comment #1

StewartforPresident says ...

The USA has produced more Nobel Prize winners than any other country in the world, thats a good thing right?

comment #2

Sean says ...

Mr. Smith Goes to Washington is my big patriotic-swelling movie -- I want to believe that tiny glimmer of light in it.

comment #3

MAGGA says ...

All The President`s Men does it for me, although I am not from America. I think the work by the press in that situation should be a moment of national pride, a point in time in which the watchdog barked and was listened to to such an extent. Sometimes bringing down the head of state is patriotic

comment #4

gruver1 says ...

Wells to MAGGA: That's a good point. ATPM is a kind of patriotic film.

comment #5

Rich S. says ...

Oh, for Pete's sake. We suffer through a terrible administration that leads us into an unpopular war, and suddenly, with two major and a couple minor exceptions, everything this entire country has done throughout its entire 200+ year history is crap. Please, enough with the self-loathing hyperbole.

comment #6

George Prager says ...

We invented Pop-Tarts and Circus Peanuts! Really, Jeff, this "hate letter to America" (Kael's phrase) must end.

comment #7

erniesouchak says ...

The space program is an inexcusable waste of taxpayer dollars. All we have to show for it are Velcro and Tang.

comment #8

Brian says ...

The USA has produced more Nobel Prize winners than any other country in the world, thats a good thing right?

Yeah, but then we ignore them whenever they say things like "invading Iraq would be bad" or "global warming is real".

comment #9

storymark says ...

Why is simply acknowledgeing the unpopular state of our nation on the world stage self-loathing.

comment #10

jeffmcm says ...

If we've produced so many Nobel Prize winners, why is every doctor I see from India?

comment #11

christian says ...

assuming you buy the theory that we actually landed on the moon -- hey, bro, put down the tase!

comment #12

RMBurnett says ...

The various space programs of the world have provided more trickle-down technology than almost any other scientific endeavor. Just wait until the space race between India and China kicks in to high gear. We Americans will be left scratching our collective heads not only wondering how they got back to the moon before us, but also why we're still in Iraq.

Or Iran.

comment #13

Dave says ...

"but what has this country done besides spearheading the defeat of Nazi Germany and exporting awesome cultural stuff (rock music, hamburgers, iPods, good movies) that's been seen as 100% beneficial to mankind besides the space program? Think about it."

Hmmm.

Defeated the Soviet Union, a regime responsible for even more innocent deaths than Nazi Germany.

Cured polio.

Rebuilt Western Europe and Japan.

Protected South Korea, Taiwan and Israel from totalitarian conquest.

Ushered in the information age that produces untold wealth and health for billions worldwide.

Breadbasket to the world.

Beacon of liberty to tens of millions of immigrants who leave their countries to being a new life in ours.

Hmmm. . . really, Jeff, I'm thinking about it, but I'm at a TOTAL LOSS what's so great about our country.

Just curious-- given that you question your own patriotism, is it wrong if I question it, too?

Not that there's anything wrong with being unpatriotic. Please just don't call those of us who unabashedly love our country for more than Elvis and Apollo rubes.

comment #14

George Prager says ...

Congratulations on your compliment. My name is Jack Warden and I'm an actress.

comment #15

christian says ...

don't forget teflon and moon sticks.

what, you forgot about moon sticks?

comment #16

nemo says ...

The space program, the 60s. Back when we elected smart Presidents because we had smart people running in both parties.

"All The President`s Men ... a moment of national pride, a point in time in which the watchdog barked and was listened to to such an extent. Sometimes bringing down the head of state is patriotic"

Yeah, those were the old days.

comment #17

George Prager says ...

Space Food Sticks, christian.

comment #18

giantman says ...

Thanks Dave, for a minute there I thought I was the only one who remembered the good things. We certainly aren't perfect, who is?, but America has a lot to be proud of and at least we try, to the tune of BILLIONS in foriegn aid every year, food for those who can't afford it, medicine, doctors, you name a problem and America is there to help.

Again, I am not pro-american, we suck alot, and right now we certainly suck more than usual, but let's keep things in perspective. I ain't real concerned about what people think about us. Or me for that matter.

comment #19

Craig Kennedy says ...

If you want to be a cynical douche about it, you could look at the space race as merely an extention of another war we fought: the cold one. Our hard-on for the moon had as much to do with wanting to show up the enemy as it did some noble sense of exploration.

