Obama's situation

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Three factual statements: (a) Hilary Clinton has more black supporters than Barack Obama, (b) the archetypal Barack Obama voter "is a 28 year-old white woman with a Masters degree," as Tucker Carlson said on MSNBC a few minutes ago and (c) there's a certain portion of the electorate who will never vote for Obama because he's black. The last statement especially. We all know this deep down, and that the no-way-in-hell voters are not just old-school Jim Crow types with shotguns racks in their pickup trucks. But no one will ever address it, least of all the Obama campaign.

comment #1

erniesouchak says ...

Just like the Clinton campaign will probably never address the fact that a good chunk of voters don't want a woman president.

comment #2

christian says ...

which explains the FOX support for her.

comment #3

christian says ...

i.e., they want her to run because they think this will be her defeat.

comment #4

James Leer says ...

...And should we pander to those people, Jeff? It really makes me angry when the people who make the biggest deal of "Oh no, we could neeeever elect a black president" are fellow liberals. Well, on paper, I wouldn't have expected Republicans to elect a pro-abortion philanderer, a former coke-abusing fuckup with a DUI, or a Hollywood actor married to a Kennedy, either. But they did. Because when people's backs are against the walls, they overlook things in a way that would surprise you.

Also, (b) is not a factual statement whatsoever.

comment #5

giantman says ...

How about the certain portion of the electorate that won't vote for Obama because he is just friggin' inexperienced and wet-behind-the-ears, so not ready to be president material?

Good grief the choice of candidates this round surely sucks wind.

comment #6

Walter Sobchak says ...

I won't vote for Obama or Hillary. That must mean that I don't believe a black person or a woman is capable of being president.

And remember, you're only REALLY a black person or a woman if you're a Democrat. People like Olympia Snow, Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Michael Steele and Liddy Dole don't count as women/black people.

comment #7

D.Z. says ...

"Hilary Clinton has more black supporters than Barack Obama,""

It's good will from her husband.

"the archetypal Barack Obama voter "is a 28 year-old white woman with a Masters degree," as Tucker Carlson said on MSNBC a few minutes ago"

So he can get the young people better than Hillary. That's always helpful. (See John Kennedy.)

"there's a certain portion of the electorate who will never vote for Obama because he's black. The last statement especially. We all know this deep down, and that the no-way-in-hell voters are not just old-school Jim Crow types with shotguns racks in their pickup trucks."

Yeah, they're just the white people who don't like blacks living near them, or getting affirmative action or social services; but they think they're "tolerant", because they are against "discrimination" or "segregation"...

giant: "How about the certain portion of the electorate that won't vote for Obama because he is just friggin' inexperienced and wet-behind-the-ears, so not ready to be president material?"

At least he can pronounce "nuclear"...

Walter:

"And remember, you're only REALLY a black person or a woman if you're a Democrat. People like Olympia Snow, Colin Powell, Condi Rice, Michael Steele and Liddy Dole don't count as women/black people."

Not based on the policies they've supported, anyway...

comment #8

admiralmpj says ...

It's kinda important to note that it's not even August. After you've belched out the last of your Thanskgiving Turkey, then you can start kvetching about this. In the meantime, with each passing day, the "African-American" support needle inches Obama's direction. And let's also remember that Obama's fundraising isn't coming from nowhere.

Also, Walter, I'd like to point out that as an African-American, I feel it's perfectly within my rights to call out other African-Americans who have betrayed their own. If you've supported an Administration that was "elected" by denying your own people the right to vote (Powell, Rice), you are suspect in my book. If you're a water carrier for a Court that seeks to restrict your own people's access to the rights we all take for granted (Clarence Thomas), you are suspect in my book. If you are just flat out a crook and a liar (Michael Steele -- bear in mind, I was born and raised in Maryland), you are suspect in my book.

comment #9

dangovich says ...

Wait...Obama's black?

comment #10

Walter Sobchak says ...

"at least he can pronounce "nuclear""....

Oh man, that funny! Good one, D.Z.! Bush's been SERVED! Ouch! That'll leave a mark! (making sizzling sounds) Oooh, burn!

