comment #1

le corbeau says ...

Yeah, nobody looks good in that thing. The kid is one of those annoying a-holes who monopolizes a public event and won't shut up, Kerry is ineffectual (compare it to the way John McCain recently handled, with humor and command of the stage, a kid who basically asked if he expected to go senile and die in office), and the cops once again prove that the least free place to speak in America is a college campus.

comment #2

thatrader says ...

That was brutal to watch. Toward the end, the kid just asks to be let go and he'll walk out on his own accrd, considering they had no grounds to arrest him, they should have. And then, he begs the officer not to taze him, he is no longer resisting arrest, and all we hear is him screaming.

That's just hard to watch and I hope the cops who did this are all fired.

And as far as Kerry goes, there's no use crying over spilled milk now, but he had even more reason than Gore to believe that there was voter fraud that here. The only time in history that the exit polls were wrong? The state of Florida which has a majority that are registered Democrat once again vote majority Republican?

I think Bill Maher said it best when he said, "This isn't a democracy, because if there was, there'd be an opposition to the Republican Party."

comment #3

JVD says ...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ec_1190097717&p=1

This video follows the tasering as the student is taken out of the building. Several times throughout his arrest, he asks if he's about to taken away and "killed." The cops acted beyond excessively, but c'mon, he's acting beyond narcissistic. These are campus rent-a-cops. Take the arrest like a man and sue the shit out of everybody later.

comment #4

BurmaShave says ...

I think this just reaffirms what all of us knew, even those of us who begrudgingly voted for him: John Kerry is a massive creep.

comment #5

MickTravis says ...

Jeez, everybody involved should be flogged: Kerry, the kid, the cops.

It's like a "Gimme Shelter" re-enactment:

The kid is that naked fat lady rolling around on acid in the crowd; the cops are the Hell's Angels and Kerry's Grace Slick, "Don't put your bodies on anyone unless you intend love."

comment #6

arch451 says ...

I'm not even going to watch it...the whole thing sounds so awkward.

comment #7

gruver1 says ...

Wells to Burma Shave: I was a begrudging Kerry guy in '04, but I have to agree. Kerry did not stand up to this situation in the right way. He stood there and watched like a good German as the storm troopers overwhelmed and tasered this strident Jewish kid who had the mike. It seems to me that Kerry, by his silence, seemed relatively okay with the subduing and the muffling of this student, and didn't seem all that interested in answering his questions.

comment #8

gruver1 says ...

Wells to Burma Shave: I was a begrudging Kerry guy in '04, but I have to agree. Kerry did not stand up to this situation in the right way. He stood there and watched like a good German as the storm troopers overwhelmed and tasered this strident Jewish kid who had the mike. It seems to me that Kerry, by his silence, seemed relatively okay with the subduing and the muffling of this student, and didn't seem all that interested in answering his questions.

comment #9

JD says ...

The kid asked a valid (and important) question and then got pissed off because the idiot cops tried to drag him out of the event. I don't think he comes off that bad actually. He's just standing up for his rights, while everyone else extends their usual over-the-top courtesy toward a politician. Why are politicians so beyond reproach in the United States? If it really is a free country and not some authoritarian, fascist state -- which is what this A Scanner Darkly-like clip suggests -- people should be encouraged to interrogate elected officials on a regular basis.

comment #10

jghoward says ...

My take on the video is this: The guy first resisted their efforts to take him out of the auditorium in an orderly fashion, then, when the cops decided they had to arrest him (for refusing to be led out) he resisted their efforts to arrest him. What did you expect the cops to do in this situation? They aren't superhuman beings who can magically subdue someone without any fuss or muss. I don't understand how people can side with the obnoxious idiot who disrupted the event -- notice the applause from the crowd when the cops first tried to lead him out of the place. This guy was bigger than most of the cops wrestling with him and from what I can tell, they did what they could to make him comply with their orders. He refused.

Here's a simple guide: when the police try to remove you from a situation, comply. When the police try to arrest you, comply. If you refuse to comply, then chances are you will get your ass kicked -- and perhaps should.

comment #11

dre says ...

That video disgusts me. There was no grounds for arrest. Speaking loudly into the microphone is not grounds or arrest. The kid was subdued and THEN tasered. The kid is an idiot, but if that's what happens if you speak angrily ... jesus

comment #12

JD says ...

That is truly disturbed read on this video, jghoward. Your complacent submission to all authority -- justified or not -- is the reason stuff like this happens so frequently in the United States. The cops don't behave like this in real democracies because they know the audience would riot in response to their blatant abuse of power.

comment #13

MathewM says ...

That was actually pretty funny. "Don't tas me, dooonnn't tas me....awww!!" Honestly the student is typical of most young college men today. Spoiled and was probably raised in a home where he was never spanked for doing something wrong. He also came across as a drama queen, knowing that everything was being taped. Did he deserved to be tased? Probably not but he was resisting and was crying like a baby about it. Kerry on the other hand sounded like he was drugged.

comment #14

MathewM says ...

"strident Jewish kid who had the mike"

Really stretching to make a point aren't you Jeff? I'm sure the cops checked his ethnic background before tasering him.

comment #15

BurmaShave says ...

First they came for the strident and spoiled college boy, and I did nothing because I was not a strident and spoiled college boy.

comment #16

BNick says ...

These idiot questioners are ubitquitous on college campuses. Whatever you think of his beef with the 2004 election, by the end he was asking whether Kerry and Bush were in the same secret society at Yale. I won't pretend to have access to the deepest and most disturbing recesses of this kid's mind, but I'm going to assume he was alleging Kerry's involvement in a conspiracy to re-elect Bush.

I don't think the cops should have pushed him away from the microphone. But at the same time, once things got physical, he started acting like a nut. Even if you think tasering was overboard, you can't claim he didn't give them a reason to rough him up. People like this guy (wrongly) fashion themselves as brave dissidents in a society that demands order and obediance. In his mind, this was right out of Orwell and he was being led away to be tortured and re-educated. But he was clearly in no danger from the cops, there were dozens of people present including a sitting Senator. He was being an idiot and is primarily to blame for it.

As for Kerry, I'm not sure what he should have done. Gotten off the stage and wrestled with the cops? C'mon.

And JD, this is a real democracy. Come back to Earth, we miss you.

comment #17

Alex says ...

When I'm not writing about movies I'm doing events like this on a college campus. My first observation is - why are there two cops right next to this kid at the mic? Didn't he start this whole thing by running away from the cops into the event? In that case, the kid is already resisting arrest. So, if the cops are nice enough to let him at least ask his question, once, he betrays that friendly agreement, they are free to then arrest the kid. He resists and responds with physical force - they should be free to tase him. Personally a tase is light physical warning compared to a beating. What happened to Reginald Denny was a beating. What happened to Rodney King was a beating. What happened to this kid was restraint. In my opinion.

comment #18

Rothchild says ...

You're all wrong about this. Unless I've been given bad information. He wasn't supposed to get a question. The session was over. But he kept going on and on. That's not the end of the world, but they would have just escorted him out of their without a fuss but he freaked out and started screaming, as you saw, and resisted arrest. "I'm just going to walk out of here! You can't do anything to me!" He could have sued the shit out of him right then and there, but honestly, tell me one thing they should have done at that point? What do you do when you can't even get a guy in cuffs and he's screaming and yelling like a madman?

comment #19

corey3rd says ...

