comment #1

D.Z. says ...

I liked 300, but there's no way in hell Watchmen will work, unless it's at least 3 hours.

comment #2

Reedyb says ...

You know, you may hate comic books, but Watchmen is pretty good and has an excellent pay off in a time when you would think that pay offs don't work anymore.

I recently re-read it and discovered, to my surprise, that while some of the ideas have been co-opted, the major plot points and the shock of the new remains.

So cheer up, Jeffrey.

comment #3

Buzz Fledderjohn says ...

My friends made me read Watchmen with all the usual "It's the greatest comic book in the world" talk and the like. I couldn't finish it. I got around the halfway point and went "fuck it". I don't want to see another superhero thing ever again, and this is no exception.

comment #4

Ian Sinclair says ...

I do not read comic books any longer, but I made an exception for WATCHMEN, which is just terrific: filled with great dialogue, vivid characters with a wonderful plot. It fully deserves its place in the New York Times "100 Greatest Novels." How on earth a two-hour movie is going to do it justice I have no idea, though I am glad to note it is going to be R rated.

comment #5

Rich S. says ...

Donkeys must be flying, because I find myself agreeing with D.Z. again. This would work much better in a miniseries format. Plus, I'm in the minority in that I did not care for the ending much at all. I thought it was a disappointment after the terrific stuff that led up to it.

Still, I'm looking forward to it since at least Snyder has the cojones to tackle it. He may not be a perfect director, but you can tell he puts every dime on the screen.

I am also happy to see that it's rated R, although I seriously doubt that Crudup will agree to Dr. Manhattan's wardrobe.

comment #6

jackkerouac says ...

Jeff- why do you bother to post info about movies if you are then just going to dismiss it off-hand, as if it's worthy of your time or thought.
I'm no comic book geek, (which, by the way, is not a far cry off from a movie geek), but 'Watchmen' is a true work of art - both in terms of comics and literature, and deserving of respect.

I will say, however, that I do have my doubts about it turned successfully into a movie.

comment #7

The Winchester says ...

Even though I strongly disagree with the fact that Wells is dismissing this movie (given the nature of what the final plot is at the end, and how it's resolved), that lime sherbet in pesto jars thing was pretty damn funny.

comment #8

Crow T Robot says ...

Snyder, Nolan and Greengrass are the only studio directors in this decade doing new things. Everyone else is just treading creative water. 300, which I wasn't crazy about initially, actually gets better on each viewing.

comment #9

christian says ...

"Snyder, Nolan and Greengrass are the only studio directors in this decade doing new things."

especially synder's original DAWN OF THE DEAD and greengrass's unique sequel to bourne.

comment #10

D.Z. says ...

Rich: "Donkeys must be flying, because I find myself agreeing with D.Z. again. This would work much better in a miniseries format."

That's what Gilliam said, too.

Anyway, I'm ok with Watchmen, but other than being a "tribute" to the history of comics up until that point, I didn't find myself invested in the characters or Alan Moore's "biting" satire of Ron and Dick. I honestly don't see the box office potential for it. V did better-than-average, and that was only after changing the location from Neo-Thatcher England to post-911 England with an American political system in its place. Watchmen would have to change the setting from Afghanistan to Iran, might even have to tone down the "camp" aesthetic of the characters' outfits just to appeal to today's comic book movie audience. There's also no guarantee that they'd see it, anyway, since they don't exhibit special powers. Seriously, this could end up being Snyder's Dune.

comment #11

Rich S. says ...

D.Z.,

It's my understanding that they are setting this movie in 1985, so while it will be an allegory about today's political situation, the transplant to Iraq/Iran won't be necessary.

The Moore work I would love to see brought to the screen is Miracleman/Marvelman. What if Captain Marvel really existed - with all the Nietzschen connotations that would have. I don't think it will ever happen, though.

comment #12

Arran says ...

DZ's actually talking sense.

Fucking hell.

comment #13

jackkerouac says ...

"Even though I strongly disagree with the fact that Wells is dismissing this movie (given the nature of what the final plot is at the end, and how it's resolved), that lime sherbet in pesto jars thing was pretty damn funny."

The Winchester: Wells has no idea what this movie is about, including the ending and how it's resolved. He is and will continue to dismiss it based on the fact that it comes from a 'comic book'.

I agree with you, though- that line is funny.

comment #14

Ian Sinclair says ...