Whoa..... gimme a minute.... gotta catch my breath....

Oh yeah, and all that crap about African-Americans being "denied the vote" have been proven to be just that....crap...
Florida 2000 has been gone over with a nano-scope... No cases of people being denied the vote because of their ethnicity... (that's right, no road blocks, no maps with the wrong directions, nothing).... just because it's a rumour doesn't mean it's true...

I look forward to being quoted by the douchebag D.Z.

comment #11

Walter Sobchak says ...

In an unrelated story:

Charltan Heston was spotted today running out of a Dasani plant in Syracuse, New York screaming "It's tap water!... Dasani is TAP WATER!!!"

comment #12

Rod32303 says ...

Couple things, Walter.

Get your shit straight. "Rumours" my ass. I live in Tallahassee, and in the next county over, GADSDEN county, officials and OFFICERS WERE found guilty of obstructing and misleading voters (Gadsden has a majority minority population)...in the 2004 election, things ran smoothly because of the complaints and investigations into those claims in 2000. Check The Tallahassee Democrat for details.

comment #13

Walter Sobchak says ...

...And there's a secret ingredient in Snapple that will render you infertile!

comment #14

Josh Massey says ...

Rod, I would appreciate a source. There were absolutely no factual claims of "disenfranchisement" during the 2000 election.

comment #15

SpinDozer says ...

'Couple things, Walter.

Get your shit straight.'

Ain't gonna happen. The guy's committed.

One of the many many things that must happen in the next administration is that voting rights must be protected from the abuses similar to the ones cooked up by Rove & Co.

comment #16

SpinDozer says ...

'We all know this deep down, and that the no-way-in-hell voters are not just old-school Jim Crow types with shotguns racks in their pickup trucks. But no one will ever address it, least of all the Obama campaign.'

To address it is to a)concede to the futility of your campaign, or b)talk about something which will not win votes. It's one thing for a candidate to address his personal baggage, Nixon/Checkers, Clinton/Flowers, but quite another to say (however correctly) the problem is YOU. Not an inspiring game plan.

I agree that the time is not right for an Obama victory (remember Harold Ford?), but, I think you have to compete today to have a chance for victory tomorrow.

comment #17

Rod32303 says ...

Josh, check the newspaper for the capital city in Florida, The Tallahassee Democrat (www.tdo.com). You may have to pay since the articles are over 5 years old. Search Gadsden (watch the spelling) County Florida + 2000 Presidential Election

How can you guys say there were no factual claims when those of us who LIVE HERE watched the bullshit go down in Gadsden and Perry county?

comment #18

MovieBob says ...

This isn't as surprising when you consider the kind of campaigns they're running. Obama is running the standard bright-young-thing campaign of "change, man.. we GOTTA change!!!" Hillary is running, at least by comparison (and perhaps mostly by implication) more in the realm of "if you elect me, I will do X, Y and Z" practical specifics.

Historically (and any reliable political professional will tell you this) black Democrat voters are heavily "interest oriented" and tend to lean more toward "what will you do/can you do/have you done for me" candidates who are likely to win. Idealism is for Church, politics is about brass-tacks business. Advantage: Hillary.

Likewise, upper-middle to upper class white Democrat voters (who don't really see themselves as "needing" much help from government/politicians) tend to be much more susceptible (in primary season, anyway) to starry-eyed "brand new day" routines like Obama has so-far specialized in.

You're average 28 year-old white gal with a masters can PROBABLY take care of her own medical insurance, isn't all that worried about finding a job and is "free" to vote for the "yeah, change, man..." I-feel-like-a-better-person-just-for-voting-for-him candidate. Whereas you're average (i.e. predominantly working-class by statistics) black American is more likely to be thinking "okay, but what are you going to do about services and programs that I might NEED in the near future?"

comment #19

D.Z. says ...

MovieBob: "You're average 28 year-old white gal with a masters can PROBABLY take care of her own medical insurance,"

Assuming she can find a decent job which can help pay off the cost of her Master's, and still afford housing/rent, utilities, and food, then yes...

comment #20

Walter Sobchak says ...

