comment #1

christian says ...

"The secret fo good writing is to begin a sentence not knowing exactly what you're about to put into words,"

hey, wha' fo'?

comment #2

mutinyco says ...

There's nothing more middle-class than quoting Andy Warhol...

comment #3

Joe Leydon says ...

"The secret to good writing is having the brass to begin a sentence with only a half-formed notion -- and certainly without knowing exactly -- what you're about to put into words, but pushing ahead and writing it down anyway, knowing or at least trusting it'll come out right in the end."

No, Jeff: That's the secret to writing a first draft. After you get that out of the way, whether you're Evelyn Waugh or Charles Bukowski, if you have any respect for your craft or your readers, you polish, and then polish some more. Otherwise, you're not a writer. You're just a typist. Or a blogger.

comment #4

Ian Sinclair says ...

Or PT Anderson.

comment #5

Joe Leydon says ...

"I can't write five words but that I change seven." -- Dorothy Parker

comment #6

Joe Leydon says ...

"The best writing is rewriting." -- E. B. White

comment #7

MiraJeffAICN says ...

Hmm... a great topic that could make for a very interesting discussion. While Joe certainly has a point, I'm inclined to follow Jeff's lead on this one. A lot of major film critics make very eloquent arguments about films but after reading their reviews, I still can't decipher whether or not they liked the film. I think most critics wouls suggest that whether or not they liked it is irrelevant. But in general, I think critics are too old and over-intellectualize things rather than approach movies like so many people who go to the movies do- as a form of entertainment. I like stream of consciousness reviews rather than a review in which every word has been slaved over and tinkered with. That's not how audiences discuss movies after seeing them and that's not how people want to read about movies before they go see them. Jeff's on to something here. I'm not quite sure what it is, or even if he know what it is, but just the fact that he posted what he did illustrates which camp he falls in and why we all show up here everyday to read what he has to say. You don't see a lot of major print critics jumping into forums to defend their reviews because if they did, they wouldn't sound nearly as smart as their hoity-toity reviews make them out to be. If you want to review movies for The People, you shouldn't be afraid to be one of The People and approach movies as such.

comment #8

Joe Leydon says ...

But MiraJeffAICN: Here's the big difference between you and me -- You seem to think that most of your readers are not very bright, or at least not very demanding. I don't. In fact, I always assume that most are as smart as me, and many are smarter. And that all of them demand something that is well-reasoned and intelligent, not off-the-cuff and self-indulgent.

comment #9

fnt says ...

An argument for bad writing from an Ain't It Cool news writer. What a shock.

If I wanted a "stream-of-consciousness" review, I'd ask a friend. That's just an excuse for lazy writing. Which, of course, defines Ain't It Cool News and its use of ejaculation as the primary metaphor for enjoyment.

comment #10

fnt says ...

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/05/09

comment #11

christian says ...

"But in general, I think critics are too old and over-intellectualize things rather than approach movies like so many people who go to the movies do- as a form of entertainment."

where to begin? the best art is entertainment. as in shakespeare. good critics should be both audience and analyzer and i'll take wisdom and intelligence over the "so many people" who think of movies as an episode of AMERICAN IDOL.

anyway, you're only justifying your hatred of paragraphs.

comment #12

scooterzz says ...

i can't believe anyone of any age who seriously enjoys intelligent discussion would take seriously anyone who uses as a talking point, 'but in general, i think critics are too old...'----- that was stunning....

comment #13

Bilge says ...

"Downmarket" and "middle-class" don't exactly correlate. Actually, most elite film critics are afraid of seeming middlebrow, not lowbrow. Many of them love to champion supposedly populist entertainment; it's stuff like Merchant-Ivory films they consider toxic (often to their discredit).

At any rate, judging films based on status instead of quality is just plain stupid.

comment #14

Larry says ...

An Interview with S. J. Perelman
Q: "How many drafts of a story do you do?"
A: "Thirty-seven. I once tried doing
thirty-three, but something was lacking,
a certain --- how shall I say? --- je ne sais quoi.
On another occasion, I tried forty-two versions,
but the final effect was too lapidary ---
you know what I mean, Jack?"

comment #15

Nate West says ...

