comment #1

Gabriel says ...

Wow. At first, this looked like a lame family-fare indulgence that I would have been more than happy to ignore. Now I almost want to see this movie just to get a look at what is making people so fucking hateful towards a once-beloved comedian.

comment #2

PastePotPete says ...

Man, the guy makes one lousy cg kids movie and suddenly he's satanic? Or even worse, the new Chevy Chase? People need to get a grip.

comment #3

le corbeau says ...

You know, the virtue of the TV show was that Seinfeld was probably the least dominant star of a sitcom since John Amos said screw it to Good Times. Yes, he represented the smug, satisfied suburban white guy point of view-- but all around him ethnic neuroses were bubbling. Larry David had him outnumbered three to one on his own show. Bee Movie gives us Seinfeld without Elaine, Kramer and George-- no wonder it seems thin by comparison.

comment #4

Dirty Harry says ...

Oops, sorry. I was looking up "hyperbole" in the online dictionary and it linked me here...

Carry on.

comment #5

CanCan says ...

Suprised Jeff hasn`t put a link for "Seinfeld rips into Larry King":

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/showbiz/2007/11/02/sot.lkl.seinfeld.canceled.cnn

comment #6

berkguru says ...

Just watched Bee Movie with my 3.5 year old.

I was thoroughly underwhelmed.

comment #7

Larry says ...

This is the kind of drivel that makes you wonder how Rosenbaum has any reputation at all.

First, it's mindless. Anyone can take any little thing he doesn't like try to blow it up into something emblematic. You could say something equally stupid about life in America by claiming the endless sneering of someone like Rosenbaum, or Wells for that matter, has meaning beyond their petty beliefs and signifies something awful about our national character, except it doesn't.

Second, it's wrong. Seinfeld and Larry David created a show that was mostly about making people laugh. They did a great job. Other people did good jobs at making us laugh during the same period through other means, by the way.

Third, it's unoriginal. Rosenbaum has made the exact same point about Seinfeld years ago. It wasn't smart then, but at least it wasn't second-hand.

I haven't seen Bee Movie yet. I might get around to it, but good or bad, it won't change what Seinfeld was, or is, as a TV star and comedian, and I strongly doubt it'll tell me anything about what it means to be an American.

comment #8

Ogami Itto says ...

"Wow. At first, this looked like a lame family-fare indulgence that I would have been more than happy to ignore. Now I almost want to see this movie just to get a look at what is making people so fucking hateful towards a once-beloved comedian."

Lemme see, Seinfeld's rich, successful, has a beautiful wife, and a seemingly great life. I wonder why (some) people would hate him?

comment #9

George Prager says ...

Ron Rosenbaum is a Long Island native who once wrote an interesting New York Times magazine piece about the Long Island underbelly during the height of the Amy Fisher mania. Then he became a columnist for the New York Observer and became unhinged, writing obsessively about Murray Kempton's hot Buddhist daughter, Mira Sorvino's accent in Mighty Aphrodite (he didn't like it, said it insulted prostitutes--he must know a lot of prostitutes), Brenda Blethyn's accent in Secrets and Lies (he looooovvvved it), a sucky speech Stephen Breyer once gave after he became a Supreme Court Justice, and various other subjects that were only interesting to him. Now he's retired to Pajamas Media, where a lot of aging, bitter, angry, running on empty for years bleeding ponytail pundits go to expire. Naturally, he is jealous of Seinfeld. Of course Bee Movie probably sucks, but Ron Rosenbaum sucks harder.

comment #10

Craptastic says ...

CanCan,

Thanks for posting that link. Its about time someone called King on the fact that he's the worst interviewer of all time.

comment #11

le corbeau says ...

Ron Rosenbaum's Explaining Hitler is one of the best history/philosophy books of the past 30 years.

comment #12

D.Z. says ...

The thing about Seinfeld was that the show originally came out during a time when the comedians-as-stars trend was dying out, and as a result, the series didn't really become big until the mid-90s. But that success mostly had to do with the success of "Friends". And by that time, comedy shows were trying to be edgier, and Seinfeld was no exception[*cough* Susan's death and bubble boy episode *cough*]. So it ironically crashed and burned sooner when it was popular than when it was unpopular, and probably hurt Jerry's career in the process. Audiences can't disassociate him from the show, because that's all he had by the end. His material wasn't bad, but the sitcom ended up overshadowing it. And playing a talking bee comes off like a step down for him, especially considering the CG talking animal gimmick died last year.

comment #13

Leonardcoenbrothers says ...