Couple things, Rod32303.

One, you're a very ridiculous person.

Two, exactly which Gadsden official is this you're speaking of? Shirley Green Knight, Supervisor of Elections? (she's a Democrat by the way) Gadsden county is over 80 percent registered Democrat. They voted over 70 percent for Kerry in '04. The district's election board is made up of Democrats. So, if they were mis-leading or giving purposely false intructions to voters I'll go out on a limb and assume it was in favor of Gore. Also, in a county that is this overwhelmingly in the bag for the Democrats why would those sneaky, dastardly Republicans try funny business. Wouldn't it be more likely to happen in a swing district?

In all seriousness, I do feel awfully bad for you Democrats on here. Democrats are, afterall, decent, sweet, innocent, gentle people who only want to help others. They are sadly weak, poor, delicate and are often no match for the big, evil, moustache-twirling, scotch-swilling, cigar-chumping Republican bullies that just want to tramble on regular people. I know they kick sand in your faces and make you want to cry but don't give up! Write pithy op-eds to the Huffington Post! Raise money for the DNC so someday you'll have three times as much as the RNC, (instead of just a piddling twice as much)! Make huge puppets and take them to rallies! Pretend like you never supported the Iraq War! Pretend like the only time you disagreed with Bill and Hillary was when they both said that Iraq had WMD's! (uh oh... "Auto-History Rewriting Machine" is kicking in.....) Uh, yeah.... They never said that so you agreed with them all along!

Finally, it's a sad indictment of our society that a 28 year-old white gal with a masters degree would have to, on top of all of her other expenses, PAY for her own food.
Free tax-payer-subsidized food for EVERYONE! (by "tax-payer" I mean rich people... that is, anyone making over $30 grand a year)

comment #21

D.Z. says ...

Walter: "Two, exactly which Gadsden official is this you're speaking of? Shirley Green Knight, Supervisor of Elections? (she's a Democrat by the way) Gadsden county is over 80 percent registered Democrat. They voted over 70 percent for Kerry in '04."

The 70 percent who were counted, anyway...

"Also, in a county that is this overwhelmingly in the bag for the Democrats why would those sneaky, dastardly Republicans try funny business."

Because no one would vote for them otherwise?

"They never said that so you agreed with them all along!"

They said they thought Iraq had WMDs; they didn't state it as fact; nor did they invade.

"Finally, it's a sad indictment of our society that a 28 year-old white gal with a masters degree would have to, on top of all of her other expenses, PAY for her own food."

Yes, having to choose between food and health care
is part of the American dream.

"Free tax-payer-subsidized food for EVERYONE! (by "tax-payer" I mean rich people... that is, anyone making over $30 grand a year)"

It's already subsidized through fast food chains. And people who make $30 grand or less are going to be the ones paying for fuck-ups like the war and the flood, because the top 1% didn't want to do their part for the country, unless it involved profiteering.

comment #22

MAGGA says ...

What about this dude?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PU9Lm6V1rc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gMlHv2lDqA

Also, what is the difference between en election and a Miss Universe contest?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V-Ehchdje0

comment #23

Walter Sobchak says ...

Exactly! Pay your fair share, you awful top 1%! The 29% of all taxes that you pay now aren't nearly enough!

(makes a good stump speech for the gazillionaire John Edwards)

(also, pay no attention to the fact that the top 5% earners in the country pay 50% of all taxes......that's half, Dizzy.)

Oh no! FACTS! Run away! Run away!

comment #24

D.Z. says ...

"Exactly! Pay your fair share, you awful top 1%! The 29% of all taxes that you pay now aren't nearly enough!"

If they didn't pay the little they already did, they'd probably try to look for more ways to rip off their employees.

"(also, pay no attention to the fact that the top 5% earners in the country pay 50% of all taxes......that's half, Dizzy.)"

They also own 80% of the production and capital...But it's hard out there for a monopolist...

comment #25

Larry says ...

I hate to introduce some facts into this discussion, because I know nothing makes Jeff feel better than saying other Americans aren't as good as he is. But there's been research done on this, and it's been found that only a small percentage mind if a candidate is black or a woman, and since a number of people find these factors to be positives, it's pretty much a wash.

