lot of other thematic concepts present in the rest of the episode, and the series at large, aka the full text.

Read Matt Zoller Seitz's review. It's clean, it's clear, it sums it all up elegantly.

comment #64

jeffmcm says ...

Mutiny: I like to discuss with people who can hold a reasonable debate, and I like to argue with people who need to understand why they're wrong.

comment #65

Mr B says ...

I still say, it makes no sense for the guy to go to the bathroom to grab a gun. Michael had to do that in the Godfather because he was patted down, but in this diner scene it makes no logistical sense. So if we are reading the scene just based on facts and no outside knowledge of Sopranos, Godfather, or anything else, it makes no sense! Why the hell would he need to hide a gun in there (assuming he had prior knowledge that Tony was gonna eat there in the first place). I know Chase may have been making a nod at the Godfather, which is fine, but I think it was just that, a nod. Sopranos may have had its dream sequences, its peyote trips, but it was still always based on reality and logical.

comment #66

mutinyco says ...

MCM --Matt and I have already e-mailed each other about this.

But between us, thank you for acknowledging that my reading of the filmmaking is correct. I was never attempting to put it in context, hence why I stipulated I didn't watch the show.

The context gives you meaning. You're free to contextualize it all you want. That doesn't concern me.

I was simply breaking down the action, and explaining why this is the correct conclusion. Seems lots of people needed it explained.

comment #67

jeffmcm says ...

So you agree that you don't really know what you're talking about, 85-hours-wise?

comment #68

JVD says ...

I think it's safe to return to the relative tranquility of debating torture porn and the filmgoing habits of Hispanic families.

comment #69

Mr B says ...

I hope that mom didn't let her children see the last scene in the Sopranos, way too tense for a child.

comment #70

Mr. Muckle says ...

Well, mutiny is just the sort of pissant know-it-all child he complains about. What a jackass. The evidence is all here in the thread. I know this person absolutely, even though I've never heard of him before. Anyone who thinks otherwise is just ignorant and wrong. Ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Get it? -- oh, I have to explain. It's a parody of his own judgement based on watching about .5% of an exceptionally inventive and unpredictable series. Brilliant! No wonder Hollywood's usual output is so friggin stupid.

comment #71

BurmaShave says ...

mutinyco, ambiguous is ambiguous, and not being a fan or watcher of the show, you're not familiar with the ways in which Chase was teasing us and twisting the knife with the suspense. It was really more about setting up Tony's paranoia than anything. You're welcome to your own interpretation, but it's just that, and it's severely hobbled by not being a long term viewer. You're really becoming insufferably smug and defensive. Shut the fuck up, Donny.

comment #72

mutinyco says ...

MCM -- I admit that this thread was never about what you're trying to make it about. It was about an accurate reading of the filmmaking in that scene. That scene only.

And you've already admitted that I was right.

comment #73

MickTravis says ...

Here's a theory: Mutiny is Wells.

I could be wrong, it's just a theory and Mutiny could be real (I haven't seen him, so I won't insist upon it), but this type of sentiment sounds vaguely familiar:

"You can analyze and contextualize all you want (that's the show, that's life). But dead is dead. That's it. And that's the end."

Either way, it's like arguing global warming with Exxon.

comment #74

Don Murphy says ...

mutinyco you argue like you evaluate- with your head up your ass. Without seeing a season finale before you couldn't possible interpret the "filmic" language. You should stick to analyzing the "aeolian cadences" in the Beatles music and shut the fuck up. You are without brains or point.

Jeff MCM Stuart being wrong doesn't mean that you are not a dick. You are. And you will argue with anyone as long as they tip you on the way out of the men's room. But I won't.

The "Journey" ended, the show cut out, we believe whatever we wish to.
Fin.

comment #75

jeffmcm says ...

Mutiny: You're right _if this scene was a self-contained short film_ which it is not. It's the last page of Ulysses, the last stanza of The Inferno, the final ten bars of Beethoven's Fifth (apologies for the hyperbole). It's part of a larger and more complex whole, in ways you are not aware of, having not viewed the bulk of the show.

comment #76

BurmaShave says ...

it goes on and on and on and on...

comment #77

JVD says ...

What hath David Chase wrought? The producer of "The Transfomrers" calling one 'net poster a dick and accusing the other of having his head up his ass. Made in America indeed.

comment #78

MickTravis says ...

"Who was that?"

"That was Don Fuckin' Murphy."

"Word!"

comment #79

Don Murphy says ...

MickTravis That name rules in so many ways I can't count it, but if you've found the reason to live on and not to die you are a LUCKY man!

comment #80

jeffmcm says ...

Hi Don, how's Transformers going?

comment #81

Don Murphy says ...

Jeff, Transformers is done and came on tracking like a cyclone. Biggest film of the year. You heard it here first. Every studio that turned me down is hating themselves right now.

How is the urinal cake replacement going in your world, jeff?

comment #82

tholl-yung says ...

Can I please just piss you all off? Your tv fritzed and the song cut out at full volume, though not in the middle of a word -- how fortunate. It wasn't ridiculous, but it wasn't sublime, it was ANTI-SUBLIME. Who cares, it's over. Don't keep dragging it back, like Paris, who just happened to be on the other line while her "Mom" Kathy just happened to be on the phone with Barbawa, and Paris just happened to have an elaborate religion toned message to go with her catatonia and severe ADD. Blech Paris and Chase -- let's see him make a movie.

comment #83

jeffmcm says ...

Don, I'm looking forward to Transformers - but there's no way it's the highest-grossing film of the year. I'm glad that you're enjoying the thrill of destroying your many, many enemies, though.

comment #84

Don Murphy says ...