D.Z. are you claiming that the Seinfeld show owed much of its success to Friends? Or did I read that wrong? If that's what you're saying you don't really know what you're talking about.

comment #14

rocco says ...

Leonard, you're mistake was reading Helter Zelter's entire post...after two sentences I knew it was him and skipped to you, then had to go back just to confirm that utter nonsense about Seinfeld owing its success to Friends.

comment #15

Craptastic says ...

D.Z., that explanation of why Seinfeld was popular is idiotic.

That is all.

comment #16

D.Z. says ...

Why is it idiotic? No one in the 18-35 demo was watching NBC until Friends came along; and placing Seinfeld right after it really saved it from being a series with niche appeal.

comment #17

Leonardcoenbrothers says ...

D.Z., to a large extent Friends would not have existed without the success of Seinfeld. Your chronology is screwed up.

comment #18

drgogol says ...

1) Jerry Seinfeld is a guy from Massapequa who wishes he was from the Five Towns. If you need that translated for you, you'll never understand, but if not, you'll never look at Seinfeld the same way again.

2) Seinfeld's final episode was a huge national event....but Frank Sinatra died the same day (you can look it up) and wiped Seinfeld off the front pages. The difference between true superstardom and a pop culture flash-in-the-pan is staggering.

comment #19

Ogami Itto says ...

And playing a talking bee comes off like a step down for him, especially considering the CG talking animal gimmick died last year.

RATATOUILLE (2007)
Worldwide Gross: $553,537,364

comment #20

Rothchild says ...

Little known fact, Seinfeld is actually a big hit because Lost occurs on an island, and the anti-island demographic found the NY based locations of Seinfeld much more soothing and therapeutic. Kevin Reilly was going to cancel the show until halfway through the second season of Lost. But because Heroes is in the shitter, Seinfeld may actually be canceled due to the unexpectdly low sales of the DVDs in recent weeks. The fires in California were also a factor. James Cameron backpacks hula hoop AC/DC.

comment #21

le corbeau says ...

"1) Jerry Seinfeld is a guy from Massapequa who wishes he was from the Five Towns. If you need that translated for you, you'll never understand"

I feel the same way when I tell someone I'm from Kansas and they ask if I'm from Topeka, and I have to explain that I'm from Wichita, and that people from Topeka only wish they were from Wichita, and that people from distant places like Nebraska or Missouri can never truly appreciate what it is to be a Topekan looking at the glittering jewel, the bedizened strumpet, the wanton Jezebel that is Wichita, knowing that all that glory and pomp could be theirs, but for an accident of birth, which has placed them in Kansas's third largest metro area rather than its second, and that the wealth and majesty can never truly be theirs to own, only to rent as they whiz through on K-54 past the gleaming automobiles of Scholfield Bros., past the shining lights of Towne East Square, past the Rax Roast Beef and the Grandy's, things which others know as their birthright, striding the earth with the casual, careless cruelty of the Wichitan heedless of the desires and deepfelt sadness which is the lot of the Topekan, trapped neither in wealthy, comfortable Johnson County nor vibrant, electric Wichita but stuck, like a Permian fossil in amber, in this living way station of dreams and desires which the outsider, with his casual talk of St. Louis and Omaha, can never truly comprehend.

comment #22

D.Z. says ...

Leonard: "D.Z., to a large extent Friends would not have existed without the success of Seinfeld."

Actually, Friends wouldn't have existed without Living Single. Seinfeld was gaining some traction by the time Friends came on, but the Simpsons was the biggest show on tv back then, and pretty much slaughtered NBC's line-up.

Ogami: Ratatouille also cost $150 million without P+A.

comment #23

Ogami Itto says ...

"Ogami: Ratatouille also cost $150 million without P+A."

P+A probably cost about $50 million, so overseas and ancillary markets are going to make RATATOUILLE quite profitable; winning the Best Animated Film Oscar should boost DVD sales, too.

comment #24

rocco says ...

Actually Massapequa has some of the nicest waterfront property on the entire southern shore, although holistically it has always been dominated by working class italians and jews...

...people assume that the transparency of wealth we have today always existed...growing up in the 60s and 70s, I'm sure a blue-collar kid from Massapequa would have had very little idea or want of the wealth that existed in areas across the country, let alone across his own county.

comment #25

Terry McCarty says ...

He was so deeply in love, so deeply satisfied by his own trivial quirks that those who didn't share them were alien subjects of ridicule.