John Kerry should have just started answering the question - that would have put the entire audience to sleep.

at least John can say that he learned the lesson of Gitmo - let the goons do your dirty work. Whatever happened to slapping the cuffs on the kid? Is it more proper to unload electricity into a suspect?

damn shame Kerry didn't get zapped when he wouldn't shut up in front of Congress about Vietnam war crimes or when he tossed his medals. Yesterday's radical is this season's Nazi.

comment #20

le corbeau says ...

"The only time in history that the exit polls were wrong? The state of Florida which has a majority that are registered Democrat once again vote majority Republican?"

Oh my God, a Southern state full of old people voted Republican? The only possible answer is that Bu$hitler rigged it!

But then you believe exit polls (so are they ALL right, even when they totally disagree with each other?)

comment #21

MickTravis says ...

"The kid asked a valid (and important) question and then got pissed off because the idiot cops tried to drag him out of the event."

I didn't hear a valid question. Reportedly, he was asking about the 2004 election but all I heard was him asking about the Skull & Bones society (old news) in an almost Chris Farley-interviewing style.

What's interesting is that nobody in the crowd seems to mind or object. And while that could just mean they're a bunch of apathetic punks, or shocked by the sudden chaos, it seems to me most were thinking, "Get that loud-mouthed idiot outta here."

Didn't that kid see "The Skulls" ?

comment #22

BNick says ...

Kerry didn't toss his medals. He tossed someone else's.

comment #23

christian says ...

"Spoiled and was probably raised in a home where he was never spanked for doing something wrong."

welcome to conservative land! wher a good ass whuppin' will turn you into a man like george bush, dick cheney, rush limbaugh, etc. so when bush said we were "kicking ass" in iraq, he meant we were kicking its ass like a spoiled child...or branding an ass as was bush's college passion.

kery should have taken command of the situation and let the guy speak. kerry's been in tougher spots in nam than here. the cops acted like cops often do, bullying and fascist in our subtle cowering state of america. tasering the guy?

but at least the repubs will step up and say he deserves it...for asking questions at a college!

comment #24

Rich S. says ...

"Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help! I'm being repressed!"

comment #25

BurmaShave says ...

The solution to all of this: Senator Chuck Norris.

comment #26

Alex says ...

There are several accounts from students at the event about what lead to the arrest of this kid. Here is one:

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2007/9/18/10649/5334

comment #27

Monument says ...

"Don't taze me bro, don't taze me...Aaahhgghh!!!"

Maybe the cops went overboard, but that kid was a Class A toolbag. When exactly did parents stop teaching their children decorum, politeness, and respect?

comment #28

Ian Sinclair says ...

Oh, that was the tazer? I thought it was the full trailer.

comment #29

BNick says ...

If I were an elected official I wouldn't want to speak at a college campus. You're guaranteed to get one or two jokers like this every time, and with cell phone cameras and YouTube, you'll just end up looking like a fool in front of the whole country.

It's not just Republicans or Democrats that get it either, it's both parties. And to be fair, I think you'd have to concede that virtually every time something like this happens, the "questioner" is a lefty. College Republicans, for all their faults, don't do this stuff.

comment #30

BNick says ...

Ian,

Bah-dum ching!

comment #31

MAGGA says ...

"by the end he was asking whether Kerry and Bush were in the same secret society at Yale"

They were, as both of them have admitted, both following it up with "it is so secret we can not talk about it" and a grin. All this means to me is that it might be a good idea to expand the pool from which people in power positions are elected, and while their shared roots should have big a big story (notice that no conspiracy is implied before retorting), that is besides the issue here. Authoritarian arrogance is a problem, certainly in Norway, and needs to be talked about. Since I am at work I have no time to locate them, but there are plenty of videos of people being arrested for no good reason at political meetings. Most of these people are known conspiracy theorists etc, but what does it say about our times when people with dissenting views, no matter how confused, have to resort to battling their way to a mic to be heard? Because we all know that most of these political gatherings are carefully screened for any suggestion of controversy. The anger towards authority, which is growing rapidly as evidenced by the growing number of sites, videos etc claiming this or that conspiracy, as well as all kinds off polls, will have plenty of fertile ground as long as politicians and representatives of authority behave as badly as the people who are accusing them of wrongdoings.

comment #32

Walter Sobchak says ...

Say hello to the next Cindy Sheehan... this kid is stoked... he's now going to be a celebrity on campus, "yep, I was that dude that got tazered by the fascist, corporate-stooge police for speaking the truth, bro...no blood for oil, man!... free Mamu-what's-his-name!...power to the people!" He'll next be seen marching through the mall in D.C., accompanied by Sarandon, Penn and an army of giant puppets that look like Cheney...

And, going along with the "Gimme Shelter" framework mentioned above... which person in the video represents that beefy, biker-looking guy with the long hair and beard who's standing on the stage gritting his teeth and clenching his fists, (apparently in an effort to work out some angst or work some acid out of his bloodstream).... who then gets noticed by a Hell's Angel and tossed off the stage during "Sympathy..." ?

comment #33

iamjoe says ...

That kid was acting like an typical of his generation entitled jackass. What did he think getting up and yelling machine questions was going to do?
I am completely for protests, completely for asking people the hard questions. But do it in a way that works; that would actually be an end to the mean.

comment #34

Stephe96 says ...

I wonder if it occured to Kerry that he's now become the "Man" he so vigorously protested against decades ago...

Speak truth to power, indeed.

comment #35

corey3rd says ...

John Kerry made sure that kid is entitled to be blown apart so little girls in Iraq can go to school.

comment #36

christian says ...

"no blood for oil, man!"

walter, stop quoting that left wing loony, alan greenspan.

comment #37

MAGGA says ...

"I am completely for protests, completely for asking people the hard questions. But do it in a way that works; that would actually be an end to the mean."

Agreed. How, though?

"going along with the "Gimme Shelter" framework mentioned above... which person in the video represents that beefy, biker-looking guy with the long hair and beard who's standing on the stage gritting his teeth and clenching his fists, (apparently in an effort to work out some angst or work some acid out of his bloodstream).... who then gets noticed by a Hell's Angel and tossed off the stage during "Sympathy..." ?"

I may misread this like i sometimes do, but if this is an attemtp to let Hells Angels off the hook for that event, well... No, that can not be the case

comment #38

BurmaShave says ...

No, Disney let them off the hook when they renamed the gang in WILD HOGS after protests (read: threats).

comment #39

MickTravis says ...

Walter, that tripping Hell's Angel is my favorite part of the movie.

He's so fucked up, he's onstage singing a completely different song than what's being sung by Mick Jagger, like, five feet away from him. I've been that fucked up, but not on a stage in front of 500,000 people.

And when Sonny Barger notices him? Classic. The Angel is cast into the void.

But I must correct you: I've seen Cindy Sheehan and that idiot crybaby kid is no Cindy Sheehan.

comment #40

Dave says ...

"And to be fair, I think you'd have to concede that virtually every time something like this happens, the "questioner" is a lefty. College Republicans, for all their faults, don't do this stuff."

I don't disagree in large part-- all the best conspiracy nuts are on the Left these days.

