comment #1

actionman says ...

Both Stop-Loss and In the Valley of Elah should have done better at the U.S. box office. Excellent films.

The Kingdom should have also done better but I don't consider that an "Iraq" movie.

While I liked Rendition and was impressed with its tricky narrative, I am not surprised it didn't do well in theaters; it's a grim, somber film.

Redacted was NEVER going to make money so I don't understand any arguments that can be made against that film not brining in big-bucks at the box office.

And after watching and enjoying Lions for Lambs last night on dvd, I am surprised that it got killed by most critics with such venom and hostility. Not surprised it didn't do well at the box office (for a variety of reasons), but that doesn't change the fact that it's a thoughtful, intelligent, and patriotic anti-war film made with class and dignity. It was a tad heavy-handed in spots but overall I thought it was crisp and economical storytelling. Cruise was terrific.

Totally unrelated, but just picked up Before the Devil Knows You're Dead on DVD and guess who is quoted on the back of the box!? Nice going, Mr. Wells!

comment #2

berg says ...

A Yank in Viet Nam, 1964
Motor Psycho, 1965
Green Berets, 1968

comment #3

Mr. Gittes says ...

Body of Lies and Imperial Life in the Emerald City/Green Zone will buck the trend of Iraq movies failing critically and financially.

comment #4

actionman says ...

I hope you're right, Mr. Gittes. Looking forward to both of those. Big time.

comment #5

Bilge says ...

Well, I'm sure glad that people are finally coming around to recognizing the greatness of FULL METAL JACKET's last 40%, instead of clinging to this stupid notion that Kubrick's film was simply a great opening act and nothing more.

Also, let's face it, as bad as the Iraq War is, it's not nearly the epic bloodbath that Vietnam turned out to be (not yet, anyway): We've had 44 US deaths in Iraq this month; on average, that's equivalent to the number of US deaths PER DAY in Vietnam in 1968.

It's a morbid thought, but a bloodier war probably makes for better cinema.

comment #6

MAGGA says ...

The problem with Iraq movies is that they try to balance the obvious hatred of the idiotic conflict with "supporting the troops" and finding some value in what the soldiers are doing, while the only honest depiction of the situation would be something along the lines of Dr. Strangelove. The only response to the last eight years is total ridicule and venom. As they said on Real Time last friday, eight years have been completely wasted. In terms of the environment, economy, international solidarity and unity. Nothing has been accomplished, no reason has been applied, the world is so much worse for the actions taken that sarcasm or complete anger seem to be the only reasonable response. The Iraq films are not radical enough in terms of art, and a psychedelic depiction would be redundant. Utter disdain is what is called for.

comment #7

Jay T. says ...

I also think geography plays a huge role in this... Vietnam was a mysterious and beautiful jungle, while Iraq is just hot, sandy and ugly (not that there can't be some beauty found there, but I mean in general). It's interesting that the two best iraq movies so far (Elah and Stop-Loss) take place back home for the most part.

Oh, and I agree that Lions for Lambs was much better than expected after the way most critics ripped into it.

comment #8

corey3rd says ...

It's the lack of the jungle that actually helps in troops wanting to return to Iraq to finish the mission.

We're dealing with a war that isn't merely unpopular - it's a ratings disaster. Nobody cares unless they have a kid over there. Four people died in the green zone and what did the media focus on - Hannah Montana's back and shoulder!

Only Iraq project that sounds promising is "Flowers Girls" about a PsyOps unit. it deals with the joys of a war being fought by marketeers instead of generals. And the men who have to make everyone friendly.

comment #9

BurmaShave says ...

Another element is that while there was intensive media coverage, especially of Tet and Hue, there was still a lot about Vietnam unknown to the average American, whereas everyone feels like they have a pretty good handle on Iraq thanks to 24/7 news coverage. They're wrong of course, which is why I think Greengrass' EMERALD CITY could be one of the first real breakthrough Iraq War pictures.

comment #10

D.Z. says ...

Speaking of jungle, why do people like FMJ, when it features a fire-fight in a warehouse? Not to mention that none of the soldiers in the film are drafted. When Rambo gets it more historically accurate than Kubrick, you know FMJ has failed.

Oh, and regardless of whether the films are pro-war or anti-war, they don't really give you the Iraqi perspective. The ones which do (Farenheit 9/11 and Three Kings) were also the most successful. Coincidence? I doubt it, since that's the one thing we don't get from the media.

But if we're going to go non-political, Black Hawk Down and Saving Private Ryan worked, because they first focused on an objective for the soldiers, and then went for the atmosphere. Of course, you could argue that that kind of thing was what killed Apocalypse Now during its initial box office run, but the problem with that film was that it pushed the objective to the back of the picture, instead of getting to it first.

comment #11

Dave Polands Gut says ...