On the other hand, there's still pretty big prejudice against certain types, such as atheists or Mormons, but I'm guessing, knowing the American people, when push comes to shove, that they will overlook it and just judge the candidates on their merits.

By the way, I'd bet if Barack Obama weren't (partly) black, he wouldn't even be a senator, and if Hillary hadn't married the right guy, she's be just another rich lawyer.

comment #26

BurmaShave says ...

"D.Z:

Walter: "Two, exactly which Gadsden official is this you're speaking of? Shirley Green Knight, Supervisor of Elections? (she's a Democrat by the way) Gadsden county is over 80 percent registered Democrat. They voted over 70 percent for Kerry in '04."

The 70 percent who were counted, anyway..."

The reasoning behind that statement is so adorably insane. It's always nice to see faulty logic charge all the way off a cliff and then sprout wings. Also, young people don't vote, and certainly not in primaries.

As for Barack Obama, for anyone losing sight of why so many want him to be our next President, kindly seek out his 2004 Keynote Speech at the Democratic Convention.

comment #27

Ogami Itto says ...

"Make huge puppets and take them to rallies!"

You had me up until you dragged the puppets into the debate. Leave the puppets outta this, man. Just leave the puppets out....

And Larry you made a great point: sometimes race and gender work to one's advantage, sometimes they don't. Certainly Hillary wouldn't be a Senator from New York if not for riding her husband's coattails into power.

comment #28

BNick says ...

You can't pay that much attention to polls saying that 90%+ of people are willing to vote for a black/female candidate for president. Many if not most of the people who harbor these prejudices will not admit it to a pollster. Still, I don't think Hillary's gender or Obama's race would prevent them from winning the general election.

I think Tucker Carlson was dead on yesterday. Obama's base is young, well-educated, and white. He needs to find a way to appeal to poor and black voters or else he has no chance to beat Hillary. The Democrats have always had an "elite" candidate...Eugene McCarthy, Gary Hart, Bill Bradley, Howard Dean...and that guy has gone down in flames in every primary to the candidate who can carry the interest groups.

comment #29

Mgmax says ...

" if Hillary hadn't married the right guy, she's be just another rich lawyer."

That's a terrible thing to say! I think given her natural talents, commitment to public service and drive, without Bill she'd be... undersecretary of Health and Human Services in the Gore Adminstration.

comment #30

D.Z. says ...

Burma: "It's always nice to see faulty logic charge all the way off a cliff and then sprout wings."

When you can't win, challenge their argumentative style.

"Also, young people don't vote, and certainly not in primaries."

They did in '04. I wonder where there votes went...

BNick: "Obama's base is young, well-educated, and white. He needs to find a way to appeal to poor and black voters or else he has no chance to beat Hillary."

Just tell them that it's because of her vote that their relatives are stuck in Iraq.

comment #31

Rod32303 says ...

I'm done with this after this post. I didn't refer to you as "ridiculous," all knowing, Walter. I didn't start name calling. I just said get your shit straight. But now...get ready...

In your "ridiculous" diatribe about the political party of the Supervisor of Elections, you didn't address the (all white) police officers who were suspended and disciplined after their conduct between 6:30 and 7:00 pm the night of voting in 2000. You obviously didn't investigate the coverage in the Tallahassee Democrat newspaper, or contact WCTV CBS, who has the footage. Like I said before, get your shit straight.There is no doubt that many cities and many places have upstanding elections and election results aren't questioned. I think the 2004 election went off without rancor or mess BECAUSE of the bullshit that went down here in Gadsden and Perry County in 2000, and all of your supposition and questions mean nothing - you don't live here, you WEREN'T here, you get your information from FoxNews, no doubt - you don't have relatives who were blocked from the precinct entrance at 6:54pm like I do, and you obviously don't understand this rural Northern Florida community, where a majority of the population is of one race, while the officials and law enforcement, democratic and republican, are of another. I don't know what happens where you live...you certainly don't know what happened here. Anyone can google search STATISTICS, ridiculous person you, but LIVING here is different.