That said, College Republicans get to deal with the Ron Paul crowd too. They have the same crazy people come up to the mikes at GOP events.

I will be the first person in line to criticize the horribly unfree PC atmosphere at most college campuses. And Lord knows, I have zero patience for college rent-a-cops.

But come on-- this guy was just another regular wacko talking to hear himself talk (like how I write to read myself write ;-). He wasn't asking a question, he was giving a speech, and a tired & lame one at that. I have no problem with his mike being shut off. No one is being "chilled" here, the guy was an ass, and this is still a society of *polite* discourse-- or at least that's what colleges should teach, how to agree to disagree, and find common ground even with people who hold positions the opposite of your own.

Alas, not many colleges do that anymore. Hyperbole and hysteria is rewarded in society and the media, on both sides of the aisle. The only way people like this feel they can be heard is if they scream and yell-- it's no longer acceptable to say, "I believe you're wrong, and here's why I think that," instead it has to be "YOU'RE EVIL AND THE WORST PERSON EVER, WORSE THAN EVEN HITLER!" Instead of bad ideas or honest-but-well-intentioned mistakes, it's all now evil plans and nefarious conspiracies.

Hey, if you think our leaders are wrong, vote them out of office and vote new ones in. That's how the system works, and has worked, for a very long time. In the meantime, petition them respectfully, and try to meet them halfway, because we're *all* Americans, and we all want what's best for the country, even if we sometimes disagree on the particulars.

Why is that seen as crazy-talk? Since when did common sense and decency leave political discourse? Both parties are to blame, but you can't blame them forever-- eventually, you have to look around at your friends, and in the mirror, and try to do something different.

Sorry for the tangent, but it's an issue near-and-dear to my heart. I didn't vote for Bill Clinton. I supported his impeachment, and not because he liked blowjobs, but because he failed to uphold the law.

But guess what? I interned at the White House under the man. I disagreed with his policies, I disagreed with his politics, but in the end, I respected the office, the process, our government, and to this day I'm damn proud to say I worked in the White House, even when all it does now is bring the inevitable "Did you know Monica?" jokes.

There are evil people in this world. I just don't seem to think many of them are my fellow countrymen, regardless of which side of the aisle they're on.

[off soapbox!]

comment #41

WJ says ...

Check out the longer video on the same site as the previous one:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=657_1190085332

They already had him under submission in handcuffs on the floor when they tasered him. Completely uncalled for. Every one of those rent-a-cops should be fired. Just watching that video gets my righteous indignation tingling.

The guy was a douchebag, but this is a democracy. As evidenced by our esteemed Mr. Bush, even douchebags get a say.

comment #42

foxnewsisfake says ...

Same footage, better angle:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434

comment #43

christian says ...

"I didn't vote for Bill Clinton. I supported his impeachment, and not because he liked blowjobs, but because he failed to uphold the law."

so you agree george w. bush should be impeached too.

ditto.

comment #44

MickTravis says ...

Dave, did you know Monica?

comment #45

Monument says ...

Regardless of your political views, when meeting a United States Senator, Representive, State Governor, or even the President, show some fucking respect.

That kid didn't have to be handcuffed, he didn't have to be tasered, he didn't have to be arrested; he asked for it.

Yes, even douchebags get a say in our democracy, but they are rarely listened to, due to the aforementioned douchebaggery. What if protesters actually had something intelligent to say? What if they didn't all look like unwashed hippies? What if they actually learned how to debate, work the system, use logic, or speak at a conversational volume?

But this is America, if you want to go down swinging then by all means do so; but don't go down screaming like a 5 year old with a skinned knee or some kind of spineless pussy.

comment #46

corey3rd says ...

whenever I'm in a men's room with a senator, I always give him the respect of a reach around.

comment #47

Stephe96 says ...

By contrast, those Code Pink wackos who started screaming their nonsense during the Patraus testimony were simply grabbed and escorted out the door. Imagine if THEY had been tasered? The libs would be sreaming bloody murder about free speech rights. And, yes, I realize many on the left are also outraged about the Kerry incident...but you have to admit that it would have an entirely different spin if George Bush was somehow involved...

comment #48

Dave says ...

"so you agree george w. bush should be impeached too."

And what alleged crime would that be again? Doing something you disagree with, Christian? Bush does things I disagree with, too. I won't be voting for him in 2008 because of it.

Oh, wait-- NO ONE will be voting for Bush in 2008, because he's not running.

The Democratic Party should stop fighting the last political war. I'm just sayin'.

"Dave, did you know Monica?"

Ha ha ha. . . there's always a joker ;-). Nope, didn't know her. When I was an intern, she had already stopped being an intern and taken a job at the WH. The closest I ever came (ahem) to knowing her was through friends-of-friends, which in Washington ain't very close at all (like Hollywood, everybody knows somebody who knows everybody-- Bacon numbers of 2 all around).

comment #49

MAGGA says ...

"all the best conspiracy nuts are on the Left these days."

Not true. Most of the profiled conspiracy theorists are far-righ and believe that Bush is a leftie who wants to create a one-world gouvernment through the process of globalization. A mix of political standpoints to be sure, but that is convenient if one wants to use everything ones enemy says to paint them as conspiracists.

comment #50

christian says ...

"And what alleged crime would that be again?"

where to start? how about continual lying to america under oath to protect the constitution.

but you're allegiance to the law stops at clinton, of course.

and the right have plenty o' conspiracy nuts around. just look at fox.

comment #51

Walter Sobchak says ...

(keep me signed in to TypeKey for the next five minutes....arrggg!)

christian.... stop misquoting Alan Greenspan.... (you didn't hear his clarification.. your hands were over your ears as you hummed loudly and chanted "can't take it back, can't take it back!")

I'd love to see a "where are they now" interview with the guy from the Gimme Shelter stage mentioned above, (assuming he's still alive)... he's probably a stock analyst with A.G. Edwards and father of teenagers... "I was sooooo wasted... I don't even remember that night... please don't let my kids see that..."

comment #52

christian says ...

and i know the diff twixt "you're" and "your."
i swear under oath.

comment #53

Walter Sobchak says ...

Right on about Fox news.... the other day I was flipping around and I stopped momentarily at Fox.... rather, the remote stopped at Fox.... (little known fact, Fox is so big and powerful that they've conspired with cable companies to make sure no matter what button you push on your remote, it comes up Fox....)

Anyway, they had a politcal discussion show and get this- they had the SAME NUMBER of conservatives on as liberals! Two liberals, two conservatives! I kid you not! Can you believe that?! I know what people mean now when they say Fox is a right wing tool hate propaganda lies machine....thing...

I mean, come on! EVERYONE knows you're supposed to, (at the very least) have a two liberals to one conservative ratio on a show like that.... basic friggin knowledge, people!....

don't they watch Chris Matthews to see how it's done, for crying out loud?

in other news.... Jimmy Carter couldn't say "nuclear" either, yet y'all love his tax-raising, dictator-appeasing, Jew-hating arse

comment #54

Walter Sobchak says ...

A fun game is to watch the video and note the precise moment that you would've hit the tazer trigger.... I zapped him about 14 seconds in....

comment #55

MAGGA says ...

The Fox conspiracy theories are really cute. I fondly remember "The War On Christmas"

comment #56

christian says ...