The polite response to DZ's post is that he hasn't read WATCHMEN. The not-so-polite one is that he is a clueless cretin. It's Vietnam not Afghanistan, Dr Manhattan, who is blue, can duplicate his body, fly to mars, kill with the power of his thought and doesn't wear a costume at all. Oh, and the "American political system" in V For Vendetta is fascism. I guess I missed that election.

comment #15

chicagodad says ...

For those who dismiss it out of hand, Watchmen probably tackles and deals with most if not all of the issues that make you dismiss comics to begin with.

I'm excited someone's tackling it, and am interested to see what elements are retained.

I can definitely see the central plot as a long-ish movie, but the strength of the original work is that it genuinely is perfect for the medium, and the medium is perfect for it.

Comics is really the ONLY format where all of the elements can come together and pull off what they do. The prose elements and "primary source" materials, the visual elements, etc.

SPOILER-ish Below:

As far as the twists, I'm far more disappointed in the fact that the Rorschach reveal will be spoiled rather than the larger plot reveal.

comment #16

colby says ...

Damn it Wells, put up a spoiler warning before you ruin the plot of the movie!

comment #17

chicagodad says ...

Actually, the conflict that is erupting at the time of the main storyline is Afghanistan. The Vietnam stuff is all flashback.

comment #18

Dan Revill says ...

This isn't Russia. Is this Russia? This isn't Russia.

I'm sorry, I forgot, what were we talking about?

Okay, so I bought the Watchmen earlier this year. I still haven't finished it. I read a part here and there, then put it down. It's good, but I don't see how Snyder is going to make it into a 2 hour movie.

comment #19

MilkMan says ...

If you don't know that you live in a Fascist World, let alone a Fascist country, then you don't know shit about America and you don't know shit about Fascism. Democracy is a night time story for children. Wake up. The inability to grasp the current situation is getting old. No one's buying the schtick anymore. "We live in the best system in the world." Have a good time snacking on your shit sandwich, friend.

comment #20

chicagodad says ...

But Ronnie isn't in it. Dick is still prez in '85. He uses the support garnered by the ongoing domination of the Soviets (thanks to Dr Manhattan)to engineer the repeal of the 22nd amendment.

Yeah, I've read it a few times. I'm a nerd. it's what I do.

comment #21

Sean says ...

"The polite response to DZ's post is that he hasn't read WATCHMEN. The not-so-polite one is that he is a clueless cretin. It's Vietnam not Afghanistan,"

No, actually, the Russians are invading Afghanistan in the present once Dr. M leaves the planet. As they actually did in real life, but at a later time.

"Dr Manhattan, who is blue, can duplicate his body, fly to mars, kill with the power of his thought and doesn't wear a costume at all."

I believe the campy costumes he was talking about were Nite Owl and the woman whose name escapes me. Oh, and almost certainly Ozymondias.

"Oh, and the "American political system" in V For Vendetta is fascism. I guess I missed that election."

It is accurate to say that the filmmakers updated it from a take on the fascist implications of Thatcher in the '80's to discuss the fascist inplications of Bush in the '00's, though.

I mean, whether you agree with their political interpretation or not, that is explicitly what they did.

comment #22

Arran says ...

Yeah! No way the current administration could be construed as fascist in any way. Nope. Nosiree, Bob.

comment #23

le corbeau says ...

"If you don't know that you live in a Fascist World, let alone a Fascist country, then you don't know shit about America and you don't know shit about Fascism. Democracy is a night time story for children. Wake up. The inability to grasp the current situation is getting old. No one's buying the schtick anymore. "We live in the best system in the world." Have a good time snacking on your shit sandwich, friend."

You don't know what fascism is! Fascism is a walk in the fucking park compared to what we're really living in! Good luck eating your Post Toasties from Hell under the nightmarish bootheel of uber-total nightmare hellishness we're really in and you're too dumb to recognize when it fucks you in the cortex and shits out your cerebellum!

comment #24

MilkMan says ...

Mgmax: If I send you 60 bucks can you score me some Purple Haze the next time you visit your connection?

comment #25

The Movie Man says ...

I know Jeff would never admit that the source material here is pretty sharp and impressive, but I don't blame his reluctance with the film version. I liked Snyder's Dawn remake more than I ever thought I would, but 300 was boring, macho, homophobic crap.