The above is also reminiscent of the pans David Letterman received from THE VILLAGE VOICE and (if I recall correctly) David Denby in NEW YORK magazine in the 80s.

comment #26

Craptastic says ...

D.Z., I pray that you're some zit-faced, hot pocket eating teenager.

If not....

comment #27

Arizona Joe says ...

Seinfeld had a good run, and maybe has run out of gas with middleage and fatherhood. The "Bee Movie" seems to be a product of a studio head mediocrity, who may be past his prime also and lost the pulse of the public. Jerry could become Chevy light I fear.

The Seinfeld show characters were self-centered, neurotic,funny and generally likeable. Even as a gentile from the midwest, I could see myself reacting the same way in some of the sitcom situations.

In grad school we used to go to a Greek Church for lunch. They offered free seconds on soup. A crotchety old greek lady would only give it to you if you had not a soupcon left in your bowl, and you asked politely. If not, She'd say in a heavy dialect, "No soup for you!"

Hence, she presaged the Soup Nazi. And when Kramer remarked, "He is not a soup Nazi, he's a great soup artisan." - that's something I'd say.

Jerry had a great run. It will be difficult to capture lightning in a bottle again, no matter how bright he is.

The NY Times suggested last Sunday that he had a right to "earned arrogance." If I was Mr. Seinfeld's manager, I suggest a return to the ostensible nice guy, interested in simple things, not the Canne festival in a bee outfit Jerry.

Count the money, do some stand up, be wary of big projects no matter how big the money. Be the everyman from Massapequa with Talmudic undertones, and find a simple vehicle to express that identity, if you must do a big gig, Jerry.

comment #28

Arizona Joe says ...

Seinfeld had a good run, and maybe has run out of gas with middleage and fatherhood. The "Bee Movie" seems to be a product of a studio head mediocrity, who may be past his prime also and lost the pulse of the public. Jerry could become Chevy light I fear.

The Seinfeld show characters were self-centered, neurotic,funny and generally likeable. Even as a gentile from the midwest, I could see myself reacting the same way in some of the sitcom situations.

In grad school we used to go to a Greek Church for lunch. They offered free seconds on soup. A crotchety old greek lady would only give it to you if you had not a soupcon left in your bowl, and you asked politely. If not, She'd say in a heavy dialect, "No soup for you!"

Hence, she presaged the Soup Nazi. And when Kramer remarked, "He is not a soup Nazi, he's a great soup artisan." - that's something I'd say.

Jerry had a great run. It will be difficult to capture lightning in a bottle again, no matter how bright he is.

The NY Times suggested last Sunday that he had a right to "earned arrogance." If I was Mr. Seinfeld's manager, I suggest a return to the ostensible nice guy, interested in simple things, not the Canne festival in a bee outfit Jerry.

Count the money, do some stand up, be wary of big projects no matter how big the money. Be the everyman from Massapequa with Talmudic undertones, and find a simple vehicle to express that identity, if you must do a big gig, Jerry.

comment #29

Arizona Joe says ...

Seinfeld had a good run, and maybe has run out of gas with middleage and fatherhood. The "Bee Movie" seems to be a product of a studio head mediocrity, who may be past his prime also and lost the pulse of the public. Jerry could become Chevy light I fear.

The Seinfeld show characters were self-centered, neurotic,funny and generally likeable. Even as a gentile from the midwest, I could see myself reacting the same way in some of the sitcom situations.

In grad school we used to go to a Greek Church for lunch. They offered free seconds on soup. A crotchety old greek lady would only give it to you if you had not a soupcon left in your bowl, and you asked politely. If not, She'd say in a heavy dialect, "No soup for you!"

Hence, she presaged the Soup Nazi. And when Kramer remarked, "He is not a soup Nazi, he's a great soup artisan." - that's something I'd say.

Jerry had a great run. It will be difficult to capture lightning in a bottle again, no matter how bright he is.

The NY Times suggested last Sunday that he had a right to "earned arrogance." If I was Mr. Seinfeld's manager, I suggest a return to the ostensible nice guy, interested in simple things, not the Canne festival in a bee outfit Jerry.

Count the money, do some stand up, be wary of big projects no matter how big the money. Be the everyman from Massapequa with Talmudic undertones, and find a simple vehicle to express that identity, if you must do a big gig, Jerry.

comment #30

Josh Massey says ...

"Actually, Friends wouldn't have existed without Living Single."

On the list of "Stupidest Things D.Z. Has Ever Written," that's a Top-Fiver.

comment #31

le corbeau says ...