And FYI, I feel sorry for your boyfriend. He is very unhappy and talks about you often. Not in a good way. He wants you to stop referring to him as your "consultant" and fess up. Be free and who you are. It's "ridiculous" that you don't.

Asswipe.

comment #32

BNick says ...

D.Z., Obama is doing just that. He shot back at her last week by calling her "naive and irresponsible" for voting for the war. It's a tactic he is right to employ but she has run a great campaign and made it difficult for voters to find any substantive breathing room between them going forward on the issue.

And young people did not turn out in the 2004 primaries for Dean like we all thought they would. Speaking as a young voter, we always disappoint, turnout-wise, in primaries and especially in caucuses, which are all-day affairs.

I'm not a Democrat but if I were, I'd be for Obama. Women have to ask themselves if Hillary is really the candidate they want representing them. As others have hinted on this thread, wouldn't you rather have someone who earned her way to the top? Hillary was born, politically, on third base. Let's not give her credit for hitting a triple.

comment #33

D.Z. says ...

BNick: "It's a tactic he is right to employ but she has run a great campaign"

Starring in some shitty Sopranos parody and refusing to apologize for her vote is a great campaign?

comment #34

BNick says ...

How about winning every debate, not making any stupid mistakes and winning more major individual and group endorsements than any other candidate?

As a frontrunner, accomplishing these three things all at once is way harder than it sounds.

comment #35

Rob says ...

Sweet Christ, I'm agreeing with D.Z...

comment #36

christian says ...

Diebold CEO Walden O'Dell wrote a fundraising pitch to Republicans. In the letter, O'Dell said he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president." Diebold is based in North Canton, Ohio.

http://money.cnn.com/2004/08/30/technology/election_diebold/

walter buddy, there's lotsa actual evidence to suggest vote tampering in 2000 and 2004.

and hackers just proved they could CRACK any of the electronic voting machines here in california this past week. we need to boot this flawed sysem.

and katherine harris did in fact purge voters in florida. this is uncontestable:

from salon.com Dec. 4, 2000:

If Vice President Al Gore is wondering where his Florida votes went, rather than sift through a pile of chad, he might want to look at a "scrub list" of 173,000 names targeted to be knocked off the Florida voter registry by a division of the office of Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris. A close examination suggests thousands of voters may have lost their right to vote based on a flaw-ridden list that included purported "felons" provided by a private firm with tight Republican ties.

Early in the year, the company, ChoicePoint, gave Florida officials a list with the names of 8,000 ex-felons to "scrub" from their list of voters. But it turns out none on the list were guilty of felonies, only misdemeanors. The company acknowledged the error, and blamed it on the original source of the list -- the state of Texas.

Florida is the only state that pays a private company that promises to "cleanse" voter rolls. The state signed in 1998 a $4 million contract with DBT Online, since merged into ChoicePoint, of Atlanta. The creation of the scrub list, called the central voter file, was mandated by a 1998 state voter fraud law, which followed a tumultuous year that saw Miami's mayor removed after voter fraud in the election, with dead people discovered to have cast ballots.

comment #37

Walter Sobchak says ...

"Sweet Christ, I'm agreeing with D.Z..."

It happens now and then. Like the proverbial clock that's right twice a day. I know how you feel. In fact, I agree with that wingnut's last post above. A chill breeze blows over you. A mild disorientation causes you to temporarily lose motor skills. Then, in a moment of horrific realization you say to yourself, "my God...I've just agreed with D.Z...."
Relax. This doesn't mean that you've gone insane.

Read "Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy" by John Fund. Through the years Democrats have been generally more apt to employ chicanery to rig elections than Republicans. (and before you attack the source... "right-wing hack"... keep in mind the book is not an opinion piece but rather based on data)...

Avast Ye, Mister Christian.. your source from Salon (fair and balanced?) is from Dec. 2000... a little soon for post-game analysis, eh? The New York Times (right-wing rag?) and others did extensive searches into aleged voter fraud in Florida and came up with nothing.

