comment #1

Peter Sciretta says ...

Slightly unrelated BUT, the first photo from Morgan Spurlock's follow-up to Super Size Me is now online. Where in the World is Osama Bin Laden is the name f the movie, it will be premiering at Sundance. The contents of the film have been kept tightly under wraps, and some believe that Spurlock accomplished what the government couldn't do, and actually found Bin Laden.

http://www.slashfilm.com/2007/12/02/first-look-morgan-spurlock%e2%80%99s-where-in-the-world-is-osama-bin-laden/

comment #2

Dirty Harry says ...

It really is a shame that Obama may not win the primary because Democrats are refusing to endorse him because he's black.

Too bad some Democrats won't vote for Obama in the primary because he's black.

If liberals could get past skin color, Obama might have a chance.

comment #3

jeffmcm says ...

Of course, Harry, you are being disingenuous. Would you be at all interested in actually discussing these issues or are you content with 'Liberals suck'?

comment #4

Silverscreenvideos says ...

The Republicans didn't hate John Kerry either like they did the Clintons. That didn't stop them from getting the sleaze machine going and steamrolling him.

The guys who are in charge of Republican campaigns, Karl Rove and his ilk, are not the mouth breathing, drooling morons that get whipped up into a frenzy about Hillary. They go about their job methodically and dispassionately. They view Obama for what he is, a lightweight who won't be able to stand up under the pressure, and the main weapon they will use against him is his inexperience and naivete. By the time the election campaign is over, I'm afraid that a lot of people will say that Obama seemed like a nice guy, but just not someone you could trust the country to in a time of crisis.

Nominating someone like Obama is the only way the Democrats can lose this election. It's not the bigots Obama has to worry about, it's the independents who will be scared of the way the Republicans twist his foreign policy statements around.

comment #5

D.Z. says ...

Harry: "It really is a shame that Obama may not win the primary because Democrats are refusing to endorse him because he's black.Too bad some Democrats won't vote for Obama in the primary because he's black."

Oh, they'll endorse him. They're just afraid you won't.

"If liberals could get past skin color, Obama might have a chance."

If conservatives didn't make it tougher for black people to succeed, then Obama wouldn't be the only candidate who had a chance of making it in office.

Silver: "By the time the election campaign is over, I'm afraid that a lot of people will say that Obama seemed like a nice guy, but just not someone you could trust the country to in a time of crisis."

That national security crap won't work in '08, because the guy everyone "likes to drink beer with" couldn't even stop a flood...

"Nominating someone like Obama is the only way the Democrats can lose this election."

Yeah, picking a "centrist" who won't actually motivate the non-voters to go to the polls is the way to go.

"It's not the bigots Obama has to worry about, it's the independents who will be scared of the way the Republicans twist his foreign policy statements around."

Independents hate Bush more than anyone.

comment #6

jeffmcm says ...

"the guy everyone "likes to drink beer with" couldn't even stop a flood..."

Huh?

All you're doing is make yourself feel better. You are not making the world a better place through your actions.

comment #7

PastePotPete says ...

"That national security crap won't work in '08, because the guy everyone "likes to drink beer with" couldn't even stop a flood..."

Is that somehow easy to do in DZarro world?

comment #8

BNick says ...

Well of course the Republicans are going to be hard on Obama, just as they would be on any candidate. But I don't think you can seriously claim that he'll be just as easy to demonize as Hillary would.

Look, the guy is in the lead within the margin of error in two polls in one freaking state, and he's already running like the sunny frontrunner! He's even begun putting Hillary's silly attacks on him on his campaign website.

hillaryattacks.barackobama.com

The more people attack him, the more he'll seem to rise above the fray. Being attacked plays right into his strengths. And the more he's attacked by a Republican, the more it will drive liberal and minority voters to the polls. In droves.

comment #9

Dave says ...

Jeff, I have an honest, serious question.

Do you dislike Hillary! because you genuinely take issue with her, or because you believe the Republicans will find it easy to throw mud at her in the general election, thus preventing a Democratic victory?

I ask because if you *do* dislike Hillary! for reasons other than "sharp policy" disagreement, how is that any different from GOP-led "Clinton bashing"?

I think that's the subtext of a lot of the Democratic angst right now about Hillary. You all agree just as much as we Republicans do that she's a flawed candidate and weak presidential timber. Yet, you call it honest doubts or "enthusiasm" for Barack Obama et al., whereas in us, it's just dismissed as "Clinton bashing."