Seinfeld wouldn't have existed without The Bob Newhart Show-- every time Kramer opens that door and barges in, I expect to hear him say "Hi Bob"-- but I don't know what that means beyond the fact that there are only so many templates for sitcom characters (the married couple with kids, the family with the normal guy surrounded by wacky relatives, the workplace with the normal guy surrounded by wacky coworkers, etc.) Anything that was that successful soon enough finds its own voice; that Archie Bunker is basically Ralph Kramden ("To the moon, Meathead!") doesn't mean that All in the Family is exactly the same as The Honeymooners.

comment #32

Gordie Lachance says ...

There is a pretty sharp divide in this country when it comes to comedy. There are basically only two kinds of funny. “Dumb” funny (Larry The Cable Guy, Ben Stiller, the father character on every sit-com ever made), and “Mean” funny (Larry David, Sarah Silverman, David Letterman). People either like one or the other, and that’s pretty much that.

Jerry falls into the latter group, I assume. Ron Rosenbaum’s problem is that he doesn’t care for the brand of humor that hurts people’s feelings or makes fun. The fact that people like Sarah Silverman and Larry David are only exaggerating the ugly aspects of human nature ijn general is lost on people like Rosenbaum (also, the fact that Seinfeld and David and Silverman all play characters named after themselves kind of blurs the lines between t.v. and reality and confuses the mouth-breathers, I suppose).

Ron sites Steve Martin (who, aside from a few successful award show gigs, was a hacks’ hack) as a real comic talent, because he was “silly” (but can you blame him? That arrow through the head gimmick kills me ever time!).

But there must be something to the fact that 'mean' comics (John Stewart, Chris Rock, etc) are box-office poison, while the Dummys (Jim Carrey, Will Ferral) are "laughing all the way to the bank".

Anyway, there IS something vaguely repulsive about seeing Jerry, who spent 30 years cultivating a cynical, ‘no hugs’ persona playing to the Disney set and selling himself like a 40 year old whore.

comment #33

George Prager says ...

"Jerry Seinfeld is a guy from Massapequa who wishes he was from the Five Towns. If you need that translated for you, you'll never understand, but if not, you'll never look at Seinfeld the same way again."

No one wishes they were from the Five Towns. Why would Seinfeld want to have grown up further away (an extra half hour away) from New York City? You have no idea what you're talking about, drgogol. And adding a smug Sinatra reference proves that you are a fool.

The Baldwins are also from Massapequa (Matzoh-Pizza).

comment #34

Yuval says ...

Now D.Z. you've written some pretty incorrect (*cough* stupid *cough*) things one after the other. Here are some facts to set the record straight (not for all the bullshit, I do have other things to do).

"Seinfeld was gaining some traction by the time Friends came on, but the Simpsons was the biggest show on tv back then, and pretty much slaughtered NBC's line-up."

Seinfeld was number 3 in the ratings on the 93-94 season, that's before 1 minute of Friends ever aired. They also won an Emmy for best comdey series in 93 (along with an Emmies to Michael Richards and to Larry David for writing "The Contest"). They stayed number 1-2 for the rest of their run (alternating 1st and 2nd with ER) and were always ahead of Friends.

The Simpsons was the biggest show Fox ever had in 89-90 when it made the number 28 spot, the first time Fox had a TV show in the top 30 (while NBC's Cheers was number 1 that year, and NBC had 5 of the top 10), but the Simpsons never regained a top 30 spot again, and Fox didn't have a show in the top 30 until The X-Files made the 22 spot in 96-97 (when NBC had all the top 6 spots, ER 1st, Seinfeld 2nd, Friends were 4th, after Suddenly Susan).

"And by that time, comedy shows were trying to be edgier, and Seinfeld was no exception[*cough* Susan's death and bubble boy episode *cough*]. "

The Bubble Boy aired in 92, again, more than 2 years before the 1st epidode of Friedns. Susan's death was 4 years later.

comment #35

christian says ...

Seinfeld was genuinely outraged in that King clip.
And King got pissed at the end. Bee-zzare!

comment #36

Howlingman says ...

What a missed opportunity. I thought it was actually going to be a "Jerry Seinfeld in Giant Bee Costume" for the whole thing.

That, I would see.

comment #37

messiahcomplexio says ...

I think it comes down to Seinfeld coming off as a first-class ass during this entire promotional campaign.

A self satisfied, arrogant ass.

the tone that he couches his observations have become angrier since the seinfeld days and I think people can sense that as well. He seems to be saying over and over, "hi, I'm Jerry Seinfeld, Comic Genius and you dolts should feel lucky I'm ever taking the time to try this".