Heres the reason why Iraq themed films havent made a dime.

They aren't good films.

Entertaining an audience isnt against the rules people.

comment #12

corey3rd says ...

Three Kings didn't exactly set the box office on fire. Anyone buy a house in Malibu on their Three Kings points?

The most popular Vietnam-era military entertainment was Gomer Pyle. Five years and it went out on top. People wanted to laugh at Marines without going into the jungle. Even on Hogan's Heroes they spoke of sending the Nazis to the Russian front. Not once did Sgt. Carter declare he was shipping Gomer out to Nam. America embraces denial and myths. It's not that we know everything about Iraq, but we quietly realize that we are helpless in doing anything about it - so just ignore it.

comment #13

Edward says ...

You could argue that "Saving Private Ryan" didn't work. After an amazing opening on Omaha Beach, the film became a cliche of past war films.

Interesting that the firefight in the warehouse in FMJ is what might be considered an accurate depiction of some of the warfare in Iraq. Why does a war film about a specific war have to be historically accurate? Did FMJ fail? Maybe at the box office, but it's relevant and watchable today, maybe more than it was when it was first released.

comment #14

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

"Speaking of jungle, why do people like FMJ, when it features a fire-fight in a warehouse?"

Because it's set in Hue. (Which had a number of buildings by the same architect who did the Brixton Gas Works where they shot it, or so the publicity said at the time.)

"Not to mention that none of the soldiers in the film are drafted. When Rambo gets it more historically accurate than Kubrick, you know FMJ has failed."

Oh dear. He really did just say that.

FMJ is about the Marines. They don't draft Marines. You have to volunteer (unless God miracles your ass into it). By your rule, the only branch of the service they can make a movie about is the Army.

comment #15

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

Sorry, Beckton Gas Works.

comment #16

Movie Watcher says ...

DZ of course the soldiers were drafted. You knew that, didn't you? Will the war drag on so long that there will be ANOTHER DRAFT? I hope not. And why does the "president" not allow the media to show the dead soldiers returning home in caskets? I think a lot of people just don't give a shit about this war. I think more people cared about vietnam than this one.

comment #17

Arizona Joe says ...

"I think more people cared about Vietnam than this one. "

That is an insightful comment. The average citizen surely conceives and thinks about this war in a different way. We are a country of rugged individuals speeding in heavy trucks while young men die for oil.

I found the disquieting message of "Valley of Elah" was that we as a country have changed. The moral makeup of the soldiers was much different than WWII or Vietnam. The question is whether our changed character as a nation gave rise to Iraq and our apathetic reaction to it? Or has Iraq corrupted us?

FMJ - the UK sets aside, a great movie. It dramatized the dehumanization of the soldiers. Is that the natural way of the armed services, or a function of Vietnam?

The way drill sargent Lee Ermey invoked the name of Oswald and the Univ of Texas assassin. "Where did they learn to shoot like that? In the Marine Corps."

Disturbing. I thought most of those guys were the tough but caring types like Warren Oates' Sgt. Hulka.

comment #18

D.Z. says ...

Edward: "Why does a war film about a specific war have to be historically accurate?"

Because Americans take it as fact, and then somehow they start believing they can win wars in deserts without worrying about blowback....?

corey: "Three Kings didn't exactly set the box office on fire."

No, but it was Clooney's first hit, and it did fairly well for a non-CG film.

"Did FMJ fail? Maybe at the box office, but it's relevant and watchable today, maybe more than it was when it was first released."

It's relevant if you're into cop films masquerading as war films.

Mgmax: "Because it's set in Hue."

Still doesn't look like it to me... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hu%E1%BA%BF

"They don't draft Marines. You have to volunteer (unless God miracles your ass into it). "

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080301111442AABcQqE

Also from http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761552642&pn=4
:
...When the first U.S. combat troops arrived in Vietnam in 1965 they were composed mainly of volunteers. The Air Force, Navy, and Marines were volunteer units. The escalating war, however, required more draftees...

Movie Watcher: Yes, I knew that, but would anyone born after Vietnam know that? Especially when they would have relied on MTV for information. I read about history whenever I can, but other people in my generation are not necessarily that dedicated.

comment #19

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

Well, that's not the most authoritative source I ever saw, but, to get Clintonian for a moment, it may depend on precisely what "draft" means-- my dad did basically what one of the posters describes, which is, he enlisted in the Marines rather than be drafted into the Army. So technically he wasn't drafted into the Marines, but de facto, he might as well have been.

What were you linking to on Encarta? I can't tell what's supposed to be relevant.

comment #20

D.Z. says ...

Part VI.

comment #21

Jay T. says ...

Mgmax makes a solid point -- my father and two of his brothers enlisted in the navy & marines to avoid being drafted by the army. So technically they weren't drafted, but they really were.

comment #22

Edward says ...