Also, my old girlfriend... (I stress old because apparently now I have a boyfriend)... worked on a "College Women for Bush (Sr.)" organization back in '92... she often spoke to other college girls and said...verbattum... "let's help deliver the state of Missouri to George Bush!".... so should her organization be investigated for voter tampering? ...they did promise to deliver the state afterall..

Diebold CEO O'Dell said those comments because he's a Republican.... In hindsight he should've seen the conflict of interest and not involved himself in the election but it certainly doesn't prove that he set about re-wiring his machines to only count Republican votes....

I must now go and watch Fox News where I will find non-stop programming consisting of news readers looking into the camera and repeating over and over "Bush is great...Bush is great...Vote Republican...Vote Republican...Bush is great..."

Then, Fox News' stable of conservative hacks, (Mara Liason, Juan Williams, Alan Colmes, Neil Gabler, Greta Van Sustren, Geraldo Cheeseball, etc.) will all come on one after another to tell me how awful the Democrats are.

comment #38

Walter Sobchak says ...

" ----"Sweet Christ, I'm agreeing with D.Z..."

It happens now and then. Like the proverbial clock that's right twice a day. I know how you feel. In fact, I agree with that wingnut's last post above. A chill breeze blows over you. A mild disorientation causes you to temporarily lose motor skills. Then, in a moment of horrific realization you say to yourself, "my God...I've just agreed with D.Z...."
Relax. This doesn't mean that you've gone insane.

Read "Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Our Democracy" by John Fund. Through the years Democrats have been generally more apt to employ chicanery to rig elections than Republicans. (and before you attack the source... "right-wing hack"... keep in mind the book is not an opinion piece but rather based on data)...

Avast Ye, Mister Christian.. your source from Salon (fair and balanced?) is from Dec. 2000... a little soon for post-game analysis, eh? The New York Times (right-wing rag?) and others did extensive searches into aleged voter fraud in Florida and came up with nothing.

Also, my old girlfriend... (I stress old because apparently now I have a boyfriend)... worked on a "College Women for Bush (Sr.)" organization back in '92... she often spoke to other college girls and said...verbattum... "let's help deliver the state of Missouri to George Bush!".... so should her organization be investigated for voter tampering? ...they did promise to deliver the state afterall..

Diebold CEO O'Dell said those comments because he's a Republican.... In hindsight he should've seen the conflict of interest and not involved himself in the election but it certainly doesn't prove that he set about re-wiring his machines to only count Republican votes....

I must now go and watch Fox News where I will find non-stop programming consisting of news readers looking into the camera and repeating over and over "Bush is great...Bush is great...Vote Republican...Vote Republican...Bush is great..."

Then, Fox News' stable of conservative hacks, (Mara Liason, Juan Williams, Alan Colmes, Neil Gabler, Greta Van Sustren, Geraldo Cheeseball, etc.) will all come on one after another to tell me how awful the Democrats are."

Posted by: Walter Sobchak at August 1, 2007 12:21 PM

What about CIA-sponsored death squads in Central America?

-D.Z.

comment #39

christian says ...

so walter, is it a leftie paranoid conspiracy to think that voting machines could easily be hacked?

HERE'S SOME FACTS from 2004:

An error with an electronic voting system gave President Bush 3,893 extra votes in suburban Columbus, elections officials said.

Franklin County's unofficial results had Bush receiving 4,258 votes to Democrat John Kerry's 260 votes in a precinct in Gahanna. Records show only 638 voters cast ballots in that precinct.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6418513/

and this past week:

State-sanctioned teams of computer hackers were able to break through the security of virtually every model of California's voting machines and change results or take control of some of the systems' electronic functions, according to a University of California study released Friday.

The researchers "were able to bypass physical and software security in every machine they tested,'' said Secretary of State Debra Bowen, who authorized the "top to bottom review" of every voting system certified by the state.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/07/28/VOTING.TMP&type=printable

but hey, it can't happen here, right?

comment #40

Walter Sobchak says ...

Okay.... then let's go back in time and hold the election again...
even if this stuff is true, what do you want to do about it?
I'm not still whining about Nixon getting jobbed in '60.