Most people like to see guys like that taken down a peg.

Or Maybe the "show about nothing" was funnier in the 90's, a decade that seemed to be dominated by trivial matters.

comment #38

PerfectTommy says ...

I'm assuming bigfan0808 is plugging his own dating site in every post. It's so great to have a plug that also has such entertaining and insightful writing.

comment #39

George Prager says ...

Yes, Jerry Seinfeld is a bad, bad man. Too bad Billy Mumy can't blank him to the cornfields.

comment #40

drgogol says ...

"Why would Seinfeld want to have grown up further away (an extra half hour away) from New York City?"

-- GeorgePrager, proven fool.

Get a map, cuddles. The Five Towns are the southwesternmost point of Nassau County; two and a half of the five (Inwood, Lawrence, North Woodmere) literally border Queens. Massapequa is at least 20-25 miles EAST of the Five Towns, FURTHER from New York City -- unless they moved the thing this morning.

The Baldwins have no bearing here; compared to Seinfeld, they're exquisitely comfortable in their skin (well, maybe not Daniel).

And, for the record, Frank Sinatra has chunks of guys like you in his stool --- and of guys like Seinfeld, too, for that matter.

comment #41

D.Z. says ...

Yuval: "Seinfeld was number 3 in the ratings on the 93-94 season, that's before 1 minute of Friends ever aired."

I acknowledged it had some market share, but it wasn't huge. People were aware of it and watching it, but it wasn't *the* show to watch yet.

"They also won an Emmy for best comdey series in 93 (along with an Emmies to Michael Richards and to Larry David for writing "The Contest")."

The Simpsons won an Emmy, too. What's your point?

"They stayed number 1-2 for the rest of their run (alternating 1st and 2nd with ER) and were always ahead of Friends."

Um, no they weren't always ahead of Friends. Did Seinfeld have its own music video they'd play repeatedly on MTV? Did the relationships on Seinfeld get mocked on other comedy shows? Did people use lines from Seinfeld in casual conversations? Did any of the stars from Seinfeld get major parts in films? No, but that was clearly the case with Friends.

"The Simpsons was the biggest show Fox ever had in 89-90 when it made the number 28 spot, the first time Fox had a TV show in the top 30 (while NBC's Cheers was number 1 that year, and NBC had 5 of the top 10), but the Simpsons never regained a top 30 spot again,"

Perhaps, but it was still huge enough to keep Seinfeld down.

"The Bubble Boy aired in 92, again, more than 2 years before the 1st epidode of Friedns. Susan's death was 4 years later."

Ok, I'll concede the Bubble Boy thing.

comment #42

christian says ...

"Did people use lines from Seinfeld in casual conversations?"

D.Z., you are so gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

And I've never liked the show. Ever. But yes, it was huge.

comment #43

George Prager says ...

You are right, drgogol. I was think of Islip and all of those towns around there (I'm from the North Shore, so none of those ugly South Shore Amy Fisher villages never registered). Still, I doubt Jerry Seinfeld cares less about Hewlett or Inwood or any of those Mook hamlets that you are talking about.

And easy with the Sinatra references, schmeggege. The more accurate put-down would've been this one: "And, for the record, Frank Sinatra had chunks of guys like you in his colostomy bag --- and of guys like Seinfeld, too, for that matter."

And anyone who uses the term "cuddles" hasn't been laid since batteries not included played at the Green Acres Cinema.

comment #44

George Prager says ...

Having read D.Z.'s assinine posts on this thread, I must make an observation. D.Z. can only discuss a topic in terms of what came first, what made more money, what had higher ratings, what was popular first, what made more money first, what made less money first, what made less money last, what show made more stars, what ripped off what, who ripped off whom, what sounds exactly like something else, who said what which was exactly what someone else said, who did what to whom, who did what to whom first, etc...
Never does he say: I like this. This is why I like this. This made me feel this way, etc.
I guess this is how Asperger's sufferers engage with the world.

comment #45

drgogol says ...

Prager --

I'm gonna be nice.

Amy Fisher is from Merrick/Bellmore -- which is much closer, geographically and culturally, to Massapequa than to the Five Towns. The nearest North Shore cognate to the Five Towns is Roslyn, maybe Port Washington: old WASP towns which were adopted by nouveau riche Jews after WWII and which never again had either the starchy suburbanism that originally marked them or the true snob cachet of, say, Oyster Bay or the Hamptons. At the time Seinfeld (and I) grew up, the Five Towns were flush and tacky -- an epitome of gauche Jewish-American tastlinessness the dissecting of which cost Philip Roth much of his hairline. (A notable Five Towns character in cinema is Karen Hill in "Goodfellas" -- and the guy across the street from her whom Ray Liotta smashes the nose of with a pistol.)