JeffMcm
when it does end up as number one will you then gargle with lye?

comment #85

JVD says ...

This conversation has been surreal. Where's Binder, Hickenlooper and Kevin Smith to make this one for the ages?

comment #86

jeffmcm says ...

Yes I will. Will you reciprocate when it doesn't?

comment #87

jeffmcm says ...

Actually never mind, Don - you've probably built up a tolerance to 'substances' which would render you impervious.

comment #88

Don Murphy says ...

No, of course not. I unlike you would at least have a few friends who missed me. Duh!

comment #89

jeffmcm says ...

Gotta go Don, it's been real.

comment #90

Don Murphy says ...

Scrub and flush Jeff!

comment #91

mutinyco says ...

Good luck with Transformers. You'll make a lot.

One thing to consider, however -- there are signs of wallet fatigue starting to settle in with all the big movies this summer. It'll open, but that might affect your repeat business.

Anyhow.

comment #92

Don Murphy says ...

but the aesthetic of the 16 wheeler when it transforms into Prime- that's what I REALLY want to hear about.

comment #93

JVD says ...

Don,

Is it too late to change up the soundtrack? There's a Journey song that I think would fit well at the end of the movie.

comment #94

tholl-yung says ...

I gotta say, Don's original post is right.

comment #95

scooterzz says ...

it's taken me a day but i feel i've found a solution that works...for my money, the penultimate episode was the finest of the season in it's writing, action, acting and it's brilliant final shot...so, as far as i'm concerned, THAT was the season finale...last night's show was just a contractual obligation or, even better, an extended dvd out-take....i love living in denial...it's so pretty here...

comment #96

mutinyco says ...

C'mon, now you're starting to masturbate in front of the mirror.

Actually, there were a few shots in the first trailer that really reminded me of PJ's Kong -- they moved a bit like the ape and one shot of two charging at each other resembled the T. Rex fight.

But that was within the context of the trailer. I'm sure there's more to be seen in the 2 hours of the full movie...

comment #97

BurmaShave says ...

Don Murphy, may you crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

comment #98

Arran says ...

JVD wrote: "This conversation has been surreal. Where's Binder, Hickenlooper and Kevin Smith to make this one for the ages?"

Kevin has in fact posted about the matter at hand. And he says...

"The great debate seems to be whether Tony was killed or not. Some are theorizing that, since the show is (primarily) told from Tony’s point of view, when his point of view ended (gun shot to the back of the head), the show ended - the last thing he saw being his daughter walking through the diner door.

"Problem with that theory is that the last shot wasn’t Tony’s POV. The last shot was of Tony himself - no gun creeping into his coverage (a’la Phil at his SUV window). Were it meant to be his POV, and we’re meant to think he’s been capped, the last image before the hard cut to black would be of Meadow - maybe even Meadow reacting to something we can’t see… because that would be the last thing Tony saw. So, for me, Tony’s still alive. The show simply ended. Granted, there’s room for interpretation; that’s just mine."

comment #99

scooterzz says ...

i'm betting that 'transformers' will be, at best, third for the summer....not bad for a pic thats only goal is to 'blow shit up'......

comment #100

jeffmcm says ...

Okay, Mr. Robinson, I took care of the stain on the tiles and I refilled the sanitary napkin holder - oh shit, wrong blog.

comment #101

bmcintire says ...

Be careful with that theory in here, Arran. According the Mutinyco the Video Artist, Tony is dead - and that's all there is. Any other interpretation of this purposefully ambiguous ending is not only less logical, less obvious or less pat, it is downright incorrect. Thanks for insta-filmschooling Jamie!

comment #102

BurmaShave says ...

But that was within the context of the trailer. I'm sure there's more to be seen in the 2 hours of the full movie...

Posted by: mutinyco at June 11, 2007 10:43 PM

Kind of like how what you watched on Youtube was just in that brief context, and there is probably more to glean from an understanding of the series?

Checkmate.

comment #103

mutinyco says ...

Burma has no sense of irony.

See, this is what you guys were actually arguing about: my admission of not watching the series as a dismissal of the series. Which it isn't.

However, I am right about the ending. Regardless of the preceding 82 hours.

comment #104

BurmaShave says ...

mutinyco has no sense of Checkmate.

comment #105

Ian Sinclair says ...

Well, you folks have certainly been at it. Reading swiftly through, the theory by the oafish Mutiny has no bounty and Murphy is as right as everyone else who has drawn their own conclusion using inductive or abductive reasoning. My own own used pure deductive, if for no other reason than it is more poetic and intellectually and satisfying, and it amused me to use the system of a fictional detective upon a fictional crook.

From A STUDY IN SCARLET; the speaker is a Mr. Sherlock Holmes: "In solving a problem of this sort, the grand thing is to be able to reason backwards. That is a very useful accomplishment, and a very easy one, but people do not practise it much. In the everyday affairs of life it is more useful to reason forward, and so the other comes to be neglected. There are fifty who can reason synthetically for one who can reason analytically."

comment #106

mutinyco says ...

Believe what you want.

I'm right. Learn how to watch filmmaking, then call me what you wish.

Everybody is too prejudiced by their own scholarship of the series to see the scene for what it is.

Tony was hit. Go on "believing" what you want. That's what dramatically plays out in that scene.

comment #107

BurmaShave says ...

Wells and D.Z. had a son, and his name was Mutinyco.

I come to you with open arms to tell you it's any way to want it. You can keep on lovin', holdin' squeezin' your own opinion all you want. For the rest of us, the wheel in the sky keeps on turning.

My personal favorite Journey song is of course You're a Major League Asshole and You Have No Idea What You're Talking About. Go to bed.

comment #108

Ian Sinclair says ...

