comment #1

Chicago48 says ...

I'm with you Jeff. Anton in NCFOM was supposed to be scary frightening evil, but he wasn't to me...I've seen it all before...

comment #2

Kristopher Tapley says ...

Do tell. What ELSE is there to identify a villain of depth?

comment #3

Ortega says ...

Uh, Jeff, you might want to change the caption, 'cause last time I checked, Heath didn't change his name to Heather. Also, you skipped an "h" in psycopath. Don't want to come across as a smartass, just trying to help out.

comment #4

mrmystery says ...

Depends on what you mean by "psychopathic." A lot of very bad guys are portrayed in the opposite route into unemotional, mechanical evil, spouting tech gibberish like the villian in Die Hard 4 or that crappy Harrison Ford movie from a couple years ago where grampa beat up the villian in the worst fight sequence in history. Maybe in our current world, it's the techno villians, flat and affectless as a voice on the end of the phone call from your bank, that is truely scarey.

comment #5

Ortega says ...

Oh man, me pointing out mispellings and writing "psycopath." Serves me right, I guess.

comment #6

mutinyco says ...

They're completely overexposing both The Joker and the movie itself. Seems every week there's either a new "exclusive photo" of The Joker or some streaming featurette. They should just take the movie into stealth mode at this point, this is getting boring.

It's Batman. It's pre-sold. It'll do $200-mil.

comment #7

Doug Pratt says ...

Henry Portrait of a Serial Killer is celebrated for having gone against that grain.
A number of Asian films have as well, such as The Untold Story, but they are often unpalatable because there is nothing in the villain that you can latch onto as attractive.

comment #8

Arizona Joe says ...

A sociopath or psychopath is a well defined psychological generic personality as described by psychiatrists and psychologists.

I guess there are degrees and nuances to such depraved and evil individuals. And the vast majority are male. But they are all about the same: total self-involvement, total lack of remorse and sympathy, and often charming.

Just think about the brilliance of Mitchum's and Laughton's portral? It was Ted Bundy years before he became famous.

There has been an attempt to do a slight variation of the character: a sociopath with misgivings and a modicum of regret, and counseling sessions with a psychiatrist.

And thus we have one of the foundations of the Sopranos, and why Tony Soprano was so compelling.

comment #9

Rich S. says ...

I'm wondering where Nolan is going with the Joker in this film. In my favorite portrayal, the Englehart/Rogers Detectives (which we've discussed here before), the Joker is just so damn random. He makes money from his crimes almost in spite of himself.

Nolan's Joker seems to be as Jeffrey describes; a garden-variety sociopath. I'm sad they decided not to go with bleached skin. Ledger just looks like any number of generic serial killers dressed as clowns.

Personally, some of my favorite villains are ones that are just plain mean. They do things out of spite more than anything else, so they're usually comedic. Peter Cook's Satan in Bedazzled and the Martians in Burton's Mars Attacks! spring to mind. Ray Wise's Satan in Reaper is kind of cut from that mold.

comment #10

Dan Revill says ...

Yes, the film geek community is aware of another Batman film, but the general public isn't. This so-called oversaturation hasn't really hit 85-90% of the population. All of the viral sites etc are cool, but how many people actually know of them?
Most people will need to be hammered over the head to realize that this incarnation of the Joker has nothing to do with Jack Nicholson.

As for whether or not this portrayal will make any new headway in the ultimate villain race, it remains to be seen...but I like the looks of him so far...bleached skin would have been cool, but I can understand why they wouldn't go for it. Just as long as the finished product kicks ass, then it probably won't matter.

comment #11

Walter Sobchak says ...

Robert Carlyle did a good villain in that James Bond flick a few years back... it wasn't relevatory, but it worked for me.... (he couldn't feel pain)...

I still get creeped out hearing Mitchum scream out, "Children!" in Night of the Hunter....

comment #12

Dave says ...

The best movie villain of the last decade was Rachel Weisz in The Shape of Things.

That said. . . I dunno, Jeff, where *do* we go? The scariest people in real life are the true believers, no? I'm sure you could reach for a comforting George W. Bush or Dick Cheney quote right now, just as surely as I would disagree with you that *they* are villains. . . but that's certainly the archetype we're both looking for, no?

The scariest villains in movies aren't the cackling insane mad murderers but the people who have very sound justifications for what they do. Who, in fact, don't see themselves as evil, or even necessarily broken in the mental health sense of the phrase.

Every one of us can spot a nut-job. We hear about them all the time. It's the truly malevolent and cruel who don't understand they are malevolent and cruel who get me. The people who lack empathy for their actions, who don't see others as human beings deserving their respect and tolerance.