How does one go from 300 to Watchmen anyway? That's a ridiculous gulf in sensibilities. Snyder has me curious, I'll give him that.

comment #26

Fassler says ...

Shut up, Jeff. Did you even READ Watchmen? There's a reason why it's on the Time's 100 best novels of the 20th century list. In terms of its scale and psychological depth of character it's comparable to Moby Dick (which is the work Moore was trying to emulate most when he wrote it). Do you have to be so goddamn snarky all the time if a movie isn't independent or directed by Michael Mann?

comment #27

D.Z. says ...

Ian: "Dr Manhattan, who is blue, can duplicate his body, fly to mars, kill with the power of his thought and doesn't wear a costume at all."

He only uses his power sparingly, though. Most of the characters are modeled after the ones in Batman and Punisher.

"Oh, and the "American political system" in V For Vendetta is fascism."

If you're referring to the comic, it's more like totalitarianism with some remnants of Nazi Germany thrown in for good measure. In the movie, it's more like the country being run by FOX News with a Guantanamo-like persecution of gays thrown in for good measure.

chicago: "But Ronnie isn't in it. Dick is still prez in '85."

Yes, but Moore's making obvious allusions to Ron by placing the story in that year and time.

Mgmax: "You don't know what fascism is! Fascism is a walk in the fucking park compared to what we're really living in!"

So the people held in our secret prisons are doing better than the people under Pinochet and Franco?

Movie: "...but 300 was boring, macho, homophobic crap."

It's only that way on the surface, but it's a lot more complex than the average war movie.

Fassler: "Shut up, Jeff. Did you even READ Watchmen? There's a reason why it's on the Time's 100 best novels of the 20th century list."

Is it because TIME and DC are owned by the same company?

comment #28

Ian Sinclair says ...

He meant the New York Times which is owned by the New York Times Company, and so is innocent of your charges of nepotism.

comment #29

jeffmcm says ...

How the %&#* does it work for DZ to be an obsessive ultra-liberal scold and yet like 300, the most obvious piece of pro-war agitprop released to movie theaters all year long?

comment #30

BurmaShave says ...

christian, original or not, BLOODY SUNDAY, UNITED 93, and THE BOURNE SUPREMACY stand as some of the best films of the decade. And Zak Snyder has a tremendous eye.

comment #31

Ogami Itto says ...

"How the %&#* does it work for DZ to be an obsessive ultra-liberal scold and yet like 300, the most obvious piece of pro-war agitprop released to movie theaters all year long?"

He is large and he contains multitudes...?

comment #32

nemo says ...

My favorite thing about those behind the scenes photos is the Jackie Kennedy look-alike with the early 60s Jackie hair in the early 60s Jackie shift wearing Uggs.

comment #33

Ogami Itto says ...

I'll be happy with the movie as long as Rorschach gets to tell his story about the abducted girl to the prison psychologist.

comment #34

D.Z. says ...

jeff: "How the %&#* does it work for DZ to be an obsessive ultra-liberal scold and yet like 300, the most obvious piece of pro-war agitprop released to movie theaters all year long?"

It's not inherently pro-war, though. The Spartans didn't win, and thus all their flexing and killing crippled babies was for nothing. In most American war movies-including Full Metal Jacket-the white guys usually kill the darkies or the Eurotrash without lifting a finger. In this film, the Spartans are clearly out of their element, and don't even try to pretend otherwise.

comment #35

Ian Sinclair says ...

Ogami, here is a fan-made version of that WATCHMEN scene. Of course, in the novel the psychiatrist is African-American.

http://www.watchmencomicmovie.com/061307-the-abyss-gazes-also.php

comment #36

jeffmcm says ...

DZ, this is pretty good evidence that you don't actually watch the movies you talk about. The Spartans clearly do win at the end of the film, which represents the final victory over the Persians at the battle of Plataea, 479 BC. They lose the battle only because they're sold out by physical degenerates, but they win the war. The movie argues that war against a barbaric enemy is both necessary and honorable- and above all, cool. You obviously don't understand Full Metal Jacket either, (which is old news), in which American soldiers are ravaged by the Vietnamese and win the battle, but lose their humanity in the process.

I don't mind dumb people, but people like you who are so willfully, constantly, incessantly ignorant are the scourge of humanity. I mean it. You literally represent, in your own pathetic little internet-centric way, the worst of the human race.

comment #37

D.Z. says ...