In his new book The Age of Turbulence: Adventures in a New World, Mr Greenspan wrote: "I'm saddened that it is politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: The Iraq war is largely about oil."

here's his "clarification" contradicting his own book:

...former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan said he told the White House before the Iraq war that removing Saddam Hussein was "essential" to secure world oil supplies, according to an interview published today.

so in both cases, the war is about oil.

comment #57

BNick says ...

Walter, I tried that to but I kept tasering Kerry.

comment #58

Monument says ...

This kind of tit for tat, "I'm right and you're wrong" bullshit is why our political system has become such a joke. Republicans blame the Democrats and Democrats blame the Republicans, meanwhile our democracy is being completely undermined. Both parties let it happen.

comment #59

Dave says ...

MAGGA, in fairness, I did highlight the Ron Paul crowd in my posting.

A wise poli-sci professor I had far too many years ago use to describe the political spectrum not as a straight line from Left to Center to Right, but a circle, with the political "center" at the top of the circle, and the loons at the bottom of the circle. His point being obvious-- eventually, you can move so far left or right that you meet again at the bottom. I think that describes Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich and their respective supporters pretty accurately, methinks.

Christian-- the President failed to protect the Constitution? Oh my, you mean that's a fake copy sitting in the Archives over across the river? Who stole it? I bet it was that Nick Cage fellow, he's crafty.

Really, honestly, please: my eyes are as wide-open as any other average American. Where's the dictatorship? The jackbooted stormtroopers? The insidious fascism? It's not there because it does not exist. It's a fantasy, a persecution complex that serves only to inflate the self-importance of the critics who cry foul.

We have a such a horrible country right now, with no rights whatsoever. The fact that we're having this discussion at all is amazing, I'm surprised Jeff Wells hasn't been hauled up to a kangaroo court and shot in the back of the head for his treasonous comments. Any day now, I'm sure, we'll see him and you and all the other people speaking truth to power dragged off to Gitmo.

Any. Day. Now.

comment #60

chicagodad says ...

Of course walter. One of the first command officers of the US Navy's Nuclear sub program couldn't say nuclear.

comment #61

BNick says ...

What Dave said.

Especially about the circle thing. Hitler and Stalin, man. Perfect example.

comment #62

Jay T. says ...

That video is a legal goldmine for the kid... obnoxious as he is/was.

comment #63

christian says ...

yes, dave, the supporters of kucinich include the thousands of hard-working middle american loons that cheered him repeatedly during the afl-cio debate. including my republican cousin.

and fascism can come in all forms, obvious and subtle. one subtle form is when your market choices are limited by monopolizing corporations -- like when enron fascistically shut down power grids in 2001 to oversell energy to the "fucking grandmothers" of california as one of your free market trading pals suggested.

and when your pal bush let pal ken lay and enron continue to rip off the state by lying, why, that was good ol fashioned capitalism! and bush was protecting americans! how? who the fuck knows?

only dave. safe in his cocoon.

comment #64

corey3rd says ...

Alan Colmes is the ugliest Leftie that can be found on TV. The guy looks like a zombie - forget National Healthcare - he wants to eat your children's brains. Fox provides a couple idiot lefties so they can spook the blue hairs.

And is it ever "even" on Fox since the commentor (that pass themselves off as anchors) will always belittle the non-Bushie.

between this and the libarary incident, it seems that the campus police of the 21st Century are quick to zap.

comment #65

MAGGA says ...

Is it loony, though, to suggest that selling a war with information one knows to be false is a conspiracy? It is probably the worst one in recent western history as far as I can see. No matter what one thinks of Bill Maher he summed up the attitude pretty well: "They lost their keys in the garage, but they are looking for them in the living room because there is better light"

comment #66

BNick says ...

I think what Dave was saying is that you can't really call Kucinich and Paul "left" or "right" in any meaningful sense. The anti-globalization, anti-trade, anti-war crowd transcends the ideological spectrum. I don't doubt that lots of Republicans gravitate to Kucinich's message, probably the blue collar ones who are scared of their jobs moving elsewhere.

And fascism, wow. What an overused term. Enron is fascism now. Amazing.

comment #67

Walter Sobchak says ...

George Stephanapolouoslous, Chris Matthews, Tim Russert.... all worked for Democrats....

I don't have a huge problem with that... (in fact, I think Russert is quite excellent at what he does)...

point being, if someone who worked for a Republican went to work anchoring a network news telecast or hosting a political affairs show many of you would be having kittens...

ABC World News Tonight with Karl Rove?

it's also amazing how many people base their opinions of Fox news not on what they've seen by actually watching Fox News but from what they've heard and read about it elsewhere...
I know this because I listen to my lefty friends talk about it.. they think the entire 24 hour broadcast day consists of O'Reilly and Hannity screaming at the camera about awful liberals

of course Fox leans right, but no more than CNN, MSNBC, NBC and CBS lean left

it's amazing how hysterical liberals get over Fox News... on its best day it pulls in nothing compared to the three major networks...

but then people on the left have made hysteria an art form
(see video of tazer boy)

comment #68

christian says ...

"of course Fox leans right, but no more than CNN, MSNBC, NBC and CBS lean left"

except when they're parroting bush lies on wmd's.

your claim is not factual, walter.

comment #69

corey3rd says ...

none of these networks lean right or left. If given a choice between showing breaking news in Iraq vs. OJ Simpson or Britney Spears news, guess who gets the "Big Story."

Anyone else laughing at John Gibson getting stuck with a female co-anchor on Fox? Guy ought to hold a coffee cup so he can look busy while she cuckolds him on his own show.

comment #70

christian says ...

Hannity: I think we learned something and you touched on this in the book as it relates to as for example when people get angry, like on the immigration bill. The fix was in. Everybody agreed to it. They didn’t expect a push back. Talk radio got involved, FOX NEWS, the new media all of a sudden people got informed. They started dialing—instilled fear in their politicians and it changed.

comment #71

Walter Sobchak says ...

so what you're saying is, Bush is an amazing, cerebral guy because he was the only person, apparently, who knew that there were no WMDs....

were the Russians, Germans, French, British as well as Clinton lying when they said there were WMDs?

you are on the far-left, christian....... that's okay, but you are....
to someone like you, Chris Matthews is right wing and the New York Times is a conservative tool of the Bush administration

comment #72

christian says ...

"Chris Matthews is right wing and the New York Times is a conservative tool of the Bush administration"

matthews is a mental tool who has repeatedly waxed about bush's manliness and fred thompson's manly cologne smell while giving ann coulter a fourm to call al gore a "total fag" while he chuckles. very left wing, yes?

and you forget that scooter libby provided judith miller with front page wmd lies for the oh so liberal ny times. very right wing, no?

and the french believed the bush wmd tale? yes, i recall the love fox and america showed france in 2003...

facts, walter. facts.

comment #73

George Prager says ...

here's my post from the Sally Field thread:

Here's a better video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqAVvlyVbag

As you can see, the kid is a little unhinged, delusions of grandeur, etc...

Kerry should have walked down into the audience, told him that he was right and gave him a big ol' hug. Then the campus police should've surrounded them in a big bear hug and sang "God Bless America."

comment #74

George Prager says ...

Did I forget to mention that every poster on this thread is a faggot?

comment #75

corey3rd says ...

