comment #1

Lloyd Dobler says ...

I'm pretty sure Brad Pitt had a pair of mastiffs at his old house. Its a well known guard dog

comment #2

Josh Massey says ...

I think the words "making out" and "I'm also partial to collies" were a little close together, but I'm with you.

I'm wondering why the mainstream media is so slow to label this dog-fighting thing as part of the "hip-hop culture," or whatever term you want to use to denote a part of the young black culture. Trust me, I'm in Atlanta - I'm hearing Michael Vick 24/7. And it keeps being referred to as a "southern" thing, when it goes on in every big city nationwide.

There's a black-centered talkshow on a local sports radio station I listen to from time to time. Since this Vick thing broke, an astounding amount of callers have said, basically, that they didn't know what the big deal was. "It's just dogs," has been a very common expression. And just yesterday, there was a group of people standing on the side of a busy street near my house, chanting for Vick. Clinton Portis and Deion Sanders are other NFL stars that have come out and said dog fights aren't uncommon.

I hope the term "It's a black thing" doesn't apply here, but I'm struggling to come to another conclusion since nobody will address the issue honestly.

comment #3

D.Z. says ...

Jeff: Um, all the vicious-looking dogs in my neighborhood are owned by white people. Also, outside of rabies, dogs which attack and kill people are often abused, too.

comment #4

bmcintire says ...

It seems to have definite and current ties to hip-hop culture, but dogfighting has (sadly) been around in this country much longer than that. And hip-hop culture, though rooted in black society, is no longer a "black thing." I live a a dog-friendly building in Silver Lake (Los Angeles), and agitated Rottweilers, Pit Bulls and similar breeds have grill-flashing, sign-throwing masters of every color. I used to think these macho dog breeds were the poor tiny-dicked man's Porsches, but most of the poseurs roll around in Escalades and Hummers as well.

comment #5

bmcintire says ...

Um, insert 'culture' for 'society.'

comment #6

p.Vice says ...

A point that D.Z. made needs repeating: most of these dogs would never hurt anyone were they not abused or "trained" into becoming guard dogs, fighting dogs, etc. There are exceptions to the rule but most Pit Bulls, mastiffs, and so forth that I've encountered over the years are incredibly friendly by nature. It's the quality of their care and upbrining that usually determines their disposition to other animals and strangers. That means that a nasty, violent animal speaks volumes about what kind of person the owner is.

I think that cocksucker Vick should be issued the same kind of punishment the dogs were given. People who devalue animal life don't deserve to be called human themselves. Isn't part of being human the ability to understand and appreciate the value of life and death?

comment #7

Mr B says ...

I agree with Vice, to first abuse, train, and torment these dogs into dogfighting shape, and then kill them in cold blood when they don't perform, and your excuse is: 'they're just dogs'. I'm feeling nice, I think he deserves 15 years minimum, though it will never happen.

comment #8

jeffmcm says ...

"Those dogs should be... put before a firing squad."

Wells, I'm going to steal this idea from you and put it in a script someday. Also, maybe best not to use the elided phrase in an article about black people.

comment #9

foxnewsisfake says ...

This ain't a race thing. I know PLENTY of white people with guard dogs. This is about the American male infatuation with bad-assery and his insatiable desire to absorb and project wealth and strength in the coolest way possible, be it with dogs, jewelry and clothes, trucks/cars, media(UFC/action flicks/video game shooters), whatever...

As long as we continue to fetishize and commercialize money and power, ain't nothing going to change.

comment #10

Rod32303 says ...

Unbelievable.

UnFUCKINGbeleivable.

I am a big black burly man. I have never abused an animal in my life. Neither have life long other big black burly men that I know.

How about the fact that Vick, and (maybe, since the quote from his is alleged)Rhames are just ASSHOLES who HAPPEN to be black. I guess all white starlets in their early 20's are fucked up trashy sluts and alcoholics, on the evidence of the two or three car wrecks we've been inundated with recently (though Mandy Moore, Raven Symone, Hilary Duff, Rachel Bilson, Claire Danes, Brittany Snow, and THOUSANDS of others can boast to the contrary).