I don't want to be a cynical douche about it. I love the space program, but I wouldn't be so quick to judge the here and now with an over romanticized view of the past.

comment #20

George Prager says ...

Space Food Sticks commercial

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPZ8HHRR1A0

comment #21

christian says ...

i fucking loved those sticks.

apparently me and the astronauts were the only ones.

check 'em out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KPZ8HHRR1A0

comment #22

Rich S. says ...

In the completely artificial food universe, Chicken McNuggets and Sunny DeLite got nothing on Space Food Sticks and Tang. I think I might still have one of the rubber-band powered Moon Rovers that came with specially-marked packages of Tang. Or Grape Tang.

comment #23

christian says ...

don't forget major matt mason -- one of the great american toys. in the era americans still made toys.

comment #24

jeffmcm says ...

This shouldn't be another stupid all or nothing argument. Just because our country happens to have done hideous, shameful things doesn't mean that we need to overlook the good, and vice versa.

comment #25

George Prager says ...

I agree. And so does Joey Heatherton:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=O5lZoz0ouoA

comment #26

dangovich says ...

Some time ago, George W was talking about going to Mars.

Granting him that wish would go down as another great American achievement.

comment #27

Walter Sobchak says ...

Log in again, TypeKey? Has it really been over two weeks since I last posted something? (arrrrggggggg)

I'm tired of people saying that I'm somehow anti-American because I feel that the U.S. is a horrible and wicked country that has never done anything that wasn't dipped in evil and because I always root for other countries to bring us down.

Wanting America to fail at everything is Super-Patriotic!

Hated and despised in all the world? Okay, if Western Europe and the Middle East are "all the world".

Major Matt Mason was the coolest toy EVER.

Personally I think it kind of sucks that someday far into the future we'll be sitting around with our grandchildren on our knees and they'll be saying, "hey grandpa, tell me again about the days when men travelled to the moon and people flew to Europe in supersonic airplanes."

comment #28

bostonlackey says ...

Wells, that tears it. I've been following your work for years and respect it, even if I haven't always agreed with it. But over the last year, it's been apparent to everyone reading this site that you have become a virulent misanthrope. I don't know if it's old age or what but as someone who is a 1st generation American of immigrants who found hope and safety in the U.S. post-WWII, I cannot continue to indulge your hate-filled venom. These are tough times. Bush is a disgrace and should be brought up on war crimes in my opinion. Allowing that to blind you to the virtue of the U.S. and its people is weak-willed and utterly blind. And your disdain for your country at the very time when she needs you the most is the very definition of cowardice. Maybe if you heard the stories I heard growing up, your viewpoint would change. Your very existence, your freedom to hold forth on this website and lob aspersions on anyone you see fit should be enough to convince you we enjoy more freedoms than most of the countries in this world. If that's not enough to justify any appreciation for your homeland over the last 40+ years, then you are truly an ungrateful bastard. Far too much of my family's blood has been spilled for their adopted homeland to suffer your bitterness anymore. It doesn't mean squat in the grand scheme or to you or any of your fair readers, but I will never be reading your words again. Peace to all.

comment #29

christian says ...

and when toys were once actually made by americans -- the best designed toys in the world in the 1960's.

comment #30

George Prager says ...

And the Frito Bandito:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=KSVkOl-5dZw

comment #31

Walter Sobchak says ...

Okay Prager... I have no idea what that link has to do with this thread.......... but thank you.... thank you....

Good God.... like anyone could get any "sleep" on a Serta mattress with Joey Heatherton within five miles... that was better than porn... hell that WAS porn...

comment #32

christian says ...

"And your disdain for your country at the very time when she needs you the most is the very definition of cowardice."

all the more reason for you not to leave the site.
we are large, we contain multitudes.

comment #33

christian says ...

joey heatherton wants to bear your children!

comment #34

George Prager says ...

And The Beau Brummels

http://youtube.com/watch?v=SEghk7dDkaE

comment #35

christian says ...

my favorite beau brummels song is in VILLAGE OF THE GIANTS. but we digress.

comment #36

Walter Sobchak says ...

Prager.... your YouTube links have given you a one month free pass from hearing me ridicule any of your posts....

Why not just post your all-time top ten?

In the meantime, check this out.... (one reason not to totally hate the French)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_tnTlMpDfw

comment #37

Pelham123 says ...

Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Attendee: Brought peace?
Reg: Oh, peace - shut up!
Reg: There is not one of us who would not gladly suffer death to rid this country of the Romans once and for all.
Dissenter: Uh, well, one.
Reg: Oh, yeah, yeah, there's one. But otherwise, we're solid.

-- "Life of Brian" (1979)

comment #38

Matthew Dessem says ...

A lot of the more spectacular footage in the trailer appears to be the same stuff used in For All Mankind; you can see some stills from it (including some from footage that's in the In the Shadow of the Moon trailer) in an essay I wrote about the film here.

comment #39

D.Z. says ...

Rich:

"We suffer through a terrible administration that leads us into an unpopular war, and suddenly, with two major and a couple minor exceptions, everything this entire country has done throughout its entire 200+ year history is crap."

Well the problem is that the people in charge are setting back everything we've done by 200 years.

Dave: "Defeated the Soviet Union,"

We didn't really defeat them, since communism still exists in the form of China, S. Korea, and Vietnam. We just provoked them into wasting their resources on Afghanistan while backing Osama.

"a regime responsible for even more innocent deaths than Nazi Germany."

That must mean you think the Nazis were a-ok. Well, you do support the policies of the grandson of a nazi, so who knows?

"Cured polio."

But it's canceled out by us having manufactured AIDS and given the Vietnamese and Iraqis cancer.

"Rebuilt Western Europe"

And now their currency is worth more than our currency.

"and Japan."

After fire-bombing them, of course.

"Protected South Korea, Taiwan and Israel from totalitarian conquest."

South Korea would rather make friends with Kim Jong Il than us. We're willing to let Taiwan get conquered if we can get cheap lead-contaminated products from China. And Israel wouldn't be in as much trouble, if we hadn't put dictators in Iraq and Iran.

"Ushered in the information age that produces untold wealth and health for billions worldwide."

Now we're lagging behind the rest of the world in speed.

"Breadbasket to the world."

Now we want to force GMOs and tariffs on the rest of the world.

"Beacon of liberty to tens of millions of immigrants who leave their countries to being a new life in ours."

Assuming we don't try to build a fence to try to keep them from coming here or don't detain them illegally.

boston: "And your disdain for your country at the very time when she needs you the most is the very definition of cowardice."

Hey, we tried, but the psychos are in charge. If Bush wants to nuke Iran, what's to stop him?

comment #40

jeffmcm says ...

Thanks for being predictably awful, DZ.

comment #41

Ian Sinclair says ...

Let's not be entirely negative. I think one of the more positive things America has done in recent years is to grow much more obese as a population, causing airline seats to be widenened: thus affording snake-hipped foreigners like myself a much more comfortable flight.

comment #42

jeffmcm says ...

Ibid, Ian.

comment #43

anti-sardine says ...

Ian
I think you meant to say snake-lipped

comment #44

Larry says ...

You're a pretty sick puppy, Wells. Most of the things America has done since WWII have been good for the world. The people on this planet are richer, freer and healthier than ever, and we played a large part in it (though I wouldn't deny there was plenty of help from fellow nations). You don't have to agree with every move America makes to see this, you just need to have perspective that can see how it all fits together.

I shudder to think the state we'd all be in if any other country had had our power over the last 60 years. Obviously if the Soviets, or any group in the Middle East were in charge, things'd be so bad it's not even worth talking about, but even if any European nation had been in charge it wouldn't be pretty (not that any European nation in charge could remain the same as they are now, safely protected from their folly by the America umbrella).

If being the most powerful nation means taking all the resentment from those whom we protect (including you, Wells), or the hatred of those we oppose, so be it. If all we wanted was to be popular, then the world would be in a real mess.

comment #45

D.Z. says ...

Larry: So the Vietnamese women with babies deformed from Agent Orange are better off than before? What about the families of the people who died under Pinochet's C.I.A.-backed coup, or even the families of people in El Salvador and Colombia who died from our death squads? Yes, those Kurds must be ecstatic that their population was nearly wiped out, because of chemical weapons we gave to Saddam.

comment #46

Walter Sobchak says ...

(an attempt to make D.Z.'s head explode)

D.Z. Name something great that the U.S. has done in the past fifty years..... just one thing.....

and answer this... do you like this country?

no, I won't call you unpatriotic or have you shipped off or say "love it or leave it"... you are entitled to your opinion....

just answer the simple question.... do you like America?

(I've got Cheney on the line with storm troopers ready to roll)

comment #47

Larry says ...