Jimmy Stewart should have shut his mouth and done exactly what the man tells him what to do. It's not like this country was founded by revolutionaries. Thomas Jefferson and his buddies shut up when the King told them their time was up.

comment #76

Stephe96 says ...

Bill Clinton, 12/16/98

"Earlier today I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors."

http://www.cnn.com/US/9812/16/clinton.iraq.speech/#2

Let me guess: Karl Rove built a time machine in his basement and traveled back to insert false intel about Iraq WMD into Clinton's speech.

The "Bush lied" crowd is insane. Everyone on planet suspected Saddam had WMD. Saddam was doing everything he could to hinder the UN inspectors. Saddam was certainly acting as if he had WMD. This is the situation Clinton and Bush both faced. And after 9/11 it would've been utterly irresponsible for any president to simply trust a madman like Saddam.

From the same article:

Clinton also called Hussein a threat to his people and to the security of the world.
"The best way to end that threat once and for all is with a new Iraqi government -- a government ready to live in peace with its neighbors, a government that respects the rights of its people," Clinton said.
Such a change in Baghdad would take time and effort, Clinton said, adding that his administration would work with Iraqi opposition forces.

This is all old stuff, folks. You can look it up. But I understand that it's easier for the dim bulbs among us to simply chant "Bush lied."

comment #77

nemo says ...

You have to be not only right wing, but blind as well to consider Chris Matthews (the guy with a man crush on Bush's flight suit and Fred Thompson's after shave), the NY Times (home of Judith Miller), or Tim Russert (whom Dick Cheney considers an easily manipulated tool) left wing.

I have to say, I'm amazed to hear that anyone showed up for a speech by John Kerry yesterday. I voted for the worthless boring f**ker (almost anything is better than Bush), and I wouldn't cross the street to hear what he has to say today.

comment #78

Walter Sobchak says ...

Yes, Stephe96, that is all well and good.... but what you fail to realize is, "Bush Lied, People Died" RHYMES... and it fits neatly on a placard and is easily chantable and darn it, it just feels so good to say... c'mon.... focus on what really matters, please

and christian... oh forget it

(btw Carol Channing popped up at the Pink Martini show at the Bowl the other night... alas, she did not sing Skidoo)

comment #79

Stephe96 says ...

Walter,

Yeah, what was I thinking? Actually bringing facts and context into the conversation. I'm sorry.

comment #80

corey3rd says ...

I only trusted the UN inspectors who said they couldn't find any WMDs. Remember those liars?

Back to the subject. Kerry was about to respond when the Blackshirts moved in on the kid is what makes it less a case of "resisting arrest" and more of overzealous mall cops moment. It is a WTF moment.

comment #81

Ogami Itto says ...

"Regardless of your political views, when meeting a United States Senator, Representive, State Governor, or even the President, show some fucking respect."

The sort of people who defend and enable corporate lobbyists (Hillary Clinton et al.), solicit sex in public rest rooms (Larry Craig), solicit sex from barely legal Congressional pages (Mark Foley), actually have sex with Congressional pages (Dan Crane, Gerry Studds), have an affair with an intern and possibly murder her (Gary Condit), and lie, lie, lie about a poorly planned, ideologically and economically driven Iraq War (George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, et al.) don't deserve any fucking respect.

And the posters who say the audience didn't care about what was happening to that college kid, you either didn't bother to watch the videos Wells linked to, or you're flat-out lying. There were plenty of audience members who protested the treatment of the kid once the cops got needlessly violent.

Meanwhile, that stand-up guy John Kerry made a lame joke (not surprising since his presidential candidacy was a lame joke as well).

comment #82

christian says ...

"Everyone on planet suspected Saddam had WMD."

- February 24, 2001, during a visit to Cairo, Egypt Colin Powell stated: ”He [Saddam Hussein] has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors.”

- Sidney Blumenthal reports in Salon that President Bush ignored a 2002 Oval Office briefing in which CIA director George Tenet provided him with intelligence that Saddam Hussein did not possess weapons of mass destruction. “Bush dismissed as worthless this information from the Iraqi foreign minister, a member of Saddam’s inner circle, although it turned out to be accurate in every detail.” “The president had no interest in the intelligence,” a CIA officer disclosed. “Bush didn’t give a f**k about the intelligence. He had his mind made up.”

except the millions who didn't and protested along with the iraq weapons inspectors like hans blix, scott ritter, and of course, the patriotic republican party who accused clinton of "wagging the dog" when he attacked iraq and promptly impeached the president while at war, thus spitting in the face of those troops in harms way. thanks hannity!

comment #83

mrbill says ...

"This is all old stuff, folks. You can look it up."

Took your advice . . .

The United Nations located and destroyed large quantities of Iraqi WMD throughout the 1990s in spite of persistent Iraqi obstruction. Washington withdrew weapons inspectors in 1998, resulting in Operation Desert Fox, which further degraded Iraq's WMD capability. The United States and the UK, along with many intelligence experts, asserted that Saddam Hussein still possessed large hidden stockpiles of WMD in 2003, and that he must be prevented from building any more. Inspections restarted in 2002, but hadn't turned up any evidence of ongoing programs when the United States and the "Coalition of guysthe Willing" invaded Iraq and overthrew Saddam Hussein in March 2003.
_________________________________

This explains the Bill Clinton reference somewhat better than "basement time machines".

Don't let the "facts and context" slow you down, your cute patter is hysterical. I love laughing at you guys.

comment #84

Stephe96 says ...

mrbill,

From article I posted above:

Iraq failed to cooperate with the inspectors and placed new restrictions on them, Clinton said. He said Iraqi officials also destroyed records and moved everything, even the furniture, out of suspected sites before inspectors were allowed in.
"Instead of inspectors disarming Saddam, Saddam has disarmed the inspectors," Clinton said.

So I guess Saddam was only fooling weapons inspectors when Clinton was in office, huh? That's awfully convenient, isn't it?

comment #85

christian says ...

"So I guess Saddam was only fooling weapons inspectors when Clinton was in office, huh? That's awfully convenient, isn't it?"

so you must have been truly outraged that republicans accused clinton of diverting attention from monica-gate to bomb iraq...

comment #86

transmogrifier says ...

Imagine two incredibly drunk, blind opposing football fans arguing over which team has the nicest looking uniform, and you have my impression of American political discourse.

comment #87

corey3rd says ...

they keep rerunning this footage on the news channels. It just proves that John Kerry is once more quick to act. He starts to answer the question when the mall cops nab the kid. Kerry doesn't give a crap about this kid. he could have stopped this ugliness. But being a man of inaction, he just stood on the stage. Why did John Kerry not win the presidency? Here's your answer.

comment #88

christian says ...

sadly half-true.

comment #89

corey3rd says ...

i meant to type "Kerry's once more not quick to act."

comment #90

Abbey Normal says ...

I admit, I kind of enjoy hearing him scream as he gets Tasered (it's capitalized, btw...it's a brand name). I hate loudmouth blowhard douchebags and it's kind of fun to watch one suffer. However, for the good of the larger society and our rights as individuals, we have to get mad when cops do shit like this. I mean honestly, couldn't the cops handle this more creatively? Is it really satisfactory to say "well, at least he didn't get beaten up like Rodney King"? Wow, what high standards we hold for our police...as long as you didn't get your head kicked in, they showed "restraint."