What the fuck?

Two stories, and that means you can generalize "big burly black guys" as offenders? Please direct me to substantiated proof. PLEASE don't make me think you really believe this is a "black thing," because you see or hear "evidence" from FEW (when you compare that number to the number of African-Americans in this country). In the four three cities I've lived in here in Florida (Orlando, Tallahassee, Jacksonville) this mess with dogs doesn't happen. Not when I lived there. I cannot speak for Atlanta, though in Lithonia where my sister lives it doesn't - people are too busy having to go to work to fuck around this this mess. I would be careful in making statements like this is common in every major city, inferring that it happens with this racial make up, unless you've been to every major city and seen who participates in this activity.

Josh asks a really good, and, I guess, necessary question,though. As an African American, I can only tell you my opinion, as I don't speak for all blacks or anyone but myself. I think the support of people like Vick isn't supporting the despicable acts involving those poor dogs...but without REALLY knowing the facts, just what we see on the news or read (remember, a trail awaits), black folk feel that there can be a rush to judgement. This article says it better than I can articulate here.

http://www.dailyreportonline.com/Editorial/News/new_singleEdit.asp?individual_SQL=8%2F3%2F2007%4015781_Public_.htm

comment #11

Rod32303 says ...

Insert "friends" after "life long" in the third paragraph of my, uh, rant. I was hot pissed.

comment #12

Walter Sobchak says ...

But it's so Gangsta!

It is a macho bullshit thing... "my dog can kick your dog's ass...my truck can kick your truck's ass..I can kick anybody's ass"...

Go to the animal shelters around L.A., especially ones near da Hood... you'll find scores of really sweet, timid Pitbulls and Rotty's that were abandoned because they didn't snarl effectively or have a propensity to tear other dogs and/or people to shreds... "this bitch can't fight for shit..get rid of it..."

really sad

(and I believe B. Pitt had coon hounds, not what Ving has)

comment #13

Rod32303 says ...

Shit!

Erase "Raven Symone" from my example, since she obviously isn't white. I was REALLY hot pissed...

comment #14

futureman says ...

Well 2 celebrities who are black and big guys have dogs who are obviously meant to hurt people or dogs. Is everyone just supposed to ignore this? Old white guys have been dying lately and young white female celebs are like prostitutes, who cares?

comment #15

Wrecktum says ...

What makes anyone think that a 50 year old man like Ving Rhames has anything to do with gangsta, hip-hop culture? Because he's black? Shame.

comment #16

futureman says ...

Aren't you the dummy who thinks getting beat up in San Diego is ok? Shame.

comment #17

iamjoe says ...

I think that he got the dogs when his closet got full of high-thread count clothing.
WTF, Jeff??? Its not a black thing, to own a type of dog.
Its a people not understanding their animal thing.
They have instinct, and natural fight styles of attack that are ingrained in them NO matter how much someone trains them. Or even if they are a good natured they are.
Ask Sigfried and Roy, or Steve Erwin.

Stop fucking with animals, people.

(I admit I just woke up on my couch, I'm grumpy.)

comment #18

Josh Massey says ...

Rod: Thanks for the response. It was very good stuff.

However, you've got to understand where I'm coming from (especially here in Atlanta.) The Georgia NAACP and SCLC are tripping over themselves to defend Vick, Deion Sanders and Clinton Portis are letting it be known that Vick isn't exactly by himself in this, and as Walter said, there are a lot of reports of city kennels overflowing with scarred pit bulls. And yet, nobody will address the possibility - likely, given the evidence - that this is a perhaps growing trend in the inner cities.

From the article you linked to:

"White folks 'been grindin' on an ax ... and that ax ain't got sharp enough for them," said Earnest Hardy Sr., who called the case a witch hunt targeting a successful black man.