In other words, my ex-girlfriend ;-).

THAT'S evil.

comment #13

NV says ...

The antagonist in Spoorloos was the opposite of irrational. He used rational thought to justify his evil actions. I still believe that was as radical a departure as any depiction of evil we've seen in recent cinema

comment #14

Pinko Punko says ...

We had Tony Soprano- who else do you want? He was a bad guy who was not one note.

comment #15

DarthCorleone says ...

I know I've beat this drum multiple times here, but Anton Chigurh is in his own category of villain. Like the Grim Reaper, he simply is. Of course he wouldn't spout witty one-liners.

comment #16

Luke Y. Thompson says ...

I liked the way the kidnappers were portrayed in Gone Baby Gone. Pathetic and banal as people, the way so many actual serial killers are.

comment #17

arch451 says ...

Ralph Fiennes in Schindler's List is an interesting psychopath.

comment #18

Mr. Gittes says ...

Jeff, I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

Ledger's Best Supporting Nom is already kicking into high gear...

Daniel Day-Lewis in Gangs of New York was an incredible villain.

comment #19

Circumvrent says ...

You may not like the movie, but there's no doubt that Serenity's Operative is one scary mofo. This is a guy that comforts the dying man he just stabbed through the heart. There's obviously a screw loose, but the idea that he is doing good - and will stop at nothing to do good - is the scariest idea of all.

And come to think of it, I would say Anton's closer to the Operative than the Joker...

comment #20

Geoff says ...

"I pardon you"

Yeah, Armon Goeth is a great psychopath. But was he always like that? Many of the Germans in WWII became villains by following an authority. It's like the Milgram experiment. Goeth fits in to Wells' profile.

comment #21

p.Vice says ...

Sgt. Barnes has always been tops when it comes to a psychopath character... and Goeth from Schindler's List is definitely a close second... I don't really count The Joker or Hannibal Lecter or even Chigurgh from NCFOM because they're more cartoon characters than full, complex people. Everyone knows that true psychos don't huff and puff and bug out their eyes 24 hours a day... If the Coens had been interesting in making about ABOUT Chigurgh instead of around him as the cipher in the middle of the mayhem, it would have been a far different beast (and likely not nearly as compelling for most).

comment #22

Hallick says ...

For a movie with a great villain that's built more around the man's actions than a crazy act (or having a bunch of catchy lines), look at "Oldboy". There's a point where he's laughing at someone and it's one of the most evil moments you'll find in recent films.

comment #23

christian says ...

Stephen McHattie played a unique psycho in the not-bad DEATH VALLEY from the 80's. He has one great scene where he talks to his potential victim through a locked door about how he's going to break in. Soft low understated is always scarier than over the top.

BTW, the only truly scary moment of Jack's Joker in BATMAN is right after his cheap surgery and you only see him from the back, with his gauzed fingers grabbing the miror, then you hear crying that turns into manic laughter. Creepy.

comment #24

Hallick says ...

"You may not like the movie, but there's no doubt that Serenity's Operative is one scary mofo. This is a guy that comforts the dying man he just stabbed through the heart. There's obviously a screw loose, but the idea that he is doing good - and will stop at nothing to do good - is the scariest idea of all."

Chiwetel Ejiofor, who deserves to be bigger than he is right now. He was beautifully "honorable" in his evil, wasn't he?

Nestor Carbonelli(?) has a similar scene in "Smokin Aces" that's even a little bit better(and boy -I'd really like to blot out the memory of his character blowtorching a guy in the groin...).

comment #25

Silverscreenvideos says ...

It hasn't gottent the publicity of Ledger, but Aaron Eckhart is supposed to be playing Two-Face, a villain who bears some similarity to Anton Chrguth. Formerly the district attorney, half his face was scarred, which wound up warping his personality.

Two Face had a two headed coin, one half of which he defaced. When he captured someone he would flip the coin to decide if the person would live or die (a precursor to Chrguh's methodology). The kicker is that he really has a split personality, with his "good" side competing with the evil one. Eckhart is a good actor, and if they keep close to the original notion of the villain, this could make for a very interesting portrayal (Tommy Lee Jones played Two Face as a way over the top psycho in one of Joel Schumacher's Batman fiascos).

comment #26

Silverscreenvideos says ...

HAL is the best screen sociopath of all time.

comment #27

DavidF says ...

No one mentioned Oldman in Leon - that was a good, theatrical psycho (ditto for Drexel, I guess).

I dunno if a computer can be socipathic, by definition, but it can, HAL qualifies. You could make the same argument for Ash in Alien.