Well, I for one have learned to watch filmmaking, so thank you for the permission to call you a arrogant, clueless blowhard with the perception of a doorknob and the manners of an ape.

comment #109

jeffmcm says ...

Mutiny, how hard is it to get this into your skill: it's not about what is in the scene itself, it's about how the scene interacts with the episode as a whole and the series as a whole.
This is not being 'prejudiced by their scholarship of the series' This is basic entry-level analysis. You can't judge something without understanding the context and you yourself admit you don't know the context.

comment #110

BurmaShave says ...

You have jeffmcm and IanSinclair agreeing with each other. Surrender!

comment #111

mutinyco says ...

Actually, I just woke up. I live on the East Coast.

Let me know when you wake up.

All you guys can do is try to call me names. You have no argument here. So you resort to schoolyard nonsense.

comment #112

jeffmcm says ...

I meant skull, not skill.

comment #113

Doghouse Reilly says ...

Stuart's grasp of basic filmic language is tenuous.

The sequence is NOT based around POV editing. Aside from the odd shot early, when Tony seems to look at himself, and the shots of the jukebox, the camera does not adhere to Tony's perspective. It roams the room and the street, showing us - the audience - things that Tony does not clearly, even could not, notice.

The conclusion that Tony gets hit has to be based on the idea that the camera is with Tony - that when the screen goes black, his life ends - that he didn't see it coming.

But of course, the crucial final shot is not the camera looking at Meadow from Tony's POV, it's the audience looking at Tony. It's not Tony who didn't see it coming, it's us.

That is to say, if you want to be literal about what the shots mean (based on the earlier line about "never seeing it come"), the hit is on us.

comment #114

jeffmcm says ...

What's more important is the fact that David Chase, in directing the scene, is aware of several facts: that this is the very last scene of any Sopranos episode; that the episode has been surprisingly bloodless; and that his audience has been expecting some sort of thunderous climax for the last several years to wrap up the series.

With that knowledge in his head, he knows that the viewer is already on edge in this final scene, primed for _something_ momentous to happen. Chase takes this expectant paranoia and runs with it, giving us all manner of portentous details - a stranger staring at Tony, a delayed parking job, a series of looks that Tony gives to possibly signal his discomfort, plus rising music (a Sopranos staple) and a totally banal setting (a typical setting for Sopranos violence) meaning that everyone is expecting it. Chase indulges this tension, this paranoia...

and then cuts it off.

He knows what he's doing and cinematically, outside of the context of the show, not really knowing how it works, of course an outsider is going to mistake Chase's trick for the real thing. But it's not the real thing. It's a bluff.

Okay?

comment #115

mutinyco says ...

He's dead, guys. Give it a rest.

If I'd said, I've seen every episode and this is my conclusion, this wouldn't be so controversial. This is about me not watching the Sopranos.

I'm still right about the scene. The camera dolly was motivated, motivated to specifically follow an important piece of information -- in this case, that character and the spatial logistics of where he's going.

You guys care too much about this. You need too much from the ending. And cannot accept its austerity and finality.

comment #116

BurmaShave says ...

mutinyco, to be serious, you are the one who has no sense of irony. Everything you say about dollies and aesthetics being used to show Tony's POV is actually about putting us in his frame of mind. The last five minutes of the show were able to take the most banal images (people walking into the shop; Meadow trying to park her BMW) and make them fit into this mood of impending doom.

The war was over, his family was finally stable, so why is Tony so scared? Heavy is the head that wears the crown? His general longterm problems with anxiety? (Which you would understand if you had a scholarship in the series, as you say). Whenever he hears that chime, he knows that could be it. Also, don't pretend the sight of Meadow, depending on her expression, couldn't in itself upset him. It finally put us inside his head.

You're also so obsessed with the camera aspects (typical video guy I guess) you're totally ignoring the music cues and the dialouge, all of which emphasize a circuitousness (Journey; Onion Rings, etc.) They fucking ended it right before the chorus, for fucks sake. Depriving us of catharsis is the intention of the whole bloody scene. You may say I'm wanking, but how can you be so assured of your position considering your limited knowledge?

Using your logic, Patrick Bateman slaughters everyone at his lunch table, Scarlet O'Hara is obviously devoured by zombie slaves, and Rick and Inspector Dreyfus are killed by the Nazis. They're walking in the fog! I'm sure there's a dollie somewhere in there.

I'm embarrased to have you on my coast. Get thee to a nunnery.

comment #117

mutinyco says ...

Grow up, guy.

comment #118

jeffmcm says ...

Fuck!

Mutiny, you're acting like a sucker. I don't mean that to insult you, but rather to describe your position as one fooled by what seems like perfectly obvious mise-en-scene/camera/editing when in fact it's not obvious at all. The scene illustrates rising suspense because Chase is playing to his audience's expectations and then thwarting them. The scene is entirely supertextual; if you had ever watched any significant chunk of the show you would know that it operates like this in important scenes.

comment #119

mutinyco says ...

Holy shit, Jeff! YOU'RE OVERTHINKING IT!

YOU'RE OVERTHINKING IT!

You need it to be more than what it is. Your mind is too prejudiced by your scholarship. I assure you, you and eveybody else have overthought this shit WAY MORE than the creative team ever did. Most art is like that. The fans and scholars see whatever they want into things.

There is a very basic logic to what occurs in that scene dramatically. And until you can see it for what it is on its most base level, you cannot begin to contextualize it. You're STARTING from context, then trying to watch it. It's the other way around.

comment #120

Ian Sinclair says ...

Uh- oh, he's starting to use caps. Someone call security.

comment #121

jeffmcm says ...