Perhaps-- and call me crazy-- perhaps we actually have, you know, a POINT to our animus towards the Clintons. But to admit that would of course be impossible, because the "narrative" has always been that they're innocent victims of unfair mudslinging.

Alas, maybe you're grappling with the reality that they really aren't that innocent. Here's your chance, your one chance, your LAST chance to clean them out once and for all.

Godspeed Barack Obama, heh.

comment #10

Dirty Harry says ...

Jeff: I think the serious discussion needs to be had with Dems rejectiong Obama because he's black.

And I'm not being disingenous. This Obama/black backlash is based on liberal bigotry. Bigotry against red-staters. A prejudice which pops up on this site daily, especially from Wells himself.

Don't get me wrong, it doesn't bother me. Bigotry is the bigots problem, and this elitist mentality helps us enormously at the ballot box.

comment #11

BNick says ...

Harry,

I've seen you post these sentiments all around these boards lately and I agree with what you're saying.

But isn't it a sign of strength for Obama that there is somehow all this latent support for him that isn't manifesting itself because the potential supporters don't want to elect a losing candidate? Because as soon as he wins a contest in, say, Iowa, this senitment melts away to some extent, and he picks up all these new votes that were on the fence about him before he proved he could win in a red state. Winning begets winning. Just look at John Kerry in 2004.

comment #12

Dirty Harry says ...

BNick: I totally agree. As a neocon Obama scares me because I think he has the best chance of beating any Republican next year. I think this really is a "change election," something the media says every year, but hasn't been true since 1992, and I think Obama represents real change. He's a sincere idealist. Jimmy Carter II.

That being said, I think Edwards or Hillary will also win should they become the nominee, but Obama is the one who would be the toughest to beat.

When I think of all the ways to beat Obama, in other words: what I would do if running the campaign against him, I still see him winning.

The good news in Iraq is very good news for him, as well. If things keep going the way they are over there, come November voters won't have to worry abouyt handing a war over to a newbie. Once hard-core liberals figure this out they might actually start wanting us to win.

comment #13

Luke Y. Thompson says ...

There are rational and irrational reasons for disliking Hillary.

If you dislike her because she seems like a pandering, politics-as-usual type, okay.

If you dislike her because "OMG she's a lesbian who murdered Vince Foster!"...slightly less so.

comment #14

christian says ...

"As a neocon Obama scares me"

Well, as a human neo-cons scare me. Just watch the sociopathic face of the deluded Bill Kristol. A truly creepy man.

Obama is a lightweight. I'm the most flaming progressive around so why doesn't he inspire me? Because it's not enough that he is black and makes good speeches. I don't know where he stands on a number of issues. He may not know yet.

But DH, seriously, you are aware we didn't go into Iraq to win an insurgency battle right? But then, you have your PNAC playbook nearby and going into Iraq was part of a bigger plan to establish dominance in the region. For oil. Like Greenspan admitted.

That's another reason we know what liars BushCheneyRove etc. are.

And you should be more worried about who the GOP is going to run. The choices are looking progressively worse for America. Imagine how many minorities are going to vote for the party demonizing them at every chance. Sane Republicans aren't excited either.

comment #15

Jay T. says ...

I seem to recall Karl Rove's last election strategy falling to pieces as the GOP got their asses handed to them. Perhaps he's not the best authority to turn to at the moment.

The thing is, the way they'll go after Clinton is so predictable and overplayed at this point that it will backfire. Like if Guliani wins the GOP primary and continues to talk about 9/11 (which is now a punchline), that will hurt him in the long run.

comment #16

BNick says ...

Wait LYT, what if you think Hillary is straight but also that she murdered Vince Foster? I guess that means you're so-so on her.

Kudos to DH for freely admitting his neo-con status this late in the game, and on this board. Boy's got guts.

comment #17

Spicer says ...

Obama and Edwards are both better national election candidates than Hillary. She will energize the Republican base no matter who their nominee is. If she has to struggle to win the Democratic nomination she becomes an even weaker national candidate.

comment #18

Dirty Harry says ...

BNick: I'm a proud neocon. A JFK Democrat. A Reagan Republican. A Chickenhawk who, unlike present-day Hollywood, doesn't have to destroy what shames me (our brave troops) in order to live with myself.

I believe this imperfect but good (and often pretty-great) America of ours is a force for good in the world and that it's our moral duty to spread freedom, even if the kind of freedom chosen isn't always ideal (Palestinian territories). That doesn't mean war, but it does mean being aggressive interventionists.