I bet MiraJeff told his H.S. English teacher that he didn't do his term paper because the audiences for terms papers these days reject the hoity-toity nature of footnotes and bibliographies and prefer a pure stream of night-before-the-deadline under-intellectualized "consciousness": "Look, I don't write term papers on Melville's Billy Budd for The Man. I write them for The People. And because I am of The People myself, I am not afraid."

comment #16

T. Holly says ...

Jeff Mira, you of all people know how quickly critics write, so don't suggest they labor over these things too much. It's a muscle. Well's writing muscle is very big and making it look tossed off is actually a highly developed talent. There is such a thing as reading for pleasure. Nuts and bolts reviews, no thanks, and please no thumbing up or down. Thanks god for all the old guard doing it the right way.

For instance, "Death Sentence," (which the editors guild is giving Michael Knue two screenings of), did Justin Chang's review give you any of your "The People" angst.

comment #17

malibugigolo says ...

"there's nothing more middle-class than being afraid to look middle-class."

comment #18

scooterzz says ...

holly seems very hep to wells' very big muscle....

comment #19

malibugigolo says ...

Cercle Munster
in the lux. for all the non babbits on gigolo

comment #20

T. Holly says ...

careful there, he's walking the dog

comment #21

malibugigolo says ...

t. holly- i'll get you a real side car to vienna.

comment #22

malibugigolo says ...

"The best writing is rewriting." -- E. B. White

Yes. I would rewrite if I was like EB and I understood I was trying to find something of merit to actually...say...

thanks for the laugh Stuart Little.

comment #23

malibugigolo says ...

If Roger Avary can be seen as a writer...than I suppose he should be seen as a surfer....

this is the most laughs I've had to start a week in weeks!

thanks!

comment #24

T. Holly says ...

Oh finally, my ticket to paradise.

comment #25

malibugigolo says ...

Wells:

Nabokov suggested that the wise reader reads not with the heart or the mind but with the spine. It is there one experiences the "telltale tingle" that indicates a work is truly great.

comment #26

christian says ...

i'd like to read roger avary writing on film -- his audio commentaries are pretty informed and engaging.

comment #27

malibugigolo says ...

"i'd like to read roger avary writing on film"

Wouldn't he have to write one first?

More laughs.

comment #28

hiviper says ...

I think Jeff was going for Dorothy Parker's "hate writing but love having written" angle here, as opposed to championing sloppy, impulsive writing.

comment #29

malibugigolo says ...

hate writing but love having written

That was John August.

comment #30

scooterzz says ...

and you're taking that nabokov suggestion seriously?!?.....

comment #31

malibugigolo says ...

"Oh finally, my ticket to paradise"

Sorry. My mistake. Eddie Money has them....go luck in El Paso.

comment #32

malibugigolo says ...

nabokov?

whozzzze he!

comment #33

christian says ...

allow me to text my next post in the spirit of the age:

iluvmoviestheyfunifmenothinkeexoxo

comment #34

malibugigolo says ...

And my favorite hotel is on Philharmonikerstrasse.

comment #35

MiraJeffAICN says ...

Believe me, I know how naive and ignorant my above post sounds, but the sad fact is, that's the way shit is going and you're all underestimating yourselves. We, as a whole, are a lot smarter than the average moviegoer, who in general, has absolutely dreadful tastes. That's why a great film that's nominated for a half-dozen Oscars can go almost unseen by the general public. Joe, I know who your audience is and you're perfectly right to assume they are as informed and intelligent as you are, but you have to realize that overall, that is a pretty small percentage of people. I mean, the biggest TV show in the country is American Idol. The Hills is a cultural phenomenon. Two and a Half Men is the most popular sitcom on television. Clearly public viewing habits are a complete joke. I think in general, the non-film-savy public doesn't read reviews anyway, but if they actually did, I don't think they'd want the high-brow intellectualism of The New Yorker. They'd want to be talked to in their own language, which sometimes can be as simple as that movie kicked ass, a phrase you won't see too many critics write. And maybe that isn't engaging with a film but I don't the average Joe Schmoe necessarily goes to a movie to be engages, I think he goes to turn his brain off and sit there and be entertained, and that's why I can't blame some of these studios for making movies for monkeys. And I'm not even talking about shit like Transformers or the Pirates sequels, which are just big-budget visual bonanzas, but the routine, cookie-cutter studio films that audiences never cease to lap up, because they all do what the commercials tell them to while they watch some of those crap TV shows. I'm pretty sure none of what I just said is even debatable. You look at the numbers and it's basically a fact, aside from the occasional phenomenon like a Passion of the Christ or Little Miss Sunshine. Movies about guys getting nailed to a cross, or gay suicidal uncles, or foul-mouther grandpas, aren't generally considered crowdpleasers, they buck the trend, and it's times like those when critics matter and word of mouth from people who know what they're talking about matters, but those are occasions that come few and far between. Give yourselves a little credit guys. Everyone one of us wakes up and goes online to see what Jeff Wells has to say, and whether we agree with him or not, we all go to sleep a little bit film-savvier. And as Jeff can attest, all of American does not come to his site, or other such sites. They choose to remain ignorant and the ones who decide to convert don't run to read Pauline Kael's back catalog, they go lookin for the guy whose gonna break it down in terms they can understand. A critic for beginners essentially. And those critics, including myself if that's what I'm perceived as, have nothing to be ashamed of either.