The amazing thing about DZ is even if he got his facts right, which he never does, his conclusions would still be wrong.

comment #48

York "Budd" Durden says ...

You guys are mixing up D.Z.'s film opinions (usually wrong) with his political posts, which are almost uniformly spot-on.

Flag-sucking halfwits (thank you, Dr. Thompson) and overfed apologists for our atrocities populate the right wing of this country, and have made us less safe, less healthy, and less free in their nationalistic fervor to maximize profit at the expense of reason and morality.

comment #49

Rich S. says ...

Thanks, Walter. That's a question that's been percolating in my head since I first read this post. Like you, I'm not a John Bircher. I believe that everyone is entitled to an opinion and is entitled to express that opinion. I would prefer that they act on their opinions to the betterment of all, but that's not a requirement. But dissent is not, and never will be, unpatriotic.

That said, if this country is such a tragic, virulent, disgusting shithole, why do they stay? Seriously. I'm not asking them to leave, but if I felt the same way about the U.S. that some of these people do, I sure as hell wouldn't live here. I wouldn't want to be associated with the term "American." I really don't understand, if there were any alternative, why someone would subject themselves to living here if they hate it as much as they claim to.

comment #50

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

I have avoided this thread, as representing yet another opportunity to debate the topic "America: Genocidal Satan or Rampaging Corporate Mongol Horde," but what you said, Rich S., what you said. In my experience, hatred of America tends to go hand in hand with minimal experience of other countries and minimal knowledge of same-- I remember debating the evils of capitalism in China with someone (an Ivy Leaguer, no less) who had never heard of the famine caused by the Great Leap Forward, for instance.

But sheesh, this whole thing started with a question that seems unaware that such things as the US Constitution, system of government, and simply our track record of continuous participatory democracy and civil liberties have all "been seen as 100% beneficial to mankind."

comment #51

Howlingman says ...

As a Canadian, I'll admit we're not always crazy about everything you guys have done over the years, but ask and you'll be hard pressed to find a country we'd rather have beside us. Too many people mistake "America" for "the people running it" and tar the entire nation with that brush while ignoring the ineffectual twats running their own country. Longest undefended border in the world notwithstanding, I can honestly say I've never met an American who wasn't the friendliest, most polite, most helpful person --which is more than I can say for a lot of my countrymen.

comment #52

George Prager says ...

Francoise Hardy is one of my favorites. Thanks, Sobchak.

Here's THE CAKE:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=FKEv1CJWJyg

comment #53

bents75 says ...

"I shudder to think the state we'd all be in if any other country had had our power over the last 60 years. Obviously if the Soviets, or any group in the Middle East were in charge, things'd be so bad it's not even worth talking about, but even if any European nation had been in charge it wouldn't be pretty (not that any European nation in charge could remain the same as they are now, safely protected from their folly by the America umbrella)."

Larry, you sir, are exactly the problem with our nation's psyche. We're as pompous and arogant as it gets and that's only fueled by King Bush. Who's to say even with our power that we are supposed to be "in charge"?

And lets humor your self-riteous assumption for a moment and imagine that a European nation were "in charge", instead, I hate to break it to you but there's several countries over there which have been around in one form or another for the better part of a thousand years. A hell of a lot longer than we're destined to last given our current path. I think they may have figured out how to do a few things on their own before America showed up.

comment #54

D.Z. says ...

Walter: "D.Z. Name something great that the U.S. has done in the past fifty years..... just one thing....."

Brokering peace between Egypt and Israel.

Rich: "That said, if this country is such a tragic, virulent, disgusting shithole, why do they stay?"

For Mexicans, I'm guessing because it's next door?
Everyone else has probably been robbed by the multi-national corporations, and can't afford to move elsewhere.

Mgmax: "I remember debating the evils of capitalism in China with someone (an Ivy Leaguer, no less) who had never heard of the famine caused by the Great Leap Forward, for instance."

If they're so bad, why are we doing business with them at the expense of our own safety? Doesn't that make us worse that we'd put business before morals?

Howlingman: "As a Canadian, I'll admit we're not always crazy about everything you guys have done over the years, but ask and you'll be hard pressed to find a country we'd rather have beside us."

How about Quebec?

"Longest undefended border in the world notwithstanding, I can honestly say I've never met an American who wasn't the friendliest, most polite, most helpful person --which is more than I can say for a lot of my countrymen."

I think it's generally about the same, based on my experience, but you guys won't leave dying vets in the gutter.

comment #55

Dave says ...