Coming from Massapequa, a more working class neighborhood (at least back then), one with fewer NYC executives or white-collar types, Seinfeld would've inevitably felt some envy toward the ritzier jewish enclaves nearby. (The combination of mock humility and seething ego just barely hidden by his comic persona makes his status-conscious nature certain.) Somewhere Madonna once dismissed Seinfeld as a JAP (Jewish American Prince, as you likely now). But, in fact, at the time he grew up there, there weren't really JAPS in Massapequa, whereas the Five Towns was a virtual Tokyo. (Massapequa was more like, I don't know, Saipan or Iwo Jima.)

The Sinatra allusion in my first post was entirely apropos, as an earlier poster had refenced a Larry King clip in which Seinfeld bragged about the impact of his final episode -- one which barely made a headline the next morning because of Sinatra's passing. The second was a quote from Phil Hartman in an SNL episode. I'm happy with both and have no clue what your issue is.

BTW, I saw "Chinatown" and "Earthquake" and "Jaws" and "The Exorcist" and "The Godfather" and lord knows what else at Green Acres Theater before they split it into a triplex...and "Diamonds Are Forever" and "The Lords of Flatbush" and more at the Sunrise Drive-In right next door.

Oh, and Sinatra never had a colostomy; Perry Como did. Again, you can look it up.

comment #46

movieirv says ...

i guess i'm uncool or unhip or something, but i thoroughly enjoyed bee movie as did the four kids i took, ages 6 to 9. you can tell they liked it because they didn't ask for anything at the refreshment stand. one thing perplexes me, however: What's with the ray liotta jokeS?

comment #47

Hallick says ...

"I acknowledged it had some market share, but it wasn't huge. People were aware of it and watching it, but it wasn't *the* show to watch yet."

Before one single episode of "Friends" saw daylight in September of '94, "Seinfeld" had already wrapped up its fifth season. And it had long become *the* comedy to watch sometime around the winter and spring of 1991, during its 2nd season. Even the landmark episode ("The Contest") aired on November 18, 1992, nearly 2 entire years before "Friends". It also won the Emmy for Best Comedy Series in 1993.

But thank god they spent four or five years swearing to everybody in earshot that a series called "Friends" was soon on its way in 1994 to save their ass. They never would've amounted to anything without that.

comment #48

D.Z. says ...

christian: I didn't like Friends, either, but that was a bigger juggernaut than Seinfeld.

George: Hey, if you feel the need to defend Bee Movie, it's your choice. We all have different tastes, after all...

comment #49

George Prager says ...

This is a lot of information, drgogol. (maybe too much). You should write a book (maybe you have). I still don't think you can psychoanalyze Seinfeld in terms of Massapequa vs. Five Towns, and him feeling envy, which fuels his personality to this day. Then again, his wife is from Oyster Bay, so who knows?
And the Sinatra thing is a little overblown. Enough of Sinatra already. Sinatra was Sinatra. It's like your taking his name in vain. The last Seinfeld made headlines and Sinatra made headlines. Seinfeld made headlines because people couldn't believe how awful it was. Of course the show had jumped the shark about 4 years earlier.

For the record, I saw Eight Million Ways to Die at the Green Acres Mall.

comment #50

Yuval says ...

D.Z. I'm partly embarrassed for you. Writing to you is futile, but it makes me feel good about myself, so one more, just to see where you take it.

"Did the relationships on Seinfeld get mocked on other comedy shows? Did people use lines from Seinfeld in casual conversations? Did any of the stars from Seinfeld get major parts in films?"

This is where it gets really awkward for you D.Z. (which is saying a lot). You may have been living in a cave, or you were too busy writing things like this to let reality get in your way, but the answer to all these questions is YES. I could list all the catchphrases or all the Seinfeld references, but this comment is long enough. I will say this - the original post is about a big budget animation film called Bee movie. It is probably crap, but it will make hundreds of millions worldwide. Was the star/writer/producer of the movie ever in a successful sitcom? Which was?

"Did Seinfeld have its own music video they'd play repeatedly on MTV?"