Do you really believe that?

comment #19

Mr B says ...

another interesting article on the race implications specific to Atlanta regarding Vick:
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=vicksatlanta&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos1

me personally? I am one of those damn dog lovers and want some punishment that actually punishes for whoever takes part in abusing dogs. I don't really care who it is.

comment #20

Mr B says ...

I forgot to mention, he does need to be proven guilty first.

comment #21

Wrecktum says ...

"Aren't you the dummy who thinks getting beat up in San Diego is ok?"

Aren't you the nimrod who doesn't know a joke when he reads it?

comment #22

christian says ...

jeez. i was waiting for this post.

followed by one on how historically african americans are "frightened" of dogs.

and i know plenty of wannabe tuff white boyz who love their pitbulls.

comment #23

futureman says ...

Jokes are supposed to be funny, the only thing funny about you is that your username is supposed to be funny, but instead of being funny, it isn't.

comment #24

Rod32303 says ...

Well, look at how, historically, dogs have been trained and used towards African-Americans. Plenty of news footage showing that. Again, I only speak for me, and I LOVE DOGS. We were a "dog house" growing up (mother had an aversion to cats) and our dogs loved us.

Josh, I don't believe that at all. I wonder how old Mr. Hardy is. I think, for reasons that may be justified, that older African Americans distrust the law and the court system. My Dad is 73, and as enlightened and honest as he is (and open hearted by example), he is quick to suspect. My generation and those younger - I think there's a difference.

comment #25

SpinDozer says ...

My favorite part of recent boobtube coverage on Dog-Fighting was when they showed a clip from "The Wire" Season 3 and and acted like the prominence of Dog-Fighting on the show was a SIGNIFICANT factor in it's popularity (I think there was like 5-6 minutes of screen time?).

Total horseshit about viscious dawgs being a "Black" Thing. It's in the hispanic and white communities as well, if I was gonna make a gross generalization, I'd say the extremes are more popular in drug culture, Meth especially. Don't know about big & burly, most big and burly guys don't need a slavering canine to scare the pis outta folks.

comment #26

Josh Massey says ...

The scene in "The Wire" didn't inspire real-life dog fighting, it was inspired by real-life dog fighting.

comment #27

Wrecktum says ...

"Jokes are supposed to be funny, the only thing funny about you is that your username is supposed to be funny, but instead of being funny, it isn't."

Says you.

comment #28

hatchetface says ...

Though owning dangerous pets is unwise in almost every way imaginable, Ving owning those guard-dogs is different than him owning the animals to fight to the death for sport. People own cars and motorcycles with big engines, which make them go very fast, and by definition that increased capacity increases the danger both to the driver and everyone who shares the road. Big guns are similar - owning one doesn't necessarily mean you go around shooting hobos for fun. Owning big guard dogs reminds me more of that sort of conspicuous consumption than anything significantly more sinister. Guys liking big, dangerous things is nothing new. (And besides: wasn't the guy who was killed supposed to be the animals trainer? Exactly what happened during that days lesson?)

I don't doubt that there's racial tension in Vick's city; that fucking sucks and the shit needs to end. But for me the dog-fighting story isn't about race - it's purely about the grotesquely psychotic sense of entitlement a person must have to treat an animal's life as cheap entertainment. There might well be a million dog-fight enthusiasts for all I know, and I bet they'd be of every race and creed you could possibly imagine - and they'd all be totally fucked in the head if that's their idea of a good time.

comment #29

Ray says ...

Black guys have those big dogs to make up for what they lack downstairs.

comment #30

tholl-yung says ...

Dogs don't make out, they can't even put their lips together to say "ma-ma."

comment #31

malibugigolo says ...