It is immoral for us to sit back enjoying the illusory comfort some stupidly see in the stability of dictators and not do something to liberate the oppressed when we're able to. It also comes back to bite us in the ass as we've seen with terrorism.

comment #19

T. S. Idiot says ...

It'll be Hillary if Atonement wins the Oscar, Obama if Sweeney Todd wins, an unknown factor if anything else wins. All this has been scientifically proven.

comment #20

Lloyd Dobler says ...

If Hillary gets the nomination she will lose and it won't even be close.

Obama and Edwards are easily the two most electable options the Dem Party has. Obama's appeal over comes the negative of him being black. Plus he doesn't come off as being sleazy like Edwards does.

The funny thing is by the time the election takes place the noise from IRAQ will be very low and most voters will turn to other things when making their decsions.

comment #21

Spicer says ...

Lloyd: Thank you! I thought I was alone on the Edwards smarm thing. That guys just seems incredibly sleazy to me, I am not sure why. He's like Bill Clinton without the charm.

comment #22

Dirty Harry says ...

Someone once describe Edwards as "Bill Clinton without having read the books."

Huckabee has been called "Bill Clinton without the bimbo-thing."

comment #23

Dave Polands Gut says ...

Liberals dont have the balls to nominate someone they actually believe in and respect. Otherwise they'd just nominate Kucinich or Obama.

comment #24

christian says ...

"The funny thing is by the time the election takes place the noise from IRAQ will be very low and most voters will turn to other things when making their decsions."

Don't count on it. I recall another visionary LA Times headline before the Kerry/Bush election stating that Iraq was a low priority for voters. Not true at all.

And Edwards would be my pick after Kucinich. Anybody whose favorite film is DR. STRANGELOVE is okay by me.

And the sad fact is that America is filled with bigots who will not vote for a black, a woman or even a mormon. The candidate would have to be far more dynamic than those presently running.

Again, the GOP has a bigger problem. I can listen to a stream of talk radio xenophobia everyday here in LA, filled with racist jabs at a city and state that was owned by Mexicans. Irony!

BTW, we'll probably get a black Republican as president before a Dem.

comment #25

Silverscreenvideos says ...

People like Dz are why Democrats lose election after election. Henry Clay once said, "I'd rather be right than president." People like Dz would rather rail against how unfair the system is and how nasty the Republicans are than win elections.

Barack Obama is nothing more than packaging standard Democratic themes and issues with nice sounding platitudes about "new vision" and "new direction." Whenever he has been challenged to put forth specifics, they usually are badly lacking or inaccurate. The press has given him a good bit of a free pass to date because they've been too busy bashing Hillary, but that will definitely change if he becomes the candidate.

Other "visionary" Democratic candidates of the past like Howard Dean and George McGovern actually stood for things. Barack Obama stands for nothing other than what it will take to get Barack Obama elected president, and that will be his undoing. Barack Obama would be this year's version of Adlai Stevenson, a smooth talking intellectual who deals in platitudes instead of the real world.

This has nothing to do with Obama being black or white. It has a lot to do with him being a lightweight who the Republicans will rip to shreds, especially if they get someone like Huckabee or Romney as their candidate.

Independents hate Bush, but Bush isn't running. The Republicans will do their best in the general election to distance themselves from the name Bush.

John Kennedy was a visionary, but he was also a shrewd, hard nosed, practical politician who had the good sense to get Lyndon Johnson for a vice president so that they could actually get things done, and, ironically, it was only his death that made a lot of his dreams a reality.

Obama is playing right into the Republicans game plan, and, ironically, Hillary has helped him to a certain extent because she tried to stay above the fray in order not to damage the party unnecessarily. She may now have to mix it up more than she wanted to. Obama does not want to debate Hillary on the issues; instead, he wants to spout platitudes about new direction, duck tough votes in Congress and grouse about Hillary.

The Republicans don't have to trot out Harold Ford ads to beat Obama. The mouth breathers who will vote against Obama because he's black will vote against any Democrat. Period. Obama is using his race as a reason for Democrats to look past his shortcomings as a candidate and politician and claim they (and independent voters in the general election) have to support him to show that they aren't closet bigots.

I have voted for black candidates in the past, and I am very proud that my own Congressman, John Lewis, is a genuine liberal and a genuine hero of the civil rights movement. Barack Obama is no John Lewis.