I feel the same way about the death penalty. Does a part of me enjoy it when the state fries some murderous troll? Yes. But revenge isn't something a society of laws should base itself on. There is no justice in the death penalty, it's just blood sport. It's not a deterrent, and it doesn't really help anybody "heal," if you mean that word in the sense of "moving on with one's life."

Don't know how I started talking death penalty, but oh well.

comment #91

D.Z. says ...

Jeff: "They revived thoughts of the 1994 Rodney King beating in Los Angeles"

Slight correction. It was 1991. I think two of the cops got convicted in 1994, though. But man, this is the worst abuse of authority on campus since Kent State.

jgh: "The guy first resisted their efforts to take him out of the auditorium in an orderly fashion, then, when the cops decided they had to arrest him (for refusing to be led out) he resisted their efforts to arrest him."

They waited an awfully long time to act...

"I don't understand how people can side with the obnoxious idiot who disrupted the event -- notice the applause from the crowd when the cops first tried to lead him out of the place."

The crowd might not have liked him, but they probably didn't think he was going to be tasered.

"Here's a simple guide: when the police try to remove you from a situation, comply. When the police try to arrest you, comply."

Oh, and be a good sport when they shoot you after you take out your wallet when asked, and when they shove a plunger up your ass. They're just doing their jobs.

Mathew:

"Really stretching to make a point aren't you Jeff? I'm sure the cops checked his ethnic background before tasering him."

Yeah, well, they had no problems keeping Jewish elderly people and black people from voting, either...

BNick: "Even if you think tasering was overboard, you can't claim he didn't give them a reason to rough him up."

Yes I can. He didn't start a fight or pull out a weapon, so he didn't do anything wrong.

"People like this guy (wrongly) fashion themselves as brave dissidents in a society that demands order and obediance."

You do know how this country was founded, right?

Alex: "My first observation is - why are there two cops right next to this kid at the mic? Didn't he start this whole thing by running away from the cops into the event? In that case, the kid is already resisting arrest."

Resisting arrest for what? Being in a public facility?

Roth: "He could have sued the shit out of him right then and there, but honestly, tell me one thing they should have done at that point?"

They should have let Kerry speak?

corey: "damn shame Kerry didn't get zapped when he wouldn't shut up in front of Congress about Vietnam war crimes or when he tossed his medals.Yesterday's radical is this season's Nazi."

Yes, vets who stop other vets from mass-murder are nazis.

Rich: "Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help! I'm being repressed!"

Yeah, those filthy Irish asked for Bloody Sunday.

Monument: "When exactly did parents stop teaching their children decorum, politeness, and respect?"

Yes, why can't they be like Bush, and call his rival an asshole?

"Regardless of your political views, when meeting a United States Senator, Representive, State Governor, or even the President, show some fucking respect."

Yes, because they have no obligation to listen to us, since we don't really live in a democracy.

"What if protesters actually had something intelligent to say? What if they didn't all look like unwashed hippies? What if they actually learned how to debate, work the system, use logic, or speak at a conversational volume?"

Yes, getting out of the war that even people at the top acknowledge is a failure is stupid. Why can't those protesters do something more neat, like having gay sex in bathrooms or shooting someone in the face? And why can't they say something "constructive" like the pundits at Faux News?

"That kid didn't have to be handcuffed, he didn't have to be tasered, he didn't have to be arrested; he asked for it."

And those Freedom Riders asked to be hosed and attacked by dogs, too, huh?

iamjoe: "I am completely for protests, completely for asking people the hard questions. But do it in a way that works;"

Yeah, how dare he use his First Amendment rights?!

Dave: "Hey, if you think our leaders are wrong, vote them out of office and vote new ones in. That's how the system works, and has worked, for a very long time."

You mean back when only rich white males could vote?

"I supported his impeachment, and not because he liked blowjobs, but because he failed to uphold the law."

Reagan failed to uphold the law, too, but I didn't
see you supporting his impeachment.

"And what alleged crime would that be again?"

Violating the War Powers Act, for starters? Violating U.N. laws of aggression?

"Where's the dictatorship? The jackbooted stormtroopers? The insidious fascism? It's not there because it does not exist."

Yes, being extradited to secret prisons for the purpose of torture is common in most democracies.

Walter: "in other news.... Jimmy Carter couldn't say "nuclear" either, yet y'all love his tax-raising, dictator-appeasing, Jew-hating arse"

Yes, he hates Jews, because he wants peace in the Middle East. Brilliant. And Bush has been appeasing the dictators in Saudia Arabia, China, and Equatorial Guinea and raising taxes on the backs of the poor and the middle-class.

"ABC World News Tonight with Karl Rove?"

The networks don't need Republican commentators to
show their blatant rightist views. They're owned by corporations which profit from the war and our ignorance as much as Bush.

"were the Russians, Germans, French, British as well as Clinton lying when they said there were WMDs?"

They said there were, but they didn't start a war over it.

Stephe: "Earlier today I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq. They are joined by British forces. Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors."

But Clinton didn't find anything any more than Bush. Bombing Iraq was just meant to get more pro-war nazis to vote Democrat in 2000.

"The "Bush lied" crowd is insane. Everyone on planet suspected Saddam had WMD."

Except for George Tenet and Colin Powell, and the IAEA, of course...

"Saddam was doing everything he could to hinder the UN inspectors."

Yes, he was being suspicious when he decided to open the place up to them.

"Such a change in Baghdad would take time and effort, Clinton said, adding that his administration would work with Iraqi opposition forces."

That's not the same as declaring war.

"Iraq failed to cooperate with the inspectors and placed new restrictions on them, Clinton said."

How dare he assert his rights as the head of a sovereign nation!

comment #92

Josh Massey says ...

Good lord, did anybody just read all of that? Any of it?

comment #93

transmogrifier says ...

"Good lord, did anybody just read all of that? Any of it?"

I did. Some good points, some irrelevant points, a little too much of the "well, what about YOUR guy" pseudo-argument and straw men. That goes for DZ AND the people he's trying to rebut.

The only problem is that DZ is at the stage where some right-leaning posters use him as their regular "liberals are wacko" example, without really bothering to read what he says, and some left-leaning posters tend to get all embarrassed that someone on their side is out-spoken.

Luckily, both of these types of people are worthless in a debate. If you are so insecure that you think one person on your side reflects badly on you, then you are welcome to wallow in your self-pitying navel-gazing, and if you are the type of person who chooses the most outspoken person to represent every single other person in the group he belongs to, you're too narrow-minded to be useful to anyone.

When Ann Coulter goes all foam-mouthed, it's a reflection of her own psychotic, misanthropic principles, not the "side" she has deigned to attach herself to. When Michael Moore pulls a silly little stunt that turns out to be more abou thim than the issues, that's Moore's problem, not the left. I have particular contempt for those who would want to shut them up just because you are afraid of guilt by association. Grow a pair and be yourself. Fuck Anne. Fuck Mike.

comment #94

BNick says ...

I love the implication by D.Z. that somehow this guy and the founding fathers have a lot in common.

Key difference: The Founding Fathers faced actual tyranny, while this winner faces only imagined tyranny.

And to make matters worse, he's a phony. As soon as the cameras went away, the police report says, he calmed down and told them that they'd just been doing their jobs. Special.

comment #95

D.Z. says ...