Ha ha ha, D.Z. wants attention from me of all people. I was commenting on what *Jeff* wrote, but what the hell.

"Dave: "Defeated the Soviet Union,"

We didn't really defeat them, since communism still exists in the form of China, S. Korea, and Vietnam."

In the English language, the words "Soviet Union" mean "Soviet Union," not "communism." Which is why I chose "Soviet Union," not "communism." Because I was using English.

FYI, the South Koreans would like to ask you to revise your opinion on the presence of communism in their country. They believe you might be off by a few latitudinal lines.

"We just provoked them into wasting their resources on Afghanistan while backing Osama."

We got the Soviets to waste their resources-- of which there were so few, because Soviet communism didn't lend itself to generating wealth-- all over the world, from the Fulda Gap to Catholic Poland to Central America to the Middle East to Asia. Afghanistan was an important but minor backwater in a larger struggle that literally spanned the globe. And to overstate the relevance of Osama Bin Laden to the larger effort to arm thousands of mujahadein both native to Afghanistan as well as foreign fighters is to be willfully ignorant of history and perspective.

"a regime responsible for even more innocent deaths than Nazi Germany."

That must mean you think the Nazis were a-ok. Well, you do support the policies of the grandson of a nazi, so who knows?"

Or it must mean that I simply know how to count, and that as long as we're talking about how great and good it was to defeat Nazi Germany, you might as well remark at how great and good it was to bring down Soviet totalitarianism as well.

""Cured polio."

But it's canceled out by us having manufactured AIDS and given the Vietnamese and Iraqis cancer."

Riiight. How does that CIA-supplied crack taste?

""Rebuilt Western Europe"

And now their currency is worth more than our currency."

So what? Are you jealous? Would America look better in your eyes had we "helped" Western Europe into poverty?

""and Japan."

After fire-bombing them, of course. ""

They started it. Not all wars are started by the Joooos, D.Z.

""Protected South Korea, Taiwan and Israel from totalitarian conquest."

South Korea would rather make friends with Kim Jong Il than us. We're willing to let Taiwan get conquered if we can get cheap lead-contaminated products from China. And Israel wouldn't be in as much trouble, if we hadn't put dictators in Iraq and Iran.""

That's why South Korea has abandoned the DMZ to let the North Koreans come in and be friends. That's why we've stopped sending carrier groups to patrol the Strait of Taiwan and stopped banning lead-contaminated products from China.

We did not install Saddam Hussein in Iraq. We did not install the Islamic Regime in Iran.

But if we take you at your word, D.Z., if we were responsible for creating the problem, wouldn't that mean we are responsible for doing something about it?

Or must we always be wrong?

Really, just once, just once: I want to read the D.Z. monograph on a just and moral foreign policy. I don't want to read what we SHOULDN'T do, I don't want to read about which political leader you think is evil and a liar and worse than Hitler. Nah, I just want to read a positive message from you, and understand what you think the world should look like.

Anyway. . . I apologize to the rest of Jeff's readers for feeding the troll. I guess I'm just feeling charitable today.

comment #56

christian says ...

"In my experience, hatred of America tends to go hand in hand with minimal experience of other countries and minimal knowledge of same--"

sure, because the right wing of this country is so proud of their global knowledge -- like our president who couldn't be bothered to visit another country until his 40's. or the endless france bashing. etc. and the biggest fools i've met in europe tend to be touring yanks screaming for ketchup in a bistro.

actually, when i visit other countries i'm struck how shop owners will close down for an hour to sit outside with customers or friends, drink a glass of wine and not worry that EVERY SECOND of their life isn't dictated by work or money. imagine that here.

america is a beautiful incredible experiment. but that doesn't mean slavish devotion to its more screwed experiments. and it makes you a better american to acknowledge this in order to evolve the nation.

comment #57

D.Z. says ...

Dave: "In the English language, the words "Soviet Union" mean "Soviet Union," not "communism."'

As long as communism still exists, they're still technically not defeated.

"FYI, the South Koreans would like to ask you to revise your opinion on the presence of communism in their country. They believe you might be off by a few latitudinal lines."

It has nothing to do with them wanting communism. They just don't like us anymore.

"We got the Soviets to waste their resources-- of which there were so few, because Soviet communism didn't lend itself to generating wealth-- all over the world, from the Fulda Gap to Catholic Poland to Central America to the Middle East to Asia. Afghanistan was an important but minor backwater in a larger struggle that literally spanned the globe."