comment #36

malibugigolo says ...

Wells:

I like what your getting at.

A great essay on writing is by Bertrand Russell:

http://www.solstice.us/russell/write.html

comment #37

christian says ...

too bad the critics here are so old and think too much. boring!

comment #38

scooterzz says ...

malibu--- he's the guy who signed my hc/1st lolita....it's going up on the auction block next month.... (along with vidal, isherwood, miller, mailer. kirkwood, williams......many more)....thanks for asking...

comment #39

scooterzz says ...

mira--
put down the pipe....really....

comment #40

T. Holly says ...

Does anyone have any doubt Jeff Mira is going to be very successful one day?

comment #41

malibugigolo says ...

I was going to throw a nice bon mot at scooter z...and the mire came along...what is that?

comment #42

malibugigolo says ...

Mira:

Terry Rossio does not read his blog. Relax.

Watch Bunuel's lastest out of DVD The Milky Way.

Again.Relax.

comment #43

malibugigolo says ...

"too bad the critics here are so old and think too much. boring!"

Rick Moranis,

No need to be bitter.

comment #44

scooterzz says ...

oops...'mira'.... a typo.... do your 'bon mot - ist'.....(i'm no stranger to pain)....

comment #45

christian says ...

i was hilarious in STREETS OF FIRE.

comment #46

Mr. Kockum says ...

This writing business. Pencils and what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.

comment #47

Reel1 says ...

Christian to Mira:
"anyway, you're only justifying your hatred of paragraphs"

very good!

comment #48

gruver1 says ...

Wells to Leydon: Joe, Joe, Joe....my saying at the end of that sentence "knowing or at least trusting it'll come out right in the end" is, I thought, a fairly obvious allusion to the rewriting process. I do so much rewriting it pours out of my ears. The reason the daily out put of eight to ten stories per day takes me six or seven rather than four or five hours per day is due to rewriting.

comment #49

Joe Leydon says ...

"They'd want to be talked to in their own language, which sometimes can be as simple as that movie kicked ass, a phrase you won't see too many critics write." -- MiraJefAICN, Hollywood Elsewhere, 9/3/07

"Boldly kicking ass like no ass has been kicked before, 'Kiss of the Dragon' is a slick, straight-ahead action-thriller that marks a small step back and two bounding leaps forward for toplined Jet Li." -- Joe Leydon, Variety, 7/5/01

"Appropriately for the remake of a '70s cult-fave action-thriller, 'Assault on Precinct 13' comes off as a purposefully retro slam-bang melodrama with an old-school approach to kicking ass, drawing blood and taking lives." -- Joe Leydon, Variety, 1/13/05

"The teaming of action stars Jet Li and Jason Statham may raise audience expectations for a lean, mean ass-kicking machine, but 'War' turns out to be a flabby and formulaic programmer." -- Joe Leydon, Variety, 8/24/07

comment #50

James Rocchi says ...

I think your point's a good one, Jeff -- it evoked the old line about how Manny Farber "played both brows against the middle." Yes, you should shoot from the hip with a visceral reaction when writing about a film, but then try to explain that reaction through writing, and re-writing, through your thought process.

