comment #1

nemo says ...

"And smart guys never, ever marry women who are nines or tens because they're more trouble than they're worth."

Sounds like a man who speaks from bitter experience.

comment #2

MiraJeffAICN says ...

Jeff, what is so hard for you to believe. Guys date for looks. Women date for a combination of brains, money and funny. If I consider myself a 7, I want a girl who's an 8, and she may be attracted to me b/c of my intelligence and sense of humor. Guys do not want to date someone a) funnier than them or b) smarter than them. We don't like feeling dumb, because that's a blow to our macho egos, and we already take those from time to time since it's inevitable that we will make dumb decisions or say something dumb eventually. Guys want a challenge, so we date up. Women want to have the upper hand, so they date down so their mate feels especially lucky to be with them and thus, won't have thoughts of straying. At least that's the way I see things from my 24-year point of view. Obviously I don't have the relationship experience you might, having been married and all, but still, the guys in these Apatow movies are roughly my age, and we bring more to the table than just looks, if we're fortunate enough to bring those.

comment #3

George Prager says ...

Why did Mary McCarthy hook up with Edmund Wilson?

comment #4

George Prager says ...

This is the thing: schlumpy men are obsessed with beauty. Beautiful women think their beauty is no big deal.

comment #5

corey3rd says ...

because every woman secretly wants to marry Shemp

comment #6

bdboudreaux says ...

Ok, I've kind of held my tongue on this for a while, but I'll speak up because I'm bored really. My wife is definitely more attractive than me. I mean it's actually a bit of a running joke with co-workers, associates, etc. that usually when I introduce her I'm often asked "wow, how did she end up with you?" My pat reply tends to be "well I got her pregnant before she realized her mistake" or "yeah, kind of wonder that myself." I mean I'm really the Seth Rogen stereotype to the letter. Could lose probably 30lbs or so pounds and it wouldn't be a bad thing. Dress in jeans and goofy t-shirts. Love movies and to play x-box. But I also have a good sense of humor, shower my wife with love and praise, and am very active in our kids daily lives while working hard to support and care for my family. So yeah Jeff, it happens. Us schlubs can, if we're really lucky, end up with beautiful, intelligent, successful women. Oh and for the record my wife says that the reason she's with me is because she knows that when I say I love her I truly mean it and because I talk to her and listen as well. Oh, and also for the record we've been married for coming up on 10 years now, so I'm speaking from experience.

comment #7

val says ...

Do people really walk down the street going, you're a 7 no thanks, you're an 8 maybe? I mean do people actually think that? like with ratings and everything, cause I may have done it jokingly with my friends at a bar.. but is never crossed my mind walking down the mall.

comment #8

Jay T. says ...

What I think is so ridiculous about this whole debate is how people act like Jeff is WAY off, when in reality he's probably just a little bit off.

I don't think the nines with nines, eights with eights theory is accurate, but it's still more realistic than Katherine Heigl hooking up with Seth Rogen. Typically women who would rate a 7, 8, 9 or 10 do definitely go a little below themselves... but not dramatically.

I used to live in an area with a lot of girls you'd say were a 9 or 10 and a whole bunch of solid 8's, and typically you'd see them with guys who were a 7 or 8... so definitely not as good looking, but not ridiculously out of their league, either.

comment #9

zoey says ...

What I find hard to believe about the Apatow model is not the good-looking woman hooking up with a "schlumpy" guy, but rather the good-looking successful woman hooking up with the schlumpy, guy with no prospects and no money.

You can't argue with biology. A great-looking, fertile, young woman who can get just about anyone is not going to carry a guy's genetic material into furture generations unless that guy has the power and/or money to protect and provide for his family and the inclination to stick around. Anything else I think is pure accident (as in Knocked Up) or male fantasy.

Of course the same can be true of the reverse... an older, powerful, wealthy man going for a woman of his own age? Fantasy also.

comment #10

Jay T. says ...

Val -- I don't think anyone really does that, using the 1 - 10 scale (which is really ridiculous if you think about it, wouldn't 1 - 5 make more sense?) is merely a useful way to have this discussion.

comment #11

Arizona Joe says ...

"Birds of a feather flock together." Wells is correct. And that is just not personal opinion. Like does dissolve like.