Goeth is a bit weird to discuss since, as far as I can tell, he is the only REAL person in this thread. Unquestionably he WAS a psychopath and really captures that whole "Banality of Evil" thing that typified the Nazis. This was a man who actually woke up, shot someone from his balcony and THEN went to piss.

It comes down to Schindler's attempting to explain to Stern that war brings out the worst in people and without the war Goeth would just be some charming common criminal. Of course, we can see from Schindler's example that his whole premise about what war does to people is not entirely true...

comment #28

The Winchester says ...

Who can forget that menacing giant eyeball in the Lord of the Rings movies? Because when I think multilayered evil, a giant eyeball in the sky does it for me.

comment #29

Geoff says ...

Ahhh, thank you Winchester. Funny stuff.

But don't forget those films are MASTERPIECES I tell you....BRILLIANT, EPIC films about good little people and especially evil jewelry.

comment #30

admiralmpj says ...

I think everyone's missing the point. What's coming in 2008 isn't a Tim Burton film. This isn't JOKER: THE MOVIE (mistakenly titled Batman in 1989). This is a real Batman Film, as was Batman Begins. The Joker himself isn't the point, it's the effect of the psychopath on the hero...that's what matters.

The Joker was interesting in the comics, not for what he did, or his personal schtick, but for the fact that for some reason, this villain got to Batman in a way the others did not. The fact that he enjoyed his crimes or was oblivious to their effects affected Batman in a unique way.

comment #31

Aris P says ...

Was HAL a sociopath? Interesting opinion. He was the greatest computer that ever "lived", but a computer who was programmed to lie, going against his very "soul". As a result, he did what he had to do to protect the mission. His actions, consequently, may have evil, but his intentions were always pure. When someone knows that killing is wrong (as HAL must have known), but sees nothing wrong in it, does that make one a sociopath? Perhaps. But does it apply to a machine? I don't know. If i were still in college I would want to write a paper about this.

comment #32

MAGGA says ...

Nurse Ratchet is the scariest villain of all time because she is "right", reflecting the psychotic nature of the system. You could film the exact same story with her as the hero if you were so inclined. She is doing her job and can not let empathy get in the way of leading her pationts to a "better life"

comment #33

christian says ...

Gene Wilder's Willy Wonka might be the scariest villain of all. Because he's good...and he harms children. Not to mention those fucking Oompa Loompas.

I said GOOD DAY SIR!

comment #34

BurmaShave says ...

Richard Widmark as Udo in KISS OF DEATH pre-dates Mitchum by about seven years.

comment #35

Dan Revill says ...

Bill Paxton was an awesome villain in Frailty. Not many movies can get to me in the way it did, and its mainly because of his "true believer" performance.

comment #36

BurmaShave says ...

Also, John Caroll Lynch's Arthur Leigh Allen was the scariest character on film this year, apologies to Anton Chigurgh.

comment #37

D.Z. says ...

mutinyco: "It's Batman. It's pre-sold. It'll do $200-mil."

The last one was lucky to do $150 million.

Geoff: "But was he always like that? Many of the Germans in WWII became villains by following an authority. It's like the Milgram experiment."

Um, they didn't follow Hitler. They worked with him.

comment #38

jeffmcm says ...

DZ, Batman Begins grossed $205 domestic. The next one will gross substantially more, the same way that X2 grossed more than X-Men and Spider-Man 2 grossed more than Spider-Man.

"Um, they didn't follow Hitler. They worked with him."
Um, what the fuck does that mean. He didn't have 80 million secretaries and personal assistants.

comment #39

BNick says ...

Of course, DZ, you're completely wrong.

Begins did $205 million domestic, $371 worldwide, and that was after a relatively soft open. Word of mouth was awesome.

The second one should have a huge open. $200 million is a floor unless it's terrible.

comment #40

BNick says ...

jeffmcm, thanks for beating me to the punch!

I'd just add that Pirates 2 might be a good model for TDK. The first one grossed a large amount thanks primarily to word of mouth, and the second one opened to ridiculous business.

comment #41

jeffmcm says ...

Well, it just shows you how easy this information is to find when you're not blinded by insane preconceptions.

comment #42

BNick says ...

I do think it's interesting that Batman Begins was considered incredibly well-received, while Superman Returns is considered by most people to have missed the mark. Yet they got similar reviews grossed more or less the same amount.

I doubt a Superman sequel would have the hype and firepower behind it that TDK seems to have.

comment #43

D.Z. says ...

BNick: It also cost at least $150 million.

comment #44

Noah says ...