How do you know if I'm overthinking it when YOU'VE NEVER WATCHED AN EPISODE OF THE SHOW?!

It's like telling my I'm overthinking Ulysses by saying that it's about a parallel between an Irish Jew and a Greek Hero when it's obviously just about a dude wandering around town all day, basing that perception from a quick glance at one page.

You. Do. Not. Know. What. You. Are. Talking. About.

(and your view of art as expressed above is disturbingly limited.)

comment #122

BurmaShave says ...

Mutinyco, if you can't act like an adult, we're going to have Don Murphy sick some Decepticons on you. We may even have to break out the Dinobots.

comment #123

mutinyco says ...

"what seems like perfectly obvious mise-en-scene/camera/editing when in fact it's not obvious at all. The scene illustrates rising suspense because Chase is playing to his audience's expectations and then thwarting them. The scene is entirely supertextual; if you had ever watched any significant chunk of the show you would know that it operates like this in important scenes."

It is obvious mise-en-scene/camera/editing. And your continued variations on the word 'context' prove quite obviously that you're overthinking things.

Especially after you already admitted I was right last night.

What you want to argue about is the greater meaning of the scene. Fine. Go ahead. But that's not the content of the e-mail I sent Wells, nor was it his reason for posting it. And your continued avoidance and inability to grasp this tells me that YOU'RE not very good at reading things.

comment #124

le corbeau says ...

Pretending the last 60 posts (except BurmaShave's last one) didn't happen:

'You don't make a show involving this thing of ours in which a conspicuous character walks famously into a bathroom at a moment your audience is expecting an assassination without implying something very definite."

Yes, but what he's implying is "Hey, you remember the Godfather, this could be just like that"-- and not "A guy's going into the bathroom to get a pistol because I can't think of anything original myself."

That's the problem with Mutinyco's certitude. He thinks he knows what Chase is saying-- but to a large extent, he isn't saying, he's quoting to make us think of any number of expected things, in order to then pull the rug out from under them.

comment #125

Ian Sinclair says ...

Mutinyco, I have seen smarter things than you running around farmyards with their heads chopped off. Do you get off on making a fool out of yourself? Where, just out of interest, do you normally go to get insulted when HOLLYWOOD ELSEWHERE is offline?

comment #126

mutinyco says ...

This isn't like The Godfather at all.

In The Godfather, the gun was placed in the bathroom because Michael was brough to the location by the targets, and he knew they'd search him.

Here, this guy almost certainly had the weapon already on him. The bathroom in this case was to offer a logistical means to approach Soprano. The mind game is that you're expecting the guy to get him on his way toward the rear. But that's why we're shown the bathroom, which offers the perfect location for him to get Tony on the way out.

comment #127

jeffmcm says ...

Mutiny, I admitted you are right conditionally: if this scene exists independently, unaffected by the 80+ hours of the show, then you are correct. Since that is not the case, you are arguing with no basis to your position.

It seems as if you really do not believe it is possible that the scene's meaning could be changed based on its position within the series as a whole. And that screams volumes about how you perceive and read visual images.

comment #128

mutinyco says ...

MCM -- you're not listening. I'm not arguing the scene's meaning. I'm simply describing what functionally takes place. YOU'RE talking meaning. Meaning does not alter action. Action is action. Meaning is something applied to it.

comment #129

jeffmcm says ...

This is not like The Godfather, because when they made The Godfather, nobody had ever seen a scene before where a gangster goes into a bathroom to get a gun before killing someone.

David Chase has seen that scene, and he knows his audience has seen that scene, both of which affect his decision-making process in directing the scene.

comment #130

rocco says ...

Mr. B -- no one is implying the guy went into the bathroom to retrieve a gun...the bathroom is merely an homage to the Godfather and a harbinger of things to come. Practically speaking, the bathroom offers a better vantage point from which to come out with gun blazing to blindside Tony.

I don't think it really matters which interpretation you choose...death or a life of paranoia...so long as you feel comfortable and confident with that conclusion. Neither is definitive, but accepting one versus the other allows for some sort of closure.

comment #131

jeffmcm says ...

You are arguing the scene's meaning. You're saying 'Tony gets capped' which pretty much affects the scene's meaning in a big way. And we're all telling you, 'not necessarily' based on what we know, having watched more of the show - I mean having ever watched the show.

Did you send all of this theorizing to Matt Zoller Seitz? Did he send you a response?

comment #132

mutinyco says ...

I'm out. I have real things to go do now.

comment #133

jeffmcm says ...

Thank god.

comment #134

drturing says ...

Please just ignore Jamie Stuart. He's an internet troll and film festival rat who uses junket coverage to pitch screenplays, and wrote an essay about how he was the vanguard of low budget american indie digital filmmaking when he couldn't even get the budget of 'Once' together, while relating the story of how he couldn't get into the AFI. And an arrogant prick along with a blinded literalist. I'll bet he has a definitive meaning for the Mona Lisa's smile derived from a glimpse of her eye and his study of brushstroke application.

http://www.moviecitynews.com/voices/2005/stuart.html

so you know how to use a dvx-100 and attend a film festival... gimme a break. i'd rather be a child than a delusional manchild prick who wants to tell me what my interpretation of the elusive and abstract is.

comment #135

BurmaShave says ...

DOWN GOES STUART! DOWN GOES STUART! OH, THE HUMANITY!

comment #136

jeffmcm says ...

"I assure you, you and eveybody else have overthought this shit WAY MORE than the creative team ever did. Most art is like that."

Sorry to beat a lame horse, but the above is a pretty odd thing for someone who fancies himself a filmmaker to write.

comment #137

moorish says ...

Who is this mook writing to Jeff that we should take his opinion as gospel? Screw that.