Josh:

Where do you live in Atlanta? Funwoody? The Highlands?
I doubt you hang out in the "urban" part of Atlanta.
They guy from Outkast runs a pitbull farm.
Pitbulls are only bred for fighting and morons take them as pets and bad things happen.
Its not so much a "black thing" as a class thing, dogs are the lower classes (black and white) horse races. White people, if you go to redneck parts of Alabama train some dogs to hunt just let them go attack a pig in a ring as I learned from a most talkative man for some reason after day 5 of tailgating for the Auburn/ Alabama football game. He wanted to "shew me somin' time" (or words along those lines)

But, alas, my schedule was booked.
You guys need to get out more.
But warned you will see people with low thread counts. I know, the horror!
Don't say I didn't warn you.

comment #32

T. Holly says ...

Having a dog is like being married to a toddler.

comment #33

MovieBob says ...

Geez, man...

Mastiffs are guard dogs. Rhames owns a nice house, probably containing a lot of expensive things, a tough animal like this is NOT an uncommon or even socially-unnacceptable part of many such people's home security aparatus. There's an argument to be made, sure, about whether or not it's a GOOD IDEA to own them, but there's a HUGE gulf between this and Michael Vick. Especially since we still have no idea of the circumstances: It's possible that the victim here, through no meaning of his own, did something to rouse the ire of the dogs and they responded. When "on guard," guard dogs are a security tool first and like all security tools they require precise handling, awareness and respect.

comment #34

SpinDozer says ...

'The scene in "The Wire" didn't inspire real-life dog fighting, it was inspired by real-life dog fighting.'

You're like, on another plane, dude.

It's starting to creep me out.

comment #35

T. Holly says ...

Guarding stuff - that's no way for a dog to live. I can't bear this dog fighting story anymore than I could watch AMORES PERROS. I tried just turning off the sound, but that didn't work, I had to turn it off and send it back.

comment #36

futureman says ...

Hey moviebob, the guy who died was the guy who watched the dogs the last few years. The guard dogs did a good job guarding against their provider. At least you didn't know any of the facts and sounded like an idiot, good job.

comment #37

MickTravis says ...

Used to have this little dog, name Tuffy. We used to get down on the floor and tussle. She tussle real good. And then I'd give Tuffy what every good dog wants. You know what that is?

comment #38

Walter Sobchak says ...

Why don't you go get some shrimp or somethin'.

comment #39

MickTravis says ...

No, not shrimp. A bone.

comment #40

Dzayson says ...

I guess I should just sign up for PETA because not only do I think assholes like Vick should get raped and beaten in prison for their cruelty to animals, I think those that say, "so what, it's just dogs" should get blasted in the nuts too. For fucks sake, how heartless do you have to be to deliberately abuse a defenseless creature? Animal cruelty is intolorable and should warrant much more serious criminal sentencing. If Vick thinks it's cool to torture these animals, let's see how he likes things on the other side of the fence when he's getting asspounded in the showers by his new inmate friends.

comment #41

Wrecktum says ...

MickTravis, you're out of sight, man.

comment #42

Dzayson says ...

Oh, and as to the race issue- who the fuck cares about the skin color of these douchebags, let's just make a much greater effort to stopping them. Let's string them up to send a message to other assholes who are also interested in this bullshit. If racial profiling or other nefarious means are used to put these bastards behind bars, so be it.

comment #43

BurmaShave says ...

First of all, mastiffs aren't generally fighting dogs. They're military and guard animals. Their enormous size would make them extremely advantaged in a dogfight, and therefore make them hard to compete. Sometimes your ignorance really pisses me off.

"Those dogs should be strung up or put before a firing squad."

That's exactly what Vick and his assosciates did to about 40 animals. There would be plenty of smart ways to approach this situation and address. You, as usual, have used none of them.

comment #44

BurmaShave says ...

The real issue is the lack of domestication. When you have a dog like a mastiff, which by the way were originally bred to KILL LIONS, and keep it in a cage for long periods of time and taunt it, that bond never really seals. Especially for an actor such as Rhames who is gone for long periods of time, these dogs were mostly raised by staff. If I had to guess, this caretaker really didn't know what he was doing, or what kind of animals he was dealing with. I'm of course not saying he was asking for it. I hope it stands as a lesson to all vanity and novelty animal owners. It is however a completely different situation from Vick.

comment #45

Arizona Joe says ...

Wells, I admire your courage for bringing up this topic.