But seriously, are you going to the Egyptian tonight for "All My Loving" and "Cream in Concert"? Is "All My Loving" as cool as it sounds? Any info?

I (heart) Haliburton!

comment #41

christian says ...

i be there tonite for ALL MY LOVING.

and walter, you don't fool me anymore.

you're a hippie at heart.

comment #42

Rod32303 says ...

That last bit was really good, Walter. I am still laughing. You win, cause I said I was done and here I am again. Most of our stuff has nothing to do with the subject of this post...and you are right. What's done is done.

Sucks for Tricky Dick back in 60, though.

comment #43

D.Z. says ...

BNick: Forgot one.

"And young people did not turn out in the 2004 primaries for Dean like we all thought they would."

Actually, they had a record turn-out, but their parents chose to save taxes and let black people get drowned and brown people get bombed, rather than let gay people get married.

"How about winning every debate,"

How is she winning by basically agreeing with Bush?

"not making any stupid mistakes"

So voting for the war wasn't a stupid mistake?

"and winning more major individual and group endorsements than any other candidate?"

They're pretty tied in that area.

Walter: "I'm not still whining about Nixon getting jobbed in '60."

Watergate and auditing anti-war celebrities tends to overshadow Robert Kennedy's mafia connection.

comment #44

Mgmax says ...

Actually, they had a record turn-out, but their parents chose to save taxes and let black people get drowned and brown people get bombed, rather than let gay people get married.

I'm going to sew a sampler of that.

comment #45

BNick says ...

OK, D.Z.

So if Hillary is losing all the debates by agreeing with Bush, is making stupid mistakes in her campaign including voting for the war, and isn't picking up a particularly large number of endorsements, why is she 20 points ahead of Obama nationally? And why is she leading him by significant margins in 90% of the polls of early primary states? I'm not saying there's not an answer to this question, I'd just like to know what it is.

The first part of your last post deserves no response.

comment #46

D.Z. says ...

Bnick: "So if Hillary is losing all the debates by agreeing with Bush, is making stupid mistakes in her campaign including voting for the war, and isn't picking up a particularly large number of endorsements, why is she 20 points ahead of Obama nationally? And why is she leading him by significant margins in 90% of the polls of early primary states?"

I told you. It's good will, due to her husband's reputation. Most Americans don't really pay attention to debates, anyway, hence why people like Bush get elected in the first place. Obama is a lot more flexible and adaptable than Hillary,
though, which is why you should see him catching up in the near future.

"The first part of your last post deserves no response."

I figure my mafia comment would rile you more, but
I guess me pointing out boomers who chose to sell out the country for the last 25 years years pissed you off more. Are you in that demographic by any chance?

comment #47

BNick says ...

I actually agree that Obama will catch up, but I don't agree that Hillary is way ahead just because of good will. Frontrunners have to run very fragile campaigns. She hasn't stumbled in a debate yet. And you may be right that people don't watch them, but people do notice the coverge of the debates, and her performances have awarded her media-approved "victories" in each one, which helps.

Obama is starting to go out on a limb, first with the dust-up over visiting thug dictators and now with his Pakistan/Terrorism speech yesterday. Don't know if this will help him or not. He doesn't really need to start closing the gap until the fall, and he needs to be careful about peaking too early like Dean did.

And FYI I'm 26, no baby boomer here. I don't much like the baby boomer generation either, probably for different reasons than you, though. In their defense, I doubt many of them voted for Bush (or against Dean) because they wanted black people to drown.

comment #48

D.Z. says ...

"Frontrunners have to run very fragile campaigns. She hasn't stumbled in a debate yet."

She argues against diplomacy, but then for it under limited circumstances. Sounds like stumbling to me...

"I don't much like the baby boomer generation either, probably for different reasons than you, though. In their defense, I doubt many of them voted for Bush (or against Dean) because they wanted black people to drown."

I didn't say they wanted them to drown. They just would prefer looking the other way on the levee and our 70,000 decrepit bridges than pay taxes to protect our national interests. The irony is that the money they save isn't even enough to keep up with the current cost of living, and would probably do more good for our infrastructure than them; but greed is blind.

comment #49

juanma says ...

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