NO, you're absolutely right. Because Friends' theme song was successful Friends was a more infulential show than Seinfeld (which didn't have a theme song). Not only that, the song was so successful that it made 3-5 million viewers watch Seinfeld each week, but not Friends. You should have mentioned that you were counting on the successful-theme-song-makes-the-show-on-the-same-day-but-not-the-original-show-more-successful theory. Then I wouldn't have a problem.

"it (The Simpsons) was still huge enough to keep Seinfeld down."

It kept Seinfeld down from what? Making number 1 each year?

"The Simpsons won an Emmy, too. What's your point?"

My point is that you're wrong in so many ways it's hard to list. That's why I've written this sentence in different variations so many times. Seinfeld won an Emmy for best Comedy series before Friends aired, and had more viewers before Friends aired than Friends will have through the 90s. So if you're wondering what's my point, then just say to yourself "I'm wrong" and you get it.

comment #51

Hallick says ...

"Did Seinfeld have its own music video they'd play repeatedly on MTV?"

Which is why we can all agree "The Heights" ("How Do You Talk To An Angel?") was truly the better show of the '90s. Case closed.

comment #52

le corbeau says ...

Damn you, Dr. Gogol, damn you and all your New Yorkers when you can never understand the agony, the sheer existential despair that is the lot of the Topekan! To know that just 3 hours away Louise Brooks and Vera Miles and Don Johnson once strolled the earth, while Topeka can claim nothing grander and more mythic than Annette Benning! To know that an hour away, Civil War history was made by Quantrill's Raiders in Lawrence, and music history was made by Atchison, to whom Topeka will always come second in song! Yet you, with your Italians and your Jews and your transplanted hands, mock the good German and Scandinavian farm folk of Topeka! How dare you, sir? How dare you add to their pain?

comment #53

drgogol says ...

GeorgePrager:"This is a lot of information, drgogol. (maybe too much). You should write a book (maybe you have)."

No, but I might. And it's why in my original post I said "If you need that translated for you, you'll never understand" -- you seem to have a halfway understanding, but it's a complex thing.

GeorgePager: "his wife is from Oyster Bay"

Oh. My. God. Lemme just say that this earns me an honorary degree in psychoanalysis. HIs plagiarist wife is from Oyster Bay???? Could Dr. Freud himself have sketched out a more perfect denoument???

Jerry Seinfeld: forever wannabe.

As for you, Mgmax: I apologize. Try the blue pill.

comment #54

D.Z. says ...

Yuval: "You may have been living in a cave, or you were too busy writing things like this to let reality get in your way, but the answer to all these questions is YES. I could list all the catchphrases or all the Seinfeld references, but this comment is long enough."

So being the fat guy who gets attacked by a dinosaur in Jurassic Park counts as a major role? Name me some movies Dreyfuss and Richards did while the show was still on the air. Name me a tv series which poked fun of specific episodes of Seinfeld. Ask anyone if they can remember more than 5-10 episodes of Seinfeld over 5-10 episodes of Friends.

"I will say this - the original post is about a big budget animation film called Bee movie. It is probably crap, but it will make hundreds of millions worldwide."

It couldn't even make a hundred million this weekend.

"Was the star/writer/producer of the movie ever in a successful sitcom?"

One, but that was ten years ago.

"Because Friends' theme song was successful Friends was a more infulential show than Seinfeld (which didn't have a theme song)."

I didn't say Seinfeld didn't have a theme song, but it didn't play it non-stop on a (then-)popular music channel.

"Not only that, the song was so successful that it made 3-5 million viewers watch Seinfeld each week, but not Friends."

I don't know anyone who switched over to Seinfeld because of Friends. Hell, people were talking about the show up until it ended, while Seinfeld's ending caused people to say, "That's it?!", and move on. Even the ending for the Sopranos got more attention than the ending for Seinfeld.

"It kept Seinfeld down from what? Making number 1 each year?"

Yep. The Simpsons peaked with the new writers.

"Seinfeld won an Emmy for best Comedy series before Friends aired, and had more viewers before Friends"

Yeah, but Friends had more viewers than Seinfeld sooner than it took Seinfeld to have the same number of viewers.

comment #55

diagf.com says ...

"Yeah, but Friends had more viewers than Seinfeld sooner than it took Seinfeld to have the same number of viewers."

Jesus, shut the fuck up.

Cheers(ended in '93), Seinfeld, and ER were killing the ratings on Thursday nights and created "Must See TV" long before Friends, Wings, Will & Grace, ER, Scrubs, and Frasier killed it.

comment #56

Yuval says ...