It has to do with machismo, acting out of base instincts and less higher thoughts, and the exhibition of a crude type of power. Owning dogs such as these is the public display of the "Cock Archetype" of manhood.

And in the age of sophisticated electronics, guard dogs are anachronistic.

I don't think it is limited to muscular black guys, or hip hop people. After all, it was a white couple who owned the mastiff in San Francisco that killed that young athletic woman outside of her apartment. However, there is something in the Hip Hop culture, and the young NFL culture, and the Ving Rhames of "Pulp Fiction" attitude that predisposes men to activities with a potential for danger and violence.

The Cock Archetype engages in risky activities like helmetless motorcycling and stunts involving bulls. You could add other imprudent behavior, like owning mastiffs. Gangstas, in the main, don't study electrical engineering, play the violin, or read philosophy, so for an identity they manifest behavior that is less than rational, i.e, the keeping of a vicious dog that has no practical purpose other than to tell the world what a warrior, tough guy, and votary of full-blooded manhood you are.

comment #46

bagelfilm says ...

Tiny white people love to have big black bodyguards.

comment #47

SeanSheer says ...

what? what? what?

you actually wrote this?

"What is with big muscular black guys and their affection for angry snarly dogs that bite, gouge and kill each other in illegal dogfight rings, and sometimes kill the occasional human?"

man... that's just bad! what is it about middle aged clueless white men?

comment #48

JaySmack says ...

"What is with big muscular black guys and their affection for angry snarly dogs that bite, gouge and kill each other in illegal dogfight rings, and sometimes kill the occasional human?"

What is with skinny, ignorant white guys who love to shove both feet in their mouths? I liev in Louisiana and cock fighting's still legal here, wanna guess the racial persuasion of the folks who engage in that activity? Dog fighting was legal until recently as well. Want to guess who kept that "tradition" going?

I never credited you with an overabundance of brains Jeff, but at least you didn't play the race card to get your jollies -until now. Say, are you and Don Imus part of the same country club? Change your name to Jackass Wells if you're going to continue gracing us with enlightened posts like this.

comment #49

Ogami Itto says ...

Wells reminds me of my 83-year-old grandfather who still uses the word "colored" to refer to African Americans. At least gramps doesn't make an ass out of himself in public, though.

comment #50

Josh Massey says ...

So Spin, I'm to understand you think "The Wire" is a show not inspired by reality, and the writers just dreamed up the entire setting out of thin air? You're right, Baltimore consists entirely of rainbows, waterfalls and kittens.

What I was saying, which you obviously couldn't comprehend, was that the makers of "The Wire" had heard of dogfights in the inner city, and decided to include it in the show. If you need me to spell it out in smaller words, let me know.

comment #51

nola says ...

This is not a black thing. It's a class thing. Just because Vick and rappers have a lot of money doesn't mean they are classy (just like Paris, Britney etc).

I am a black woman and if these charges are true he does need to go to jail. I don't see it as "oh who cares, they are just dogs?' situation. Newsflash...not all black people think alike. I don't own a dog, not into dogs but dog fighting is vicious and wrong.

Not sure what is going on in our culture these days. I don't know how anyone with a shred of empathy could sit there and watch these kind of fights. Also the "training" they put these dogs through is horrible. A rape stand? Really?

comment #52

Chicago48 says ...

Ving's dogs did not "kill" the housekeeper...they scared the housekeeper who in turn had a heart attack.
Since I'm in the black African-American race, I am appalled at how deep into violence and illegal activity our people have gone. I'm a 1960s baby and remember the marches, the fights for freedom, passing legislation just to get in the front door...and now 30-40 years later to see our younger generation do such violence to each other and have no regard whatsoever for life (animal or man)....this is very disheartening...we should be carrying the torch and setting examples, but instead it's like we're going deeper backwards in time to the stone age way of living and thinking.