As for MiraJeff's defense of the AICN 'style,' AICN doesn't qualify as 'lowbrow' -- it's more like nobrow, just a bulging occipital ridge pushed out by an over-excited adrenal gland bloated with sugar rush and junk.

Then again, I laughed at Balls of Fury, so what the hell do I know?

comment #51

carla kolchak says ...

Joe's argument is winning this one handily, IMO. In fact, if I may say so, it's kicking ass.

comment #52

MathewM says ...

It's hard to argue what exactly makes for good writing in today's world of blogs. Jeff Wells writes a blog everyday. I've never read any of his scripts but I assume based on his blog that they are of at least good quality. However part of 'good' writing in the traditional sense is editing. I'm a part time video editor and I feel it's much like writing. First you lay out your rough draft and then you go in and start chopping away to form something that is entertaining for your target audience to finish. Pretty simple.

comment #53

Joe Leydon says ...

But seriously: I would beware of any blanket statements about what "the people" (or, as Carl Sandburg might say, "the people yes") might want or not want when they read film criticism. I have written for trade and mainstream newspapers for 30 years, and each publication (including Variety) has made it easy for readers to access me -- either through e-mails, letters or direct phone calls -- to express their comments on what I have written. I was on TV at an NBC affiliate for four years, on a Houston rock radio station for a year, and on-line at MSNBC.com for two years, and I've had my own blog for over a year. Once again, each of these outlets enabled/enables readers/viewers easy access to me. I say all of this not to brag -- well, OK, not only to brag -- but to tell you that anyone who says "people" only want this, that or the other thing from a review is at best naieve, and at worst a fool. Jeez, there have been times when a single review has generated complaints that (a) I gave away too much of the plot, (b) I didn't explain enough of the plot, (c) I should keep my opinion to myself, because "people" just want to know what a movie is about, (d) I shouldn't write about cinematography and editing, because "people" don't care about that, and (e) I should just say how many stars I would rate the movie and leave it at that, because "people" don't want to know too much about what happens in the movie.

And by the way: A lot more "people" than you might think -- including people who aren't "old" -- would really be upset if I used the word "ass" in a review. No kidding.

comment #54

Hallick says ...

"The secret to good writing is having the brass to begin a sentence with only a half-formed notion -- and certainly without knowing exactly -- what you're about to put into words, but pushing ahead and writing it down anyway, knowing or at least trusting it'll come out right in the end."

I don't think that's the secret. It's one of the good starting points, where you try to write something without it hitting the censor in your head that blocks offensive, embarassing or downright confusing thoughts.

But the real secret to good writing is good reading (and asking yourself questions like, "am I already getting bored just scanning this thing for typos?"). You also need to walk away from the stuff long enough to lose your buzz so you can come back and look at what you wrote with a clear spine, if I might use malibugigolo's Nabokov anecdote. Sadly, a lot of writing can wind up coyote ugly the next morning too.

comment #55

T. Holly says ...

Joe, you're writing makes me think, but it has too many unnecessary words, and sadly, I'm afraid does more to prove MiraJeff's point than put it to rest. "Programmer?" -- that must be a Variety term. I'm an avid Variety review reader, love 'em. AICN's "Hey there, me here" is like a home schooled kid's idea of cool.

comment #56

Joe Leydon says ...

T. Holly: A word to the wise -- if you're going to criticize someone's writing ability, even in the informal environment of a blog, you should know the difference between "your" and "you're." Otherwise, you make many readers think you're an ignoramus whose opinion on that particular subject is meaningless. Trust me: Been there, done that, caught hell.

comment #57

Joe Leydon says ...

P.S. Too many words? Like, too many notes?

comment #58

Ian Sinclair says ...

Well, I have never written journalism or criticism as they have never held much appeal for me, but as a longtime published writer of fiction in various media (I was 15 when I sold my first script and I sold my latest work last week) the advice I had (from the late English novelist Rosemary Sutcliffe) has held true: write your last sentence first; your second sentence before your first; don't tell anyone a word about what you're writing until you have finished a third draft; write something you would like to read. To this I would add my favourite writing quote, from H. Beam Piper: "the purpose of fiction is the creation of a small, furry animal that will break your heart."

comment #59

Joe Leydon says ...