Afghanistan's the straw that broke the camel's back, though.

"And to overstate the relevance of Osama Bin Laden to the larger effort to arm thousands of mujahadein both native to Afghanistan as well as foreign fighters is to be willfully ignorant of history and perspective."

Yeah, I know, they're not terrorists when they're freedom fighters. There's a difference.

"Or it must mean that I simply know how to count,"

If you did, then you'd realize that the Nazis were responsible for deaths spanning four continents.

"and that as long as we're talking about how great and good it was to defeat Nazi Germany, you might as well remark at how great and good it was to bring down Soviet totalitarianism as well."

Not if it led to the Bosnian war and it got replaced with the capitalist totalitarianism we're experiencing today.

"How does that CIA-supplied crack taste?"

I'm not sure. I think they're too busy supplying weapons to kill babies in the ghetto for me to get a sample.

"So what? Are you jealous?"

No, I'm embarassed, because we chose not to keep up, once they were able to take care of themselves, because free health care is "socialist", even though our own corporations set up shop in places which have it, because it's cheaper for them.

"They started it."

Perhaps, but that doesn't make it right.

"Not all wars are started by the Joooos, D.Z."

I never said they were. Stop attributing false quotes.

"That's why South Korea has abandoned the DMZ to let the North Koreans come in and be friends."

Pretty much. I know we have, when we shifted our troops over there to Iraq.

"That's why we've stopped sending carrier groups to patrol the Strait of Taiwan"

Yep. We actually said that Taiwan was on its own.

"and stopped banning lead-contaminated products from China."

Yep.

"We did not install Saddam Hussein in Iraq."

Yes, the CIA coup in '63 was just a coincidence.

"We did not install the Islamic Regime in Iran."

No, but we installed the Shah which led to the regime.

"But if we take you at your word, D.Z., if we were responsible for creating the problem, wouldn't that mean we are responsible for doing something about it?"

Doing something would entail not repeating the same mistakes.

comment #58

George Prager says ...

D.Z. Aren't there prescription drugs you can take. Can Asperger's Syndrome be treated with medication?

comment #59

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

Mgmax: "I remember debating the evils of capitalism in China with someone (an Ivy Leaguer, no less) who had never heard of the famine caused by the Great Leap Forward, for instance."

If they're so bad, why are we doing business with them at the expense of our own safety? Doesn't that make us worse that we'd put business before morals?

All of which is exactly to my point-- take everything bad about capitalism in China right now, and it's an IMPROVEMENT in virtually every way on the ghastly horrors of life in Mao's time and system. The worst thing happening in a prison factory making lead paint toys right now is still better than famine erupting because Mao is trying to turn farms into steel factories, and people trading babies so they'd have something to eat that doesn't look like Uncle Wu.

comment #60

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

Oops, second graf above was still quoting D.Z.

comment #61

Ian Sinclair says ...

Of course, even the achievment of "spearheading the defeat of Nazi Germany" is tarnished by America's refusal to enter into World War 2 until three years had passed since it started (and Britain had run out of money).*

* In a memorable speech, Churchill asked America "Give us the tools and we will finish the job." But America wouldn't 'give' anything without payment. After two years of war, Roosevelt had drained Britain dry, stripping her of all her assets in the USA, including real estate and property. The British owned Viscose Company, worth £125 million was liquidated, Britain receiving only £87 million. Britain's £1,924 million investments in Canada were sold off to pay for raw materials bought in the United States. To make sure that Roosevelt got his money, he dispatched the American cruiser Louisville to the South African naval base of Simonstown to pick up £42 million worth of British gold, Britain's last negotiable asset, to help pay for American guns and ammunition. Not content with stripping Britain of her gold and assets, in return for 50 old World War I destroyers, (desperately needed by Britain as escort vessels) he demanded that Britain transfer all her scientific and technological secrets to the USA. Also, he demanded 99 year leases on the islands of Newfoundland, Jamaica, Trinidad and Bermuda for the setting up of American military and naval bases in case Britain should fall.

Of the 50 lend-lease destroyers supplied to Britain, seven were lost during the war. The first was taken over by a British crew on September 9, 1940. After 1943, when no longer useful, eight were sent to Russia, while the others were manned by French, Polish and Norwegian crews. These destroyers were renamed when they arrived in Britain. All were given the name of a town or city, hence the term 'Town Class' destroyer. During the course of the war, Britain had received 12 Billion, 775 million dollars worth of goods under the Lend-Lease program. Lord Beaverbrook was later to exclaim "The Japanese are our relentless enemies, and the Americans our un-relenting creditors."