What I don't understand is that if Vick is guilty, why? He had the world in his hands, money, anything he wanted. Why would he stoop that low? (See Emmett Smith as the opposite example of Vick) What's $100,000 to a man making $4Mil a year? I pray he paid off his mama's mortgage and has some money tucked away in the Bahamas, because this does not look good.

Yes, it's a new hip-hop culture and the idea of getting rich, getting paid at any cost. I just read that the video "ho" Karrin what's her name is writing a second book about her escapades with all the rappers and actors....and I wonder, why? Is money that important? Is she that desperate? But there you have it. It's a different culture of black people I'm witnessing and I don't like it one bit.

Black leaders (incl the NAACP) need to stop condoning and supporting the Vicks and Tanks. Enough already.

comment #53

DavidF says ...

What is it with blonde women of European descent and their affection for fluffly lap dogs? Wouldn't the world be a safer place if we were all a little bit more like Zsa Zsa Gabor and a little bit less like Big Black Ving Rhames? Of course!

At the risk of breaking up the party - aren't we waiting on an autopsy here? Weren't the police saying the victim might have died BEFORE getting mauled by the dogs?

(Vick is a different story - that dude is over. As it should be.)

comment #54

nola says ...

Chicago48 I'm a little younger but understand what you are saying completely. What the hell is going on? We are going backwards.

comment #55

christian says ...

the NAACP often undercuts its integrity when they flag "don't judge" at obvious abusers. vick's friend was offered a deal to testify against him. so we'll see what happens.

but really, this isn't about race but class.

no class.

comment #56

SpinDozer says ...

'What I was saying, which you obviously couldn't comprehend...'

Good 'un Josh, U won smart cat. Next time I'll start off my post with 'No Shit Sherlock' or Duh!!! and then maybe the Zen master of comprehension will catch on?

That's what I thought.

Yes, the Wire is based on real events and cop's recollections. What this has to do with the media's insinuation that it was the glamorous depiction of Dog-Fighting on The Wire leading to the popularity of the sport, I'll leave to a brainiac like you to explain.

comment #57

Arizona Joe says ...

Chicago48 said it all. It's a different culture of young black people, but white people dare not say it.

FYI: Michael Vick will never play in the NFL again, and will be lucky to be hired by a Canadian team.

comment #58

Josh Massey says ...

You win, Spin. I definitely cannot comprehend what you just wrote.

(Although if you are insinuating the dogfighting on "The Wire" was depicted in a glamorous light, you definitely didn't see the show. Again, though, I can't be sure this is your point.)

comment #59

SpinDozer says ...

'I definitely cannot comprehend what you just wrote.'

It's too hard, I know. Better have a lie down.

comment #60

NYCBusybody says ...

As usual, political correctness blinders keep everyone on these boards from getting even close to the real issue here.

The issue is class, yes. It's all about class. Lower-classes tend...TEND...to engage in more "aggressive" hobbies, shall we say, be it dogfighting, cockfighting in Latin America, hunting, etc. This has very little, if anything, to do with race. Yes, dogfighting SPECIFICALLY may be more of a "black/hiphop" cultural thing (just like hunting is overwhelmingly white), but I think the trend towards aggressive pasttimes that offend PETA is more about class.

Race DOES, however, enter into this, but in a backdoor manner. It is not of little importance that it's been black athletes and cultural figures themselves who have been the ones to first step up to casually defend Vick. The idea being, of course, that THEY feel like this is just another example of poor black men getting picked on by "the man" (PETA adherents don't usually think of themselves as "the man", but I'm sure black athletes in Atlanta do).

Political correctness, especially in the nineties, had such an overwhelming and corrosive nature that you can see it's literally kneejerk for young black men to complain that hiphop culture is "misunderstood" or "targeted" or "just reflecting reality" or "what's the big deal?". I think what's happening here is that PC isn't quite as strong as it used to be, and more people are willing to call bullshit (especially because PETA, the worlds most antagonistic people, don't give a shit what race you are), and that's kind of throwing the hip-hop faction of young black men for a loop. Even media enablers aren't backing them on this one.

comment #61

kimi98 says ...

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