I am an avid Soprano fan and have seen every episode. And, whether you like it or not, there is NO WAY you can know whether Tony got whacked or not. It's AMBIGUOUS! That is how Chase intended it and you can pontificate about film language all you like (personally I thought there were some very dodgy edits in the finale), but you can't definitively state that it happened one way or the other for sure. YOU DON'T KNOW. And that is the point.

On a related note - does anyone here check out the HBO episode guides? I checked it after watching the finale and the final line was "Meadow rushes inside just in time for..." with the summation continuing the theme of ambiguity. But if you look at it now, it says "Meadow rushes inside just in time for dinner". The "..." has gone. So perhaps it's the official HBO line that she just went in and sat down and they ate.

YOU'LL NEVER KNOW! Get off your high horse and get over it, people.

comment #138

BurmaShave says ...

"As the year wound on, I decided it was time to dig up a short that I’d storyboarded and partially shot in 1997. It centered around a slacker who scrounges enough change to make himself a hamburger for lunch, then selflessly gives the lunch to his pet cat and iguana when he sees they’re stressing too. He subsequently winds up at the park where, after a series of misfortunes, he’s corrupted and turns on his ideals: he steals a cup of change from a bum."

CUT TO BLACK.

comment #139

le corbeau says ...

"I assure you, you and eveybody else have overthought this shit WAY MORE than the creative team ever did. Most art is like that."

Yeah, David Chase just pooped out any old ending because he didn't think anybody would pay that much attention.

He certainly couldn't have laid the groundwork for a million conversations deliberately by throwing out clues pointing in different directions....

comment #140

BurmaShave says ...

Well, hopefully we can all at least unite in agreeing that John From Cincinnati sucks.

comment #141

MickTravis says ...

"I know he can get the job, but can he do the job?

"I'm not arguing that with you. I'm not arguing that with you. I'm not arguing that with you...."

comment #142

BurmaShave says ...

MickTravis, I can only hope you are suggesting that the end of The Sopranos was Tony's Braincloud kicking in.

comment #143

Doghouse Reilly says ...

I reiterate:

Context aside, Stuart is flat out wrong about the technique.

We're talking about art here, so of course it's possible to make arguments about what is implied, but as far as what is LITERALLY represented by the shots, the hit is on the audience, not Tony.

There is no POV editing, no alteration of Tony looking with what he's looking at. We're not in Tony's head. The last shot is not Tony looking at Meadow. It's us, looking at Tony look up. The screen goes black, our final glimpse of him is awaiting his favorite person's arrive but looking up, anxiously.

comment #144

MickTravis says ...

Nah, Burma, I'm suggesting that this once-lively debate has become like listening to Mr. Watori on the phone.

I'm leaving for Waponi Wu. But first Marshall and I need to pick up my luggage....

comment #145

tholl-yung says ...

He didn't just cut to black, he killed the music at full volume too. If he'd had any balls, he'd have done mid-word/lyric. He's an ego-centric pussy who just wanted to leave every door open, he's no better than Paris.

comment #146

Bocephus says ...

Remember Before Sunset? In the end, Jesse and Celine go up to Celine's apartment. They flirt a little. Celine puts on a record and begins to sing to Jesse. Movie ends. What a brilliant and perfect ending!

Ditto Sopranos.

comment #147

JVD says ...

T. Holly,

What is your obsession with equating David Chase and Paris Hilton? (You were trying to pedal this tripe on Poland's blog, too.) The two have zero to do with each other. Alleging Chase took the easy way out creatively has nothing to do with anything Hilton did to skip prison.

comment #148

George Prager says ...

My apologies for coming late to the party. Tony wasn't wacked. We were just treated to a scene showing what his his life is going to be like until he gets whacked or arrested. Bu that's just my opinion and everyone else has theirs. That's the beauty of the thing.

That said, let me say that mutinyco is a "whining, sniveling, uncreative, self-absorbed, self-important, stenographic, faux au courant high-brow aesthete."

I stole that.

comment #149

jeffmcm says ...

T. Holly: he didn't cut mid-word because it was important that the final two words of the series be "Don't Stop". I'm not exactly sure why, but I am sure that it was intentional.

comment #150

Rich S. says ...

You know, while reading this unbelievably entertaining exchange, I was reminded of something Frank Miller said after The Dark Knight Returns came out. I wish I could find the exact quote, because it's great.

Anyway, he was asked whether he felt any responsibility for "tampering" with Batman's history. He said no, because Batman is a fictional character. You can do anything you want to him because he's not real.

You can argue all you want about what David Chase's intent was in putting together this last scene. But ultimately, the outcome doesn't matter because Tony Soprano doesn't exist and never did. Whatever you want to happen to him, can happen to him.

Personally, I prefer to think that the last scene in the restaurant ended with insurance salesman Tony Soprano telling his family about this great idea he has for a show. It's about a gangster and his family and he's going to use his own life as a template. The scene ends with his wife Carmela telling him that it's so far-fetched that no one will believe it. His daughter Meadow encourages him to put it together and pitch it to someone. And his son A.J. yells out to the waitress, "Where's the f*ckin' ziti?"

comment #151

OddDuck says ...

I LOVE LOVE LOVED the ending to Before Sunset. In fact, the last fifteen or so minutes of that movie are just about perfect. Obviously the context of its ending is a little different than that of a longstanding series, but I'm glad Bocephus brought it up.

comment #152

tholl-yung says ...

If it were mid-word someone would be saying it supports the idea that Tony expired when it went black. Chase just had to leave it open. Songs, dialogue are never cut mid-word or on an eye blink. He couldn't/wouldn't commit. It's selfish and if you don't get my Paris point, you're... dumb.

comment #153

BurmaShave says ...