D.Z.: So what? You said Batman was lucky to make 150 million, but it made over fifty million more than that domestically. Kindly just admit that you were wrong about that. Just say, "whoops, made a mistake, sorry about that" and all will be forgiven.

comment #45

jeffmcm says ...

DZ, nobody was talking about profitability, although a movie that has grossed $371 worldwide with that cost is already in profit before it has hit DVD and TV sales, meaning that BB has probably made at least $100m in pure profit.

Superman Returns, not so much.

comment #46

JB Moore says ...

Burma - Right on about Widmark's Tommy Udo. He throws an old woman down a flight of stairs for Chrissakes!

As for me, it doesn't get any meaner and more fucked-up than Shirley Stoler and Tony LoBianco in THE HONEYMOON KILLERS. That movie made me physically ill the first time I saw it.

comment #47

MathewM says ...

Yep, the Joker looks pretty ho-hum. I thought Batman Returns was a little overrated. The fight scenes were all done in that tight close-up style that is popular nowadays which to me feels forced. Also while the film had the right mood I find it a chore to watch all the way through. The same could be said as well for Burton's Batman films too I guess.

comment #48

christian says ...

Incredibly, what's been missing from all the Batman films is an expertly choreographed comic book fight scene. Watch how Raimi does it in SPIDERMAN 2. I hope Nolan nails this in the next one.

comment #49

lipranzer says ...

I don't know if they're psychopaths so much as sociopaths, but to me, the ultimate portrayals of evil both came out the same year - Al Pacino in GODFATHER PART II, and John Huston in CHINATOWN. Pacino portrayed the banality of evil, while Huston did the depravity of evil.

comment #50

OddDuck says ...

christian, I agree with you on the lack of a truly memorable fight scene in any of the batman movies, but Nolan can do it. Look at how Singer went from X-Men from X2 - I like both movies, and in some ways, X-Men seems more personal and character-driven, but Singer made a quantum leap in terms of staging interesting and kick-ass action sequences. Nolan can and will do the same (I hope!) with his next shot.

comment #51

D.Z. says ...

Noah: "D.Z.: So what? You said Batman was lucky to make 150 million, but it made over fifty million more than that domestically."

Um, no, it technically only made $50 million domestically, assuming you don't count P+A.

jeff: "DZ, nobody was talking about profitability, although a movie that has grossed $371 worldwide with that cost is already in profit before it has hit DVD and TV sales, meaning that BB has probably made at least $100m in pure profit."

Still less profit than the other films.

"The next one will gross substantially more, the same way that X2 grossed more than X-Men and Spider-Man 2 grossed more than Spider-Man."

The first X Men and Spider Man films already opened well for themselves. Batman Begins had to spend months in theaters to compete with Xenu Jr. and Darth Vader ripping off Frankenstein.

BNick: "I'd just add that Pirates 2 might be a good model for TDK. The first one grossed a large amount thanks primarily to word of mouth, and the second one opened to ridiculous business."

But Ledger's no Depp.

christian: "Incredibly, what's been missing from all the Batman films is an expertly choreographed comic book fight scene. Watch how Raimi does it in SPIDERMAN 2."

Batman's not really about fighting, but about stealth.

OddDuck: "Look at how Singer went from X-Men from X2 - I like both movies, and in some ways, X-Men seems more personal and character-driven, but Singer made a quantum leap in terms of staging interesting and kick-ass action sequences."

That's because he had spies on the set of the Matrix sequels...

comment #52

Noah says ...

Daniel Zelter, you are so fucking special...

comment #53

jeffmcm says ...

Translation:

Noah: "I have something to say-"
DZ: "You're wrong and I fucking hate you."
Jeff: "but how about..."
DZ: Shut up and suck my cock"
Bnick: "But surely..."
DZ: "All of your mothers are whores"
Christian: "Well, on another subject-"
DZ: "Eat shit and die"

Actually, my version would be a lot less annoying than the real, passive-aggressive, developmentally arrested version.

comment #54

scooterzz says ...

slightly off-topic but still re: the dark knight.... the cover of 'book two: dark knight triumphant' has always been a favorite and the dark knight i've wanted to see.... he's old, beat-up, craggy and, really, just pissed off... it's a great illustration and would've been a great part for jack palance.......google image the cover, it's great......

comment #55

BurmaShave says ...

"Batman Begins had to spend months in theaters to compete with Xenu Jr. and Darth Vader ripping off Frankenstein."

Fuck, I think I actually understand what he's trying to say there. Kill me now.

comment #56

christian says ...

I agree scooterzz, that illustration is one of the great Batman images. Miller pretty much nailed it all with his take.