Of course, that was a long time ago, and one of the achievements of Tony Blair's goverment was to pay off all of Great Britian's National debt, which is one of the reasons the British pound is so strong against the dollar.

Now, thanks to George Bush and co, the US has a national debt of $8,955,369,600,491 or a $142,000 for every family in the US. You can see the National debt Clock here:

http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Ldebtclock.htm

comment #62

Walter Sobchak says ...

How the hell have I never heard of The Cake?!?!

I'm supposed to know this stuff! That was PRICELESS!

Was that chick on the left doing that on purpose as some sort of avant-garde, anti-show-biz statement... or did she really freeze up on camera....?

By the way, if you like Francois, check this ye-ye girl out... (you'll be sporting wood for a week)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44hV7OpUu0c

comment #63

George Prager says ...

Awesome, Sobchak.
right back at ya:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qh7MRf70PdM

comment #64

George Prager says ...

And I think the chick on the left was doing that on purpose. She pulls the same thing in the "Mockingbird" video, so it's probably not some kind of Syd Barrett type freakout.

comment #65

Walter Sobchak says ...

Where's my damn time machine!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=sZyFchpuXIU

who cares if she couldn't sing?

comment #66

D.Z. says ...

Mgmax: "All of which is exactly to my point-- take everything bad about capitalism in China right now, and it's an IMPROVEMENT in virtually every way on the ghastly horrors of life in Mao's time and system."

So them still willing to kill the Tibetans and Taiwanese is somehow better, just because they're not communist?

"The worst thing happening in a prison factory making lead paint toys right now is still better than famine erupting because Mao is trying to turn farms into steel factories,"

So the one-child law is fine with you, too, even if it means that female children are more likely to get killed?

comment #67

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

It's better than THE WORST FAMINE IN HUMAN HISTORY, yes.

Is that really so hard to grasp? That at least a semi-free-market China, with the role of insane central planning by a mossy-toothed madman greatly reduced, is at least no longer prone to follies of that sort and on that scale which only total statism can produce?

comment #68

D.Z. says ...

"It's better than THE WORST FAMINE IN HUMAN HISTORY, yes."

It's not better for the Tibetans. Plus they're exploiting the famine in Darfur for profit, so how is not directly being responsible for genocide this time any better?

"That at least a semi-free-market China, with the role of insane central planning by a mossy-toothed madman greatly reduced, is at least no longer prone to follies of that sort and on that scale which only total statism can produce?"

So what you're arguing is human rights abuses are fine, as long as the government in charge of them is capitalist and not communist.

comment #69

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

The Red Chinese have been fucking the Tibetans over consistently for half a century. Demonstrate that this fact has any relevance to the subject of the RELATIVE badness of two systems of government in China.

"Plus they're exploiting the famine in Darfur for profit, so how is not directly being responsible for genocide this time any better?"

It's about 48 million less dead people better, one disaster compared to the other head to head.

"So what you're arguing is human rights abuses are fine, as long as the government in charge of them is capitalist and not communist."

You'll notice that I have never used the word communist. As any reader of Hayek knows, statism transcends the particular ideology. A statist China under Mao, completely bungling the job of central economic planning for a fifth of mankind, produced the greatest famine in human history. A more free-market China, today, does lots of unpleasant and regrettable things, but the worst of them is scarcely a pimple on Mao's behind by comparison. That is progress, if still scarcely admirable by our own standards.

It's interesting that you brought up the one child policy-- a perfect example of statism intruding into every aspect of private life. If you're so concerned about people lacking choice and liberty in that area, why not in their ability to start and run a business? If government knows best, if it's entitled to decide one of these for everybody, why shouldn't it be allowed to decide the other as well?

comment #70

christian says ...

" If government knows best, if it's entitled to decide one of these for everybody, why shouldn't it be allowed to decide the other as well?"

and government only knows best when its starting wars?

comment #71

christian says ...

iraq war supporters show their patriotism:

Carlos Arredondo, 47 year old father of two sons, arrived in the nation’s capitol on Monday, 09/10/07 to share a memorial he has made to honor for his eldest son, Alex. Carlos has visited thirty of the United States with the traveling memorial to his son Alexander. Lcpl. Alexander S. Arredondo, USMC was killed on 08/25/04. He was 20 years and 20 days old. The memorial consists of a casket, poster- size photographs of Alex when he graduated from boot camp, before his second tour in Iraq, lying in state at his wake, and a photo of Alex with his younger brother Brian.