Good luck D.Z. that's enough for me now. It's both comforting and troubling to know you're here. You don't work by logic, but pretend you do, which is interesting. The best thing to do, I guess, is to ignore you and just observe. On the other hand, the temptation to tell someone he's wrong is so very strong. I've enjoyed this, but exchanging comments with you is always kind of tragic.

By the way, if you ever watch an episode of Seinfeld, you'll find out it doesn't have a theme song (which is what I said). But I'm doing it again, pretending there's a chance your logic and the real world has something in common.

comment #57

christian says ...

Pleaese stop. Bee kind...

comment #58

D.Z. says ...

diag: I'll admit that Cheers was pretty successful, but the Cosby Show was bigger for NBC, even if the actors didn't get as many parts in the latter show. ER didn't come along until around the same time as Friends, and that same latter demo made Clooney a star. Also, Wings came out around the same time as Cheers, and Frasier was a much bigger hit than Cheers.

Yuval: It has a theme song, just not lyrics. A song doesn't have to always have lyrics to be considered a song, does it? Now I'm using the logic you ignored.

comment #59

PerfectTommy says ...

Yeah, I'm an idiot to get into this, but...

TV Guides list of 50 Greatest Shows:
Seinfeld #1
Friends #21

ClassicTV.com's list of greatest shows:
Seinfeld #19
Friends #42

And USA Today said this in 2005 on the release of Seinfeld on DVD:
Bulky DVD sets of TV series added to crowding but were snatched up. That category's big hit of the holiday shopping season was the first Seinfeld DVDs. About 4 million copies of the first three seasons of the show were sold, making it the highest-grossing and fastest-selling TV DVD so far, says Sony Pictures Home Entertainment president Benjamin Feingold.

"Seinfeld became a huge event as opposed to a normal TV DVD where you ship a couple of hundred thousand units," Feingold says. "And Dave Chappelle (Chappelle's Show Season One) did fantastic."

Nothing comparable for Friends.

But you go on DZ, being Master of Your Domain.

comment #60

nakedmanatee says ...

My favorite episode of Friends is the one where Ross and Rachel kiss, then have second thoughts.

comment #61

D.Z. says ...

Perfect: Um, TV Guide also liked Party of Five, so it's not like you can take them seriously. Also, the collections did well, but how did the individual sets do?

naked: Heh.

comment #62

christian says ...

My favorite episode of Friends is when it finally ended.

comment #63

rocco says ...

drgogol, did you actually attend school with Seinfeld? Sounds like you have something personal against him...forever wannabe? He's bigger than Jackie Gleason. Bee Movie may or may not suck, but at least he hasn't completely sold out and made a "The Toy" yet.

I grew up in the 80s, so perhaps I have different perspective. Even before Long Island became synonymous with The Hamptons, the five towns area had lost its cache and me and cadre of Italian and Jewish friends didn't think much beyond the limits of Jones Beach, All-American, Shea Stadium, or dirty, gritty Manhattan.

I'm grew up in NORTH Massapequa, about as working-class Italian/Jewish as it gets. Before the glut of "millionaires next door" pushed home prices to $750k, Mass. was an unassuming, salt-of-the-earth type place. Time has not been kind to its dates storefronts and outmoded homes, and I wouldn't be surprised if kids today, with their worldly views via streaming broadband, pined for surroundings more attractive than The Sunrise Mall and the Tackapausha Preserve. Even today, though, the bay area of Massapequa can rival any of the other gauche hamlets scattered across Nassau, and I doubt a kid like Seinfeld wouldneed to look much farther than the southern section of his own town for envy.

Btw, besides the BAldwins there's also Jessica Hahn, Joey Buttafuco, Dee Snider, Steve Guttenberg, Ron Kovic, Brian Setzer, among others, and then there was Jimmy, and Tommy, and me...And there was Anthony Stabile, Franke Carbone. And then there was Mo Black's brother, Fat Andy, and Freddy No-Nose. And then there was Pete the Killer, who was Sally Balls' brother.

comment #64

rocco says ...

Wow, I really massacred the english language with that one...

comment #65

christian says ...

Jeez, it's like sports team rivalry. My town can beat up your town...

"He's bigger than Jackie Gleason."

Not until he gets an Oscar nom and makes a SKIDOO.

comment #66

drgogol says ...

delbomber --

Actually, a funny thing killed off the Five Towns. The nouveau riche secular Jews were run out of the place by ultra-orthodox, who turned some of the public schools into yeshivas and ensured that one of the busiest shopping streets on the entire Island is now closed on Saturdays.

And so it goes.....