That's hot. (Are we talking pre or post Jesus Paris?)

comment #154

jeffmcm says ...

I certainly did not think it was selfish or cowardly. I thought it showed artistic integrity and boldness.

comment #155

Reedyb says ...

All these arguments I think point to the great ending this show had.

A lot of shows try to make their final episodes BIG in a way that the series never was. I'm thinking of St. Elsewhere's revelation of "it's all in the mind of a child" to The X-Files big trial of Mulder. They betray the ongoing nature of a series. TV series are not movies. They don't have a beginning, middle and an end. They go on until they don't.

The Sopranos was always frustrating in some ways because it never gave instant gratification. It was always intriguing because you got more out of it ran around your brain (think Pine Barrens or some of the dream sequences).

The end showed what could happen and what might happen but not what did happen or when it would happen.

Maybe it's all paranoia. Maybe it's a portent that an end could come to Tony at any time. Maybe it's a signal that the end DID come to him that night.

AJ said, "Remember the good times" Tony didn't remember saying it. Junior didn't remember any of it.

We should remember the good times and think about what might have happened or what could happen.

Yes, Tony Soprano lives. Just like Yossarian lives. Just like Frodo lives (ok, maybe not just like Frodo).

It's not a eulogy. It's a celebration of the Tony we contemplated in the long breaks between seasons. It's a celebration of the power of a fictional character to take hold of our imagination.

It's full of stars.

comment #156

JVD says ...

T.Holly, I get your Paris point. It's retarded and not germane to the conversation. Moving on.

comment #157

gatsby1040 says ...

Every single piece of Mullholland Drive makes perfect sense, including the two guys in the diner, who indeed DO show up again.

comment #158

tholl-yung says ...

I have to go play in the sand lot banking on Transformers now. Chase is a withholding little bitch and ego-centric. Someone mind posting a link to the interview he gave about the ending.

comment #159

JVD says ...

http://blog.nj.com/alltv/2007/06/david_chase_speaks.html

He doesn't say anything useful to add to the finale. In fact, given your feelings, reading this will probably enrage you further.

comment #160

hatchetface says ...

"That ending is Kubrick. It's logical. It's not Lynch doing Mulholland Drive where it never fully adds up."

Never fully adds up? And you are here to interpret visual narrative for us? Get the fuck out.

comment #161

Craig Kennedy says ...

I hate to be the first guy to pee in the snow, but I'm shocked (SHOCKED I tell you!) there have been 150+ comments in a Sopranos thread and as near as I can tell no one has mentioned The Wire.

I like to think we've all grown as human beings.

comment #162

JVD says ...

cjKennedy, mentioning The Wire will ensure this thread reaches 200-plus posts, especially if someone who doesn't watch the show alleges its just about police surveillance and nothing more based solely on five minutes of observing the mis en scene.

comment #163

OddDuck says ...

OK, as long as someone ELSE brought up The Wire, gotta chime in and say I'm so glad it's coming back for a fifth season. That, and The Sopranos, and most everything else HBO has done for episodic television over the past decade is proof that there's still humanity and grace in the entertainment business.

For Wire diehards, Donut and Michael both appear (albeit in small roles) in Half Nelson, a great movie I rented last night.

comment #164

mitch says ...

I find this whole multi-thread dissection of the Sopranos finale to be proof that, given the freedom, writers can still engender a fantastic (and sometimes seemingly malicious) amount of emotion into a product and that the small screen routinely trumps the big screen for brilliance.

comment #165

Craig Kennedy says ...

Me and my big mouth...

comment #166

Rick22 says ...

Am I the only person on the planet who thinks Meadow is pregnant? The look on her face. There's urgency there -- an announcement, trepidation, excitement... right? Carmela specifically mentioned "birth control pills," not "shopping" or "coming back from her boyfriend's." Tony looks up to see her -- and dies before he ever hears the news, his attention distracted once again by that jingling bell. The next generation is here -- his time is up. Birth and death -- all at once.

comment #167

Geoff says ...

Doghouse Reilly said "There is no POV editing, no alteration of Tony looking with what he's looking at. We're not in Tony's head. The last shot is not Tony looking at Meadow. It's us, looking at Tony look up. The screen goes black, our final glimpse of him is awaiting his favorite person's arrive but looking up, anxiously."

I like what you're saying because I like the idea of the audience getting whacked. However, I must admit that I immediately thought Chase was playing the "POV game" if you will. Even though he doesn't literally show POV shots throughout the final moments, by giving us that shot of Tony appearing to look at himself I just immediately thought it was a way to bring us in to his world. However, the more I think about it, it could just be the beginning of a jarring disconnect between the show and the viewer, because in the end it does seem like we were the ones that got hit. It's a very interesting shot/edit that sticks with me.

comment #168

mutinyco says ...

Still here. No damage done.

I still find it funny that it's easier for you little children to try to assassinate my character than to counter my observation of that scene.

Feel free to call me whatever you like.

In the end, I'm still correct.

comment #169

jeffmcm says ...

No, you're not.

I think it's funny that in spite of being told over and over again that you lack sufficient information on which to base your claim that you stubbornly persist in doing so; and then think that you can somehow enhance your postulation by calling people 'little children' when all that does is weaken your case.

comment #170

JVD says ...

Mutinyco,

That's how you read the scene. We get it. We accept it. Other people have differing opinions. Read the previous 100 posts that do a pretty damn good job of countering your observation.

Let's face it, you did yourself no favors when you opened your critique of that scene with your opening salvo, "I've never sat through an entire episode of The Sopranos..."

Wells has finally posted something else. Let's move on. Oh wait, it's about The Sopranos too.

comment #171

Doghouse Reilly says ...