Mind you, the standard Democratic themes and issues would be a vast improvement over what the Republicans will trot out, and Barack Obama will be better than any Republican candidate. But, Obama in the general election looks to be a rerun of Dukakis/Bush I.

comment #26

Arizona Joe says ...

Obama is lightweight. And given his intelligence and life experiences I don't know why this is so. He reminds me of the brilliant law review student without intuition, pragmatism, and cunning.

Recent setbacks in the polls aside, Hillary has a groundswell behind her. However, she is such a lightning rod I believe her candidacy is doomed to failure. The fact she is on the take with big insurance corporations is quintessential Clinton.

I would not vote for Dennis Kucinich. Dennis has been erratic, as mayor of Cleveland and in his personal life, and I cannot support him. However, I do like most of his domestic policies, starting with single payer healthcare.

I hate to say this, but I see Giuliani or Mike Huckabee winning. It would not be all bad, because then the GOP can take the blame for an economic depression, or a conscription war necessitated by terror.

And while I am at, given his education, trial lawyer hardening, and time in front of a camera, isn't it remarkable what a stuffed shirt/ empty suit Fred Thompson is? I would not let that guy run an elevator for me.

He won't do it, but if Al Gore announced he would win in a landslide.

comment #27

Tim says ...

Everyone keeps saying Obama is "lightweight" and that he can't take a fight. This neglects to take into account what's ACTUALLY happening out there. A great example was this strike-back at Hillary from today:

"Obama doesn’t need lectures in political courage from someone who followed George Bush to war in Iraq, gave him the benefit of the doubt on Iran, supported NAFTA and opposed ethanol until she decided to run for president.”

This combined with things like the very politically savvy "Hillary Attacks" section to the Obama website are proving that, day by day, Obama takes a licking and... you know the rest.

comment #28

D.Z. says ...

Paste: "Is that somehow easy to do in DZarro world?"

It's easy to do, if you fund a levee.

Harry: "I think the serious discussion needs to be had with Dems rejectiong Obama because he's black."

We've already had that discussion, and we've come to the conclusion that it's your side which is racist.

"And I'm not being disingenous. This Obama/black backlash is based on liberal bigotry. Bigotry against red-staters."

If you don't like being stereotyped, don't vote Republican. Otherwise, you take responsibility-and any consequential heat-for your choice.

"As a neocon Obama scares me because I think he has the best chance of beating any Republican next year."

Yeah, we really should be concerned about the fears of someone whose ideology has been wrong from the get-go...

"The good news in Iraq is very good news for him, as well."

What good news? That we'll be stuck there indefinitely, because they can't get along?

"If things keep going the way they are over there, come November voters won't have to worry abouyt handing a war over to a newbie."

Yeah, why can't he have the experience of dodging the draft, like the people who came up with this war?

"I'm a proud neocon. A JFK Democrat. A Reagan Republican."

They're not the same fucking thing. A neocon JFK would've started a nuclear war with Russia over Cuba, and a neocon Reagan would've done the same over Afghanistan.

"A Chickenhawk who, unlike present-day Hollywood, doesn't have to destroy what shames me (our brave troops) in order to live with myself."

Being a chickenhawk is already hurting the troops, because they're putting in longer tours to make money for rich, white Republinazis who treat our soldiers as well as they treat children in
sweatshops.

"I believe this imperfect but good (and often pretty-great) America of ours is a force for good in the world and that it's our moral duty to spread freedom, even if the kind of freedom chosen isn't always ideal (Palestinian territories)."

Um, the majority of Palestinians had a chance to vote for freedom last year, and they chose Hamas...

"That doesn't mean war, but it does mean being aggressive interventionists."

You do realize aggressive intervention's why we're in this mess in the first place, right?

"It is immoral for us to sit back enjoying the illusory comfort some stupidly see in the stability of dictators and not do something to liberate the oppressed when we're able to. It also comes back to bite us in the ass as we've seen with terrorism."

So why aren't we cutting off oil with Saudi Arabia?

'Someone once describe Edwards as "Bill Clinton without having read the books."'

At least Edwards can read.

'Huckabee has been called "Bill Clinton without the bimbo-thing."'

Yeah, his Republican buddies prefer gay prostitutes.

christian: "Obama is a lightweight. I'm the most flaming progressive around so why doesn't he inspire me? Because it's not enough that he is black and makes good speeches. I don't know where he stands on a number of issues. He may not know yet."

That's a good thing. He will come up with the best solution that way.