And when my students ask me what they should write to guarantee they'll make a lot of money, I always respond: Ransom notes.

comment #60

Ian Sinclair says ...

You are obviously far more valued at your college than we knew, Joe. How much did the faculty have to pony up for your safe return?

comment #61

christian says ...

if somebody were to make a film out of this thread, i would insist that peter cook be revived to play ian sinclair in suspender wearing, ink well sloshing, pale faced bitchy splendor.

comment #62

T. Holly says ...

Joe, your writing IS like Mozart, but there are too many unnecessary words, however, you've gotten better over time, from '01 to '05 to '07.

comment #63

Joe Leydon says ...

Christian: Can I get Richard Dreyfuss to play me? Please? Because Richard Harris is, well, dead.

comment #64

christian says ...

only if you talk superfast like dreyfuss circa studio 54 in THE GOODBYE GIRL.

comment #65

Joe Leydon says ...

And I don't. Like. The panties. Hanging. On. The rod.

comment #66

christian says ...

dreyfuss 76 is a lock for joe leydon!

comment #67

T. Holly says ...

Like no ass. Has. Been kicked. Before.

comment #68

Joe Leydon says ...

I will kick. No ass. Before. Its time.

comment #69

carla kolchak says ...

Okay, I realize this is totally anally retentive of me, but I believe the line is "I don't like the panties drying on the rod." :-)

comment #70

Ian Sinclair says ...

MovingPictureBlog stinks. And Joe Leydon is the stinkee.

comment #71

christian says ...

or perhaps sinclair could be portrayed with a revolving set of actors ala I'M NOT THERE.

for the above post sinclair was played by joe besser. ya big silly.

comment #72

Ian Sinclair says ...

I was paraphrasing one of Elliot Garfield's lines, Christian, as he quotes from a newspaper's review of the play-within-the-movie: " The Times put it most succinctly: "Richard the Third" stinks. And Elliot Garfield is the stinkee."

comment #73

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

Anyone read these postings from Ian and imagine him sitting completely upright at his computer (cushion under the keyboard to avoid carpal tunnel, natch) with his pinky finger extended from the cup of tea he's sipping and crumpet he's munching? Briefly burrowed frow as he reads the insults slung his way from every direction, until a lightbulb goes off in this preppy twit's head as he comes up with his next response. Giggling to himself at his own posh "cleverness", he fires off a post responding "brutally" to his attacker (but not too brutally because passive voice Ian is fond of). "Oooooh what a zinger," pushing his spectacles (monocle?) up with his middle finger and tongue flicking at his poorly-kept British incisors. A high-pitched squeal ensues as he looks out his window and sees his 16 year old "croquet mate" is home from uni, and the shade of his pasty thighs look quite delectable against his khaki brown shorts.

I dunno, maybe it's just me.

comment #74

Joe Leydon says ...

Wouldn't I be the stinker? And the reader be the stinkee?

comment #75

christian says ...

appy-polly-loggies, ian. i didn't get the reference. but now that we know who the real TGG fans are, i propose a re-make starring you and joe as played by various revolving stars.

you want a piece of this blockbuster, don murphy?

comment #76

Joe Leydon says ...

Was The Goodbye Girl the last decent movie in which Nicol Williamson has appeared?

comment #77

Ian Sinclair says ...

Joe, don't debate me on this: I have a lawyer acquaintance downtown.

comment #78

Joe Leydon says ...

No, I'm just curious. Jeez, I can remember seeing his Hamlet and being convinced he was destined for greatness. And now? I think the last movie I saw him in was Spawn.

comment #79

Ian Sinclair says ...

He's wonderful actor but he drinks and has a hell of a temper: people don't like to work with him.

comment #80

Joe Leydon says ...

Didn't he actually stab someone on stage while doing I Hate Hamlet?

comment #81

christian says ...

joe, you forget his iconic performance as merlin in EXCALIBUR, the best sword and magik epic ever.

"like...wow, like lightning!"

comment #82

Joe Leydon says ...

Christian: Whoops, you're right. I somehow got it into my head that Excalibur was released BEFORE Goodbye Girl.