Sufficient information and sufficient understanding of "filmic language".

Geoff - I agree with you about the editing. It's a strange sequence - almost bracketed by that odd cut early and the blackout at the end, with the middle being classic suspense editing.

What prompted me to write was the annoying claims by some that the sequence of shots and formal choices leads to some empirical truth about what happened.

To me, that shows not just a lack of understanding of film aesthetics and history, but a lack of basic film sense.

comment #172

Jay T. says ...

"implying something very definite" should never be used about David Chase and The Sopranos - anyone who has watched the show closely knows this.

comment #173

drturing says ...

Jamie Stuart, i gather from your usage of syntax and sentence construction and delicate punctuation here in this excerpted sentence from your essay, that despite the layers of ambiguity attempted upon first read it most definitely occurs to me you're a douchebag.

"I immediately began the process of applying to the AFI. It wasn’t really a serious move, more the use of leverage to get my family to invest $1500 in the project – though I certainly would’ve gone if I’d been accepted. (I wasn’t.)"

comment #174

AJW says ...

Jaimie, if you turned on Silence of the Lambs when the FBI descends on what they think is Buffalo Bill's house (ring the doorbell and the buzzer in Bill's lair goes off) and turned it off when Bill puts his hand on the front doorknob, would you argue that the FBI just caught him? Clearly that's how Demme and his editor set up the scene, so is that how you would read it without the baggage of context? Perhaps Chase just cut to black when Bill reached for the door.

However, I also believe Tony is dead. That weird edit when he enters Holstein's establishes that when normally we would receive a POV shot from Tony's perspective we will actually have a shot of Tony's face. That's why we see Tony's face each time the door opens, particularly for our purposes when Meadow walks in and Tony gets whacked. Further, the show is called "The Sopranos", but could just as easily be called "The Tony Soprano Hour". Just like the Godfather saga ends when Michael dies, The Sopranos ends (a bit more abruptly) when Tony dies.

comment #175

mutinyco says ...

drturing, nice to know you'd take the time to Google me. Or did you have that bookmarked? Anyhow, to return the favor, I Googled you. Not sure how many drturings there are, but this brilliantly composed prose was credited to you at another site:

"Because the Spartans themselves were slave owners. They conveniently get called "Helots". But how can the Spartans teach us of the desire of men to be free when they themselves lived in a totalitarian state? And when you were all working on the movie, and the Queen gives her big speech in which she says "Freedom isn't free!" didn't anyone on the crew say "it costs a buck oh five!" thereby letting everyone know that you actually use a line from Team America in all seriousness? That's right.... There's a moment in this movie where someone in all seriousness says "FREEDOM ISN'T FREE". The crowd I saw it with were laughing at this movie. And getting bored by the 212th spin around and poke spear move. I hate to say this, cause I really really dig Zack Snyder's Dawn of the Dead and Frank Miller..."

comment #176

Don Murphy says ...

mutinyco - please be coherent, or funny, or clever. You so far are just redundant and boring and stupid.

What drturing posted by you was the work of a retard aged 7. What you posted by him was intelligent and creative.

You can't even smack someone down properly.

You understand that every post for the next year that you make someone here will post DOUCHEBAG after it simply because it is from you?

comment #177

mutinyco says ...

Don, I'm not taking your bait.

comment #178

Arran says ...

AJW, I think that's the best comparison yet.

comment #179

BurmaShave says ...

Don, is there any chance we can have Peter Cullen call this boy and talk about leadership?

comment #180

AJW says ...

Thanks Arran. Too bad mutinyco would rather engage in a stupid Internet pissing contest than a bit more highbrow discussion.

comment #181

mutinyco says ...

AJW, I didn't start the insults. I simply sent an e-mail to Wells, who decided to post it. Almost immediately the attacks began on me. And if you'll notice, most of the comments toward what I initially stated have been met either by people telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, or by attacks on me personally. If this thread went off course, that's not my doing.

The fact is, I offered a very clear, logical observation on that final scene -- one which holds up (and one which I hadn't expected to be posted). And that's all I ever had to say on the subject.

comment #182

Craig Kennedy says ...

Let's push this mother over 200.

I was thinking that, no matter what Chase intended or how anyone interprets it, by not literally showing what happened, Chase has left the door wide up to further adventures with Tony and the family.

How do fans of the show feel about that? Should they milk it ala X-Files or should they just let it end before it becomes a mockery of itself?

comment #183

rocco says ...

There's enough to draw a CONCLUSION, but a definite SOLUTION? No. Let it rest.

cj...thanks for the welcome earlier...not sure I mean to stick around once my Soprano fix is satisfied...I mean it--a few weeks away from here (or any message board) and the internet can seem like a much less hostile place...

comment #184

scooterzz says ...

i've already posted this thought on another thread but in the spirit of rallying to the call to 'push this mother over 200' can we all agree that there's really no reason to keep hbo at this point?.....'sopranos' is gone, bill maher is on hiatus, 'entourage' is a short season sitcom and 'flight of the conchords' seems a bit of a dud (based on the three eps i've seen)......just wondering if anyone else is cutting the cord...

comment #185

scooterzz says ...

oops....i forgot 'john from cincinnatti'...i've seen the first three and I FORGOT 'john from cincinnatti'.....hmmmmmmmmmm, that certainly says something...

comment #186

AJW says ...

Jamie, I certainly don't blame you for what's transpired in this thread, though you haven't exactly poured water on the fire. Truth be told, I've only seen the 1st 5.5 seasons of The Sopranos, but since I don't have HBO I won't be able to watch 6B until it comes out on DVD in the fall.