Lloyd: "The funny thing is by the time the election takes place the noise from IRAQ will be very low and most voters will turn to other things when making their decsions."

Wait, we weren't supposed to be getting any noise from Iraq when we invaded. It was supposed to be a "cakewalk". And if you think Iraq's the only reason we voted those bums out, you're really delusional.

Silver: "People like Dz are why Democrats lose election after election."

Huh? Last time I checked, we won the mid-terms and booted Lieberman out of his own party because of people like me.

"People like Dz would rather rail against how unfair the system is and how nasty the Republicans are than win elections."

Yes, being able to have non-corporate voices heard and insuring that minorities have their own rights protected is less important than winning with only 26% of the vote.

'Barack Obama is nothing more than packaging standard Democratic themes and issues with nice sounding platitudes about "new vision" and "new direction."'

Yes, it's bad for him to focus on the issues.

"Whenever he has been challenged to put forth specifics, they usually are badly lacking or inaccurate."

His policies are no more lacking or inaccurate than the "evidence" Hillary and Edwards used to vote to occupy Iraq.

"The press has given him a good bit of a free pass to date because they've been too busy bashing Hillary, but that will definitely change if he becomes the candidate."

Well, of course it will change, because the press is owned by greedy moguls who hate progress.

"Barack Obama would be this year's version of Adlai Stevenson, a smooth talking intellectual who deals in platitudes instead of the real world."

Yes, intellectuals are bad. People who snort coke are good. http://action.credomobile.com/comics/2007/10/its_time_to_check_in_on_parall.html

"This has nothing to do with Obama being black or white."

Sure it does, at least in your case. It's clear that his being black makes him inferior in your eyes.

"It has a lot to do with him being a lightweight who the Republicans will rip to shreds, especially if they get someone like Huckabee or Romney as their candidate."

And Clinton was ripped apart since he ran for President, too. What's your point?

"The Republicans will do their best in the general election to distance themselves from the name Bush."

They've had that chance all year, and I don't see anything new.

"John Kennedy was a visionary, but he was also a shrewd, hard nosed, practical politician who had the good sense to get Lyndon Johnson for a vice president so that they could actually get things done,and, ironically, it was only his death that made a lot of his dreams a reality."

Um, John Kennedy was a guy who used mafia connections to win his only election. Then he subsequently dragged his feet on any actual reform. LBJ set back the progressive movement 30 years, because of the negative reactions to his war in Vietnam.

"Obama is playing right into the Republicans game plan, and, ironically, Hillary has helped him to a certain extent because she tried to stay above the fray in order not to damage the party unnecessarily."

How would using planted reporters be staying above the fray?

"Obama does not want to debate Hillary on the issues;"

He's offered her the opportunity to apologize for her mistakes, and to explain how she'll change for the better, and she's chosen to mouth off the same rhetoric.

"instead, he wants to spout platitudes about new direction,"

Yes, why can't he be like Bush, who, when he was running said he wanted to avoid prolonged wars?

"duck tough votes in Congress"

At least he doesn't vote for the wrong sides of those votes like Hillary.

"and grouse about Hillary."

Everyone's grousing about her-not just him.

"Obama is using his race as a reason for Democrats to look past his shortcomings as a candidate"

Yeah, those damned quotas are the only reason he's gotten where he has today, not because of his own effort or ability. He'll never be able to compete with fellow Aryans like Mike Brown and Harriet Meyers on his own accord.

"and claim they (and independent voters in the general election) have to support him to show that they aren't closet bigots."

And if they don't, they're not bigots?

"I have voted for black candidates in the past,"

Did you vote for Jessie Jackson? Or did you feel his rants against apartheid and cocaine in the ghettos were distracting the real issues?

"and I am very proud that my own Congressman, John Lewis, is a genuine liberal and a genuine hero of the civil rights movement. Barack Obama is no John Lewis."

The civil rights movement was over 40 years ago. What have you done for brothers and sisters since then?

Arizona: "I hate to say this, but I see Giuliani or Mike Huckabee winning. It would not be all bad, because then the GOP can take the blame for an economic depression, or a conscription war necessitated by terror."

It'd be bad, if we got nuked by Russia...

comment #29

jeffmcm says ...

Did all that make you feel better?

comment #30

jeffmcm says ...

Let me add this comment: you are relentlessly negative. I see no evidence of any politician, policy, or public figure that you admire or support. It makes me thing that you have a twisted, shrivelled soul. Surely you don't, right?