Saturday, September 15, 2007 consisted of first a rally, a march towards the capitol and then a die-in. Carlos pulled the memorial along the march route approaching the rotunda near the capitol building. Several of the marchers requested for him to speak about the memorial where a crowd gathered around him. After finishing, several people walked with Carlos as he pulled the memorial. Several pictures of Alex dressed in his blues were attached to the display.

As Carlos passed counter protesters, one man ripped a picture of Alex from the memorial. Carlos leaped on the man to retrieve the picture. It was at that point that approximately five others all began to attack Carlos by kicking him in the head, legs, stomach and back.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/09/20/gold-star-father-who-lost-son-in-iraq-allegedly-beaten-by-members-of-pro-war-group/

comment #72

D.Z. says ...

Mgmax: "The Red Chinese have been fucking the Tibetans over consistently for half a century. Demonstrate that this fact has any relevance to the subject of the RELATIVE badness of two systems of government in China."

It's relevant in the sense that they haven't really changed.

"It's about 48 million less dead people better, one disaster compared to the other head to head."

Dave was just arguing that the Soviets were worse than Hitler, because they killed more people. Does that mean genocide is acceptable to the both of you, only if the perps are commies and/or they have a high score?

"A statist China under Mao, completely bungling the job of central economic planning for a fifth of mankind, produced the greatest famine in human history.A more free-market China, today, does lots of unpleasant and regrettable things, but the worst of them is scarcely a pimple on Mao's behind by comparison."

China's contributing to global warming, which will cause even greater famine to the entire world, but it's ok, because "the market" is allowing it to happen instead of one specific person.

"It's interesting that you brought up the one child policy-- a perfect example of statism intruding into every aspect of private life. If you're so concerned about people lacking choice and liberty in that area, why not in their ability to start and run a business?"

Because I want to make sure that business doesn't kill people's dogs or children?

comment #73

George Prager says ...

IS THAT ALL THERE IS?
Peggy Lee

http://youtube.com/watch?v=E-hiDMpcN9Y

SPOKEN:
I remember when I was a very little girl, our house caught on fire.
I'll never forget the look on my father's face as he gathered me up
in his arms and raced through the burning building out to the pavement.
I stood there shivering in my pajamas and watched the whole world go up in flames.
And when it was all over I said to myself, "Is that all there is to a fire"

SUNG:
Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

SPOKEN:
And when I was 12 years old, my father took me to a circus, the greatest show on earth.
There were clowns and elephants and dancing bears.
And a beautiful lady in pink tights flew high above our heads.
And so I sat there watching the marvelous spectacle.
I had the feeling that something was missing.
I don't know what, but when it was over,
I said to myself, "is that all there is to a circus?

SUNG:
Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

SPOKEN:
Then I fell in love, head over heels in love, with the most wonderful boy in the world.
We would take long walks by the river or just sit for hours gazing into each other's eyes.
We were so very much in love.
Then one day he went away and I thought I'd die, but I didn't,
and when I didn't I said to myself, "is that all there is to love?"

SUNG:
Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing

SPOKEN:
I know what you must be saying to yourselves,
if that's the way she feels about it why doesn't she just end it all?
Oh, no, not me. I'm in no hurry for that final disappointment,
for I know just as well as I'm standing here talking to you,
when that final moment comes and I'm breathing my lst breath, I'll be saying to myself

SUNG:
Is that all there is, is that all there is
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
Let's break out the booze and have a ball
If that's all there is

comment #74

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

Well, D.Z, it's only a country of a billion people, why don't you run right over there and fix it, since both communism and capitalism have failed to produce instant results to your exacting satisfaction.

George, my alcoholic father found that song very deep. So did John F. Kennedy. I think it appeals to a lot of people who are shocked to discover, in the wee small hours, that happiness is not in fact the result of complete self-indulgence and satyrism.

comment #75

George Prager says ...

Mgmax, I agree with you. (I wouldn't have put it up if I didn't agree with the song and like the song and the singer of the song). You're endless arguments with D.Z. (why bother? you might as well debate someone in the KKK) have made you humorless.

And I think John F. Kennedy was already dead when this song was written (this version came out in 1969).

comment #76

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