BNick: "I love the implication by D.Z. that somehow this guy and the founding fathers have a lot in common."

Yes, the Founding Fathers didn't try to express their grievances to an imperialistic government.

"The Founding Fathers faced actual tyranny, while this winner faces only imagined tyranny."

So being arrested for an imaginary crime isn't the type of tyranny they were against?

"And to make matters worse, he's a phony. As soon as the cameras went away, the police report says, he calmed down and told them that they'd just been doing their jobs."

Source? Even if that's true, it's still an alarm for the rest of us.

Yes,

comment #96

Walter Sobchak says ...

God DAMMIT I love D.Z.!

Seriously.... I LOVE that crazy sonofabitch!

comment #97

Terry McCarty says ...

Actually, before the kid opted for theatrics, he made mention of one of the more interesting lefty books of recent times, Greg Palast's ARMED MADHOUSE. Worth reading whatever your political persuasion.

comment #98

BNick says ...

Source here. He's a phony, and he's done this stuff before:

http://www.starbanner.com/article/20070918/NEWS/70918007/1053/BREAKING_NEWS

comment #99

Rich S. says ...

"Rich: "Come see the violence inherent in the system! Help! I'm being repressed!"

Yeah, those filthy Irish asked for Bloody Sunday."

One of the best non-sequiturs you've ever come up with, D.Z. You do know that I was quoting Monty Python and the Holy Grail, right? It was the first thing I thought of when I watched Jeff's video.

comment #100

BNick says ...

"Bloody Peasant!!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o76WQzVJ434

comment #101

iamanerd says ...

When was the last time you guys were in college? I went to a large, state school like UF, and these aren't rent a cops. These are licensed police officers who carry firearms and tazers. Rent a cops can't carry them. They look bad because 5-6 of them can't carry a guy out in cuffs, so the tazing looks/sounds extra bad. Where I went to school, there were certain free speech areas, but ANYONE could be removed from any building on campus, free speech or not. The guy hijacked the mic, so he was wrong, but the cops didn't handle the situation well either. Kerry was talking and trying to answer the whole time, so all the comparisons to Vietnam and after are a bunch of knee jerk reactions by real assholes on this site making ridiculous comparisons.

comment #102

le corbeau says ...

"The only problem is that DZ is at the stage where some right-leaning posters use him as their regular "liberals are wacko" example, without really bothering to read what he says"

Been there, done that, Trans.

"without really bothering to read what he says... Luckily, both of these types of people are worthless in a debate."

LOL! For open-mindedness, that's right up there with Jeff's frequent statements along the lines of "I'm totally against prejudice, which is why I don't live in the ignorant, mouth-breathing, low-thread count racist hick parts of the country."

comment #103

MAGGA says ...

Phew! I should consider myself lucky then, as I went to schools in countries where there were no cops and free speech was not restricted to specific areas. Though I did study in Paris at the time of the student riots, at which point the police were certainly present, closing down the schools and keeping students away with fire hoses. Scandinavia suddenly feels so... normal..

comment #104

D.Z. says ...

Rich: "One of the best non-sequiturs you've ever come up with, D.Z. You do know that I was quoting Monty Python and the Holy Grail, right?"

Yeah, I know. And considering they were known for non-sequiturs, it's actually appropriate. BTW, that scene was actually meant to be a parody of both the authorities and the protesters.

BNick: "and the officer who actually Tasered Andrew Meyer wrote in the report that Meyer later told police, "You didn't do anything wrong."

That's not the same thing as hearing it from him. But again, that's not the point. Even if he had said that, anyone in his position shouldn't have to worry about being arrested for expressing themselves.

comment #105

iamanerd says ...

It's called disorderly conduct. Under some people's logic on this site, a student should be able to stand up in a Physics class at a public school and go ape shit because it's free speech. No, that's disorderly conduct. Swear at a police officer the next time you get a ticket and see how far free speech gets you. The yelling and way he was asking the questions violated the rules by which that forum was set up. In doing so, he was breaking the law, not simply being a disruption. I teach at a community college, and my students are free to speak in class. However, when we have decided and ruled no talking, like during a test, your "rights" go out the window. Talk during a test, and you fail for cheating and have to leave. You broke the rules. Scream and yell in a public building when screaming and yelling aren't part of the established function, and your ass has to leave. You don't leave when asked, then you are told. You don't leave when told, you get arrested. You don't cooperate fully after you've been arrested, you are resisting. It has nothing to do with the U.S. vs. any other place. It's called following the rules in public places. You yell too much or play your music too loud at home, your neighbors can call the cops. It doesn't matter that you are on your own property. It doesn't matter that this is a large, public school. This jackass is hiding behind rights that he is trampling on with his stunts. He's the fuck up, but so are the uniformed/armed police who can't get a 21 year old kid under control. Any bouncer at a local bar in Gainesville could at least have tossed this nuisance out on his ear. He's pissed at Kerry for talking for two hours, but then he proceeds to ask jackass questions. Ask the election one because it was relevant. Then move the fuck on. Don't attach Kerry because he didn't contest the election. See what contesting got Gore in 2000? What a fucking numbnut.

comment #106

corey3rd says ...

The police brought on the disorderly conduct. The kid was standing there. He did not make an aggressive move at Kerry. he did not run at the senator. Sure they had cut off his microphone, but Kerry was starting to answer the kid's question when the Bulls just pounced on his ass. Does this student not have the right to hear the answer to his question?

The University of Florida really got a lot of great publicity out of having Kerry visit.

if you tell your students in your physics class that gravity is a lie and when they question you, you have the cops jump on their ass - who is in the right?

Kerry stood by and watched that kid get Tasered. He pussed out. He didn't shout, "What the hell are all you people doing!" He just went on with his drone - thus proving once more that he had no business running for president.

comment #107

MathewM says ...

Checked out Andrew Meyer's personal site and he's your basic college, conspiracy theory addled "dude".
http://www.mcdonalds.com/usa/eat/features/dollar.html

comment #108

iamanerd says ...

Senator Kerry telling the police to stop was magically going to stop them? Who the fuck are you dumbasses on this site? The people sitting next to the cops couldn't stop the tazering. The fact that it was being videotaped and audiotaped and John Kerry was there didn't stop it. Those cops gave two shits that it would be on the news and their actions were being videotaped. Clearly the police thought they had the legal ground to subdue the dude.

Sure, they could have waited until he was quiet to put the cuffs on, but they don't have to. This guy was loud in line and before his turn. The instigator basically brought out some sub-par police work.

And the example of a Physics class and gravity being a lie is a fucking insult to anyone who has taught. I don't teach Physics anyway, so my opinion on gravity or knowledge of it don't matter. Why don't we stick to real, applicable examples. He was disorderly the second he didn't respond to the police's request to leave. Tough shit if you don't like it at that moment. That's the fucking law.