DZ: Because Americans take it as fact, and then somehow they start believing they can win wars in deserts without worrying about blowback....?

DZ what are Americans taking as fact? I doubt many Americans think they can win in Iraq.

Maybe I'm naive, but do people who watch historically-based films take them as fact?

comment #23

moviemaniac2002 says ...

"In The Valley Of Elah" - after finally seeing it, understood completely why it failed. Nobody, but nobody was getting on board with this movie's
message...that the war was turning clean-cut
American kids into kill-crazy psychos. I don't care how superb the acting was, the film's premise
was repulsive and false.

"Rendition" What idiots these film-makers were,
cluttering up their film with their oh-so-clever
third act time twist. So at the exact moment when
they should be engaging and gripping their
audience, the audience goes "Huh?" What?"

"The Kingdom" - The absolute abyss of cynical
demoralized studio thinking...let's dazzle 'em with
Cowboys 'N Arabs fireworks, then we'll have
the film grow a consience in the last line of dialogue.

"Redacted" Are you kidding me? Di Palma?
The only thing missing was Sissy Spacek
telepathically flinging kitchen knives at the Iragis.

"Lions For Lambs" Oddly enough, I though this was the best of the bunch...and yet the most critically reviled of them all. Sharply written,
and brilliantly cast....with an arrogant Repulbican
dickhead played by an arrogant Scientology
dickhead,

comment #24

D.Z. says ...

Edward: They took as fact that Vietnam was a voluntary war which we "could have" won, and did actually do well in, in spite of evidence to the contrary. And if Americans didn't think they could win in Iraq, they would have not voted for Bush in '04. (Or chosen to have their votes stolen, depending on your POV.)

moviemaniac: How is Elah's premise false, when suicide and domestic violence rates are up with Iraq vets? Not to mention there's a recent article which shows that we're now hiring ex-cons violent offenses on their rap sheets as soldiers.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/04/21/ST2008042103473.html

comment #25

corey3rd says ...

what's wrong with sending killers into a warzone? They're self-starters. Why not turn Iraq into the new Georgia. Georgia has done well for itself - especially being a former penal colony.

comment #26

Jay T. says ...

"that the war was turning clean-cut American kids into kill-crazy psychos. I don't care how superb the acting was, the film's premise was repulsive and false."

And also based on a TRUE story. Besides, that wasn't the point of the movie. The point was that the war is FUCKING UP the minds of a young generation of kids, not that they're kill crazy. A recent study showed over 300,000 iraq troops have been diagnosed with depression and/or PTSD.

comment #27

moviemaniac2002 says ...

Let me clarify something on my opinion of "Elah"
..I spent over six months working in Junction City
Kansas, a tiny town adjacent to the Army base
Fort Riley. And I had the opporutnity to meet, talk,
socialize and establish long term(and now long
distance) friendships with the young people who've become Bush's cannon fodder. My heart
broke as I listened to their stories....as these kids
spent literally years being bounced back and forth between Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yes, I'm aware "Elah" is based on a true incident,.and yes I'm aware that .many of these
young men and women are coming back scarred
in every way from the experience (both in mind
and body...not that Bush and his coward-in-chief
Cheney will ever lose a minute's sleep over it)
But I'm also aware that these soldiers are the most
decent, dedicated, courageous people I've ever met....and having met and talked with so many of
them, pardon me if I choose not to swallow Paul
Haggis' dose of "Elah" castor oil.

comment #28

D.Z. says ...

corey: I'd imagine sending felons into Iraq is like letting the fox guard the hen house.

moviemaniac: Tim McVeigh was a decent guy until the Gulf War, too.

comment #29

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comment #30

dd says ...

Let me clarify something on my opinion of "Elah"
..I spent over six months working in Junction City
Kansas, a tiny town adjacent to the Army base
Fort Riley. And I had the opporutnity to meet, talk,
socialize and establish long term(and now long
distance) friendships with the young people who've become Bush's cannon fodder. My heart
broke as I listened to their stories....as these kids
spent literally years being bounced back and forth between Iraq and Afghanistan.
Yes, I'm aware "Elah" is based on a true incident,.and yes I'm aware that .many of these

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comment #31

dd says ...

And after watching and enjoying Lions for Lambs last night on dvd, I am surprised that it got killed by most critics with such venom and hostility. Not surprised it didn't do well at the box office (for a variety of reasons), but that doesn't change the fact that it's a thoughtful, intelligent, and patriotic anti-war film made with class and dignity. It was a tad heavy-handed in spots but overall I thought it was crisp and economical storytelling. Cruise was terrific.

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comment #32

miksol says ...

right it is too early to shoot Iraq movies, you need some distance and self reflection
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comment #33

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