"They lose the battle only because they're sold out by physical degenerates, but they win the war."

No, the other Greeks win the war for them. Again, whether or not they were sold out, they couldn't possibly beat a horde that huge with only 300 soldiers, and they knew it, but they chose death over common sense.

"The movie argues that war against a barbaric enemy is both necessary and honorable- and above all, cool."

It argues those things, but it clearly contradicts that argument with the results they use to achieve their success. The Spartans are clearly not much more respectable fighters than the Persians. All they care about are results-not strategy, diplomacy, or even tolerance-which is why they end up losing.

"You obviously don't understand Full Metal Jacket either, (which is old news), in which American soldiers are ravaged by the Vietnamese"

Actually, it looks like they lose a couple of soldiers, but they still take care of business fairly easily.

"and win the battle,"

If you weren't born during that period, and you looked to the film for history, you'd believe the soldiers won the war, not just the battle. So fuck Kubrick for giving more credibility to the "We could have won" crowd!

"but lose their humanity in the process."

Whether or not they lose their humanity isn't really the point, because they're still "normal", compared to that one fat guy at the beginning of the film. The message you really get from FMJ isn't that war is bad or wrong, but that some people just can't take it.

comment #38

chicagodad says ...

Actually, DZ, the characters are not based on Superman, Batman, or the Punisher.

Originally, the series was going to use the characters from Charlton Comics that DC had acquired around that time. However, DC decided that they were viable for new projects, and Moore and Gibbons instead created characters based on them:

Comedian: Peacemaker
Rorschach: The Question
Nite-Owl: Blue Beetle
Dr Manhattan: Captain Atom
Ozymandias: Peter Cannon, Thunderbaolt
Silk Spectre: Nightshade, although she owes more to the DC character Black Canary

And yes, there are Batman/Superman similarities, but since those are 2 of the basically 5 superhero archtypes, that can be said about any character.

The Punisher wasn't even around when Peacemaker was created, and the Punisher certainly didn't have the geopolitical bent that Peacemaker and The Comedian do.

And Moore placed the story in the mid-80's because it came out in that era. It certainly helped with the alternate reality feel to know it was supposed to be contemporary

comment #39

chicagodad says ...

On 300, I think Miller's fascination with the Spartans actually reflects more of his fascination with sacrifice, of people that basically give up a lot or all of their humanity for a cause.

It was glossed over quite a bit in the adaptation, but the theme is all over the place in the Sin City stories as well.

As far as Full Metal Jacket, the message I got from that film was that every human being is basically a a small step away from being a complete piece of shit, and sometimes, we give each other a push.

comment #40

storymark says ...

I'm a pretty hard-core liberal. And I liked 300. Who ever said that a movie must conform to one's politics in order for a person to enjoy it? That's rediculous.

comment #41

Ogami Itto says ...

"Actually, DZ, the characters are not based on Superman, Batman, or the Punisher.

Originally, the series was going to use the characters from Charlton Comics that DC had acquired around that time. However, DC decided that they were viable for new projects, and Moore and Gibbons instead created characters based on them:"

I'm glad you pointed this out to D.Z. I was tempted, but couldn't remember what Charlton characters the Comedian and Silk Spectre corresponded to.

What Superman, Batman, and the Punisher have to do with WATCHMEN is beyond me...?

comment #42

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

"Whether or not they lose their humanity isn't really the point, because they're still 'normal', compared to that one fat guy at the beginning of the film."

Is this excerpt taken from your critical overview of Kubrick that you submitted to Film Comment? Seriously, if you think that losing their humanity isn't really the point of FMJ, then either a) haven't seen it, b) didn't understand it, c) are an ignorant jackass, or d) all of the above. Hmm, yet again, I'mma go with d.

D.Z., you're an idiot.

D.Z., you're a fucking idiot.

D.Z., stop posting gibberish you fucking idiot.

Thanks!

comment #43

D.Z. says ...

Citizenkane: "Seriously, if you think that losing their humanity isn't really the point of FMJ, then either a) haven't seen it, b) didn't understand it, c) are an ignorant jackass, or d) all of the above."

If it had anything to do with losing your humanity, then the rest of the soldiers would lose it like the fat guy. But all they do is go back home and "win" the war. Forrest Gump had a more accurate portrayal of 'Nam, and that was a feel-good movie!