Here's a real world example: I had a student text messaging in my college class. Text messaging is not allowed in class. Sure, I'd love students to not text message because it's fucking disrespectful, but I have a policy on the syllabus about it concerning cheating. I can't have students texting questions, receiving text answers, using camera phones to take pictures of departmental tests, etc., so I ban them for cheating purposes because common sense and manners are hard to police. I had a student challenge my policy. I say turn your phone OFF or don't have it. But I also say that as long as I never see or hear you on it, well then that's that. He texted during a test, which he was not done with yet, so he gets a zero on the test. I have to assume he's cheating because there are 23 others (22 students and me) who are playing by the rules. Every other person in that auditorium, including John Kerry was. That guy wasn't. That student verbally challenged my policy, me "giving" him a zero, etc. because he was busted not only using it in class, but also during a test. Tough shit. I don't care if you were texting your grandma on her death bed. A policy was established.

If you don't conform to rules/laws, then you must deal with the consequences. This jackass made a spectacle of himself in a public place. He is subject to the rule of law. You have to leave when you are asked. If not, your ass gets carried out.

comment #109

Josh Massey says ...

"The group marched south on Newell Drive chanting, 'Hey hey, ho ho, police abuse has got to go' and 'No justice, no peace, no Tasers for police.'"

Are you sure they aren't filming PCU II in Gainesville? Good lord, I wish I had been one of those cops. At least I can sit back and laugh at the video, though.

comment #110

christian says ...

OBEY.

CONSUME.

BREED.

OBEY.

comment #111

Walter Sobchak says ...

"LOL! For open-mindedness, that's right up there with Jeff's frequent statements along the lines of "I'm totally against prejudice, which is why I don't live in the ignorant, mouth-breathing, low-thread count racist hick parts of the country."

possible quote of the year...

nice job there, mgmax!

comment #112

D.Z. says ...

iamanerd: "Under some people's logic on this site, a student should be able to stand up in a Physics class at a public school and go ape shit because it's free speech. No, that's disorderly conduct."

But he wasn't being disorderly.

"The yelling and way he was asking the questions violated the rules by which that forum was set up."

There is no wrong way to ask a question. And raising your voice does not equal yelling.

"In doing so, he was breaking the law, not simply being a disruption."

Um, there is no such law on campus, in the city, the state, or in the country. Otherwise, people with Tourette's would be going to jail, too.

"However, when we have decided and ruled no talking, like during a test, your "rights" go out the window."

But that was a venue for dialogue, while your class clearly is not.

"Scream and yell in a public building when screaming and yelling aren't part of the established function, and your ass has to leave."

But he wasn't screaming and yelling.

"You don't leave when asked, then you are told. You don't leave when told, you get arrested."

Why should he leave when he did nothing illegal?

"It has nothing to do with the U.S. vs. any other place."

Because most places arrest you, just for expressing your opinions.

"You yell too much or play your music too loud at home, your neighbors can call the cops."

But that's disturbing the peace, which he was not doing, and which isn't the same as disorderly conduct. Nice try, though.

"It doesn't matter that this is a large, public school. This jackass is hiding behind rights that he is trampling on with his stunts."

Yes, there's a limit to Free Speech. Next, let's ban flag burning.

"Don't attach Kerry because he didn't contest the election."

Why not? His tax dollars are paying for Kerry's job. He has a right to know.

"Here's a real world example: I had a student text messaging in my college class. Text messaging is not allowed in class. Sure, I'd love students to not text message because it's fucking disrespectful, but I have a policy on the syllabus about it concerning cheating. I can't have students texting questions, receiving text answers, using camera phones to take pictures of departmental tests, etc., so I ban them for cheating purposes"

But he wasn't cheating, just chatting.

"I have to assume he's cheating because there are 23 others (22 students and me) who are playing by the rules. Every other person in that auditorium, including John Kerry was. That guy wasn't."

But that's not illegal.

comment #113

Josh Massey says ...

"But he wasn't being disorderly ... But he wasn't screaming and yelling ... But that's disturbing the peace, which he was not doing ..."

Seriously, D.Z. - did you even watch the video? Read any statements from people who were actually there? Every one of your statements is easily refuted.

comment #114

D.Z. says ...

Josh: "Seriously, D.Z. - did you even watch the video? Read any statements from people who were actually there? Every one of your statements is easily refuted."

Yeah I watched the video, but I haven't read the comments. Though even if I did, it wouldn't make what he was doing illegal or disorderly. Disorderly would be if he was starting fights or destroying property, which he was not in either situation.

comment #115

iamanerd says ...

Yo, D.Z., I clearly said that there was a policy in my syllabus about no texting or use of cell phones. If you were in my Lit and Comp classe, I could teach you reading comprehesion. So, no, the guy wasn't chatting; the way the class is set up, and this was in writing, a written syllabus this student SIGNED, it is cheating if the phone is used. It is interesing that my other 132 students this quarter had no problem with the policy, but this guy did. The one guy caught breaking it. Interesting. This kid at Florida, was the ONE person in this forum who broke the rules. Rewatch the fucking video too if you really think that guy wasn't yelling. And, also, if the police ask/tell/whatever you to leave a building you don't own and you don't, it can become trespassing under the law. I only gave the example of disturbing the peace too to show that no, free speech doesn't include being a loudmouth. This guy is a prankster who is now going to cast suspicion on any students, mine included who exercise their rights.

And as I said before, because people have no common decency, I basically have to set up usage of a phone as cheating to get college students (all adults no less) to turn their cellphones off in class. Or to not use them during a test. Why couldn't this guy have just asked, "Since you said you read this book, Mr. Kerry, why didn't you more aggressively contest the 2004 election?" Once he tossed in Skull and Bones and his OPINION that Kerry has some obligation not to concede, I would have told the kid that I'll answer your first question but not the others. I am sure Kerry was probably told by his 20 handlers, including some lawyers, that contesting the election would have ended worse than the 2000 election for Gore.

And yes, when you don't play by the rules, such as cheating in a college course, that by definition becomes a violation of policy. And that basically is the same as illegal. Do you or can you even fucking read? This guy got busted pulling a prank and you'll make him some free speech martyr and trash Kerry in the process? Just state your fucking agenda and don't hide behind anything. And yes, the student was texting to get answers, so I didn't casually bust him for "chatting."

And the tax dollars pay Kerry to be a representative of MA, not answer personal questions about Skull and Bones at a speech in FL. Or to answer questions about an almost 4 year old election. Kerry is paid to represent issues in MA.

I also support flag burning, FYI, because I believe in symbols and symbolic action. I also believe in being practical. This kid in Florida is a perfect example of overstepping the bounds of free speech. And those cops are perfect examples of misuse of force and piss poor training.

And the kid wasn't arrested for expressing his opinions; he was arrested when he didn't comply with the directions of a uniformed police officer. Just so you know, that's against the law and is by definition resisting. You don't have to punch a cop in the face to be resisting. And as I've been saying all along but you haven't been noticing, the police screwed the pooch almost as bad as this student.

Know what the fuck you're talking about before you start piping off. Express your ideology directly instead of hiding behind trite expressions and my words you dumb fuck.

comment #116

iamanerd says ...

And yes, I am ashamed at my horrible grammar and typing in that last post. But not the dumb fuck part. That was right on.

comment #117

DenisHennelly says ...

He was arrested because he showed emotion in public... which is the same reason Howard Dean was taken down by the Democratic establishment when he would have beaten Bush in 2004. We are afraid of emotion in this country and it is allowing the destruction of our constitutional structure. This country was founded by smart people who felt things.

comment #118

le corbeau says ...

Riiiiiiight.

comment #119

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