I have fond memories of reading your Scorsese bashing during a mundane summer job and your rather audacious backing of War of the Worlds (which I cribbed from in my defense of it), so I actually respect your opinion. Maybe you can explain why Cruise's son survives in that film and how that matches your objective filmic reading? Also, perhaps reconcile your reading of the Sopranos ending with this statement from that same review in which you decried those who *misunderstood* A.I.: "They even missed Spielberg's A.I., taking the ending as literal!"

Would you please address my initial post in re: Silence of the Lambs?

comment #187

AJW says ...

With regards to HBO subscriptions, isn't Curb coming back for a 6th season (please Larry David!)? Do you watch the Wire? (I watched disc 1 season 1, but nothing more, but people seem rabid about it.) Not sure how much HBO costs versus your value of those possibilities, especially since they won't be on for a while, but with the absence of Sopranos and Deadwood...what else is there?
I love Netflix. "Better late than never" should be their slogan.

comment #188

BurmaShave says ...

Jamie, your smugness and air of superiority opened you up to all forms of criticism that have been heaped upon you.

comment #189

mutinyco says ...

No offense, and not a cop-out...

Gonna have to take a raincheck. I'm beat, finishing pre for a shoot tomorrow. Maybe another thread another time.

comment #190

BurmaShave says ...

Yeah in this one tomorrow, he makes a peanut-butter sandwich for the iguana and then it gets sick. It's gonna be BRUTAL. The logistics, man, the fucking logistics...

comment #191

Craig Kennedy says ...

I've watched 2+ seasons of The Wire and it's good stuff.

HBO should be cancelled just for what they did to Deadwood. Now that Sopranos is gone...why not?

Of course like junkies, everyone will just be hoping for one more good high even as they're dragged through the gutter by their ankles.

comment #192

scooterzz says ...

yeah, forgot about 'curb'....but hbo has an interesting relationship with the press...they send out the first three eps of original series before they air and then send out following eps after they've aired....makes coverage a bit tough but, at least, we have everything on dvd before it streets.....
showtime, on the other hand, sends out complete seasons before air....makes life pretty...we love showtime.....
bottom line...hbo is, well, over......

comment #193

BurmaShave says ...

scootz is right. Between Dexter, Weeds and Californication, which looks like a hoot, Showtime is where it's at. I just can't abide The Tudors though, but I understand I'm in the minority there.

comment #194

scooterzz says ...

i was bored to death with 'tudors' (but got a fucking fortune for the presentation package on ebay)....anyway, hated the series but 'weeds', 'dexter' and 'californication' are the bomb......

comment #195

scooterzz says ...

uh...kinda wish i hadn't posted that....could we get this to 200 people!?.....

comment #196

mitch says ...

fuck getting to 200 posts

comment #197

mitch says ...

what a vapid goal to shoot for

comment #198

mitch says ...

seriously...what's so important about 200 posts?

comment #199

Arran says ...

197...

Where's Hickenlooper to rail against the post-modernism of The Sopranos?

comment #200

Arran says ...

Sorry, I believe that would make my previous post actually 198th. Which makes this 199. Unless mitch jumps in again.

comment #201

mitch says ...

I just can't be a part of this lame attempt to reach 200 posts. I'm going to bed.

comment #202

scooterzz says ...

i can't help but smile that even the assholes stepped up....oh, it's a good day in blog-land...

comment #203

AJW says ...

Ok, I had a response to Jamie for this thread that was erased when my step-family's computer restarted without my permission. Jamie, please respond to what I've said and what I've quoted of yours.

I have favorable memories of reading your reviews, so please don't simply consider me a negative fan of your subjects. I also respect your inability to respond above...just please respond at some point, possibly to another thread so everyone knows you're not a "cop-out" and mean "no offense". To make clear, I believe you, but others may have actually lent these 7000 responses less credence.
What the fuck am I saying? Who knows at 3:50AM?

comment #204

scooterzz says ...

uh, bartender......i'd like what ajw is having...

comment #205

AJW says ...

Was that a superficial 200? Rats.

comment #206

BurmaShave says ...

206. I'm proud of all of you.

comment #207

Craig Kennedy says ...

Jesus Mitch, I think you're late for Buzzkill class.

comment #208

jeffmcm says ...

"Gonna have to take a raincheck. I'm beat, finishing pre for a shoot tomorrow. Maybe another thread another time."

How much preproduction do you need to be able to point your camera at the inside of your apartment and talk to it?

comment #209

Craig Kennedy says ...

Ok, that was really mean but it made green tea come out of my nose when I laughed out loud so I give it a free pass.

comment #210

mitch says ...

golly cj...I thought my sarcasm was pretty well defined.

now that we've settled that, isn't it time to honor frank miller here on jeffrey's site and try to hit "300" ?

I just couldn't help myself.

comment #211

Craig Kennedy says ...

You see what happens when I take someone seriously? I'm the one that ends up looking like a jerk.

I've learned my lesson.

comment #212

mitch says ...

nah, no worries cj...it seemed funnier last night. now that I look at it today, it doesn't read as well (especially since I think I missed 199, which was my goal...doh!)

comment #213

BurmaShave says ...

Before this thread is over, the world will know that few stood against many.

comment #214

mitch says ...

burma, you made my night!

comment #215

mitch says ...

one last comment on the whole Sopranos finale...

I haven't yet coined in on the meaning of the last two minutes or so, but it feels to me that chase was attempting to put the viewer in the mindset that tony would be in for the rest of his life. even when you seem relaxed, you'll forever be looking over your shoulder.

if you managed to watch those last two minutes or so without being tense, then you *may* have missed the point entirely (and you probably weren't emotionally invested in the show enough to even empathize).

comment #216

juanma says ...

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