Scientific studies done by psychologists through the years have continually shown that couples of comparable looks, beauty and handsomeness of equal magnitude, hook up long term more often than not.

Although I think men have more of an ability to trade up. The old bromide about men being judged on what they do, and women being judged on how they look still probably has some truth. But if you want beauty and you are a schlubb, you had better be a hedge fund trader, Tony Soprano, or an NFL lineman.

Also, beautiful women do indeed think their beauty is a big deal. They know they have the power, "the power of beauty," as Preston Sturges often said.

In addition, psychological studies show that even hetero women prefer to be with beautiful women. Psychologists hypothesize this has to do with some sort of ability to attract a men as a group.

The only place I have seen where females were not concerned with looks was at a girls prep school. They were pallid, greazy-haired, and had faces reflective of perspiration and sebaceous pores.

No boys were around, and nothing was on the table, save for admission to a top university. The Humbert Humbert in me tacitly called them, "Mere mechanisms of haphazard lust."

Real life is so interesting. Hence, why waste two hours in Judd Apatow's world?

comment #12

iamjoe says ...

Actually, what I will agree with, and it's going to get me into a little bit of shit it this: the Nine and Tens are just not worth it.
Just dated a solid nine, and the array of issues and drama there was purely insane. The need for attention, the constant check on appearance, all of it. It's really men's fault, because we condition these nine and tens to this by constantly focusing both good and bad attention on them. Also that some guy is always trying to poke his way in. But Jeff is right, just not worth it.
I'm going to hell for this one.

comment #13

rr3333 says ...

Angie's 10 times hotter than Brad. See, I've disproved Jeff's theory!

comment #14

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

"What I find hard to believe about the Apatow model is not the good-looking woman hooking up with a "schlumpy" guy, but rather the good-looking successful woman hooking up with the schlumpy, guy with no prospects and no money."

Bingo! Someone finally hits on the truth, it's the video gaming loser part, not the schlumpitude, that drives off the pulchritude. All I have to do to disprove Jeff's theory about 5 and 6 guys never landing 7 and 8 women is attend my wife's law school reunions. Aka "Short Jewish Guys and The Tall Shiksas Who Love Them."

comment #15

Edward says ...

Mgmax, at least you didn't have to go to your wife's Adventist High School Reunion...Yikes!

comment #16

K. Bowen says ...

What I find hard to believe about the Apatow model is not the good-looking woman hooking up with a "schlumpy" guy, but rather the good-looking successful woman hooking up with the schlumpy, guy with no prospects and no money.

This is close to correct. I've known women who dated below their looks. But it's almost always to a guy who has his shit together.

THe hard part of Knocked Up to believe isnt the disparity in looks, but the fact that a successful woman would tie her fortunes to the a complete loser.

comment #17

K. Bowen says ...

I don't think it necessarily needs to be money/power, though. The man could be a successful writer. if that's what she likes. But having success and having yiour shit together is necessary.

comment #18

Dzayson says ...

Hey guys, maybe I'm just old fashioned (or a bleeding heart), but it seems to me that no one really enjoys having their teeth kicked in- and to do that to another person is shameful The minute I saw the pic Jeff posted of himself in that group, I knew the message board was going to light up like a pinball machine. Not because he looks like hell, but because every goddamn person is so quick to jump to meanspiritedness (is that a word? whothefuckknows) that we relish the opportunity to needle someone.

Yes, Jeff is a typical fiftysomething guy. Who wears NIKE shit. And perhaps doesn't have Brad Pitt's abs. Oh fuck, hold on to your hats!! His criticism of the chubby, schlubby fast foot nation has less to do with their physical appearence and more to do with their overall decision to zone out, opt for whatever is quick and easy, and ignore the real shit. That kind of mentality makes you chubby. In the gut, sure, but moreso in the head.

Oh and also, if any HE readers want to post pics of THEIR six-pack abs and 24-inch biceps, feel free.

comment #19

Luke Y. Thompson says ...

Dzayson, be careful what you ask for...

http://lytrules.com/pictures/index.php?action=showfull&vpic=6&gll=1&tpic=1&maxp=48&page=1

(do not click this link on a full stomach)

comment #20

Zac Bertschy says ...

What the hell is a "galumph"?

Also, Mr. Wells, isn't going on and on about this basically inviting the internet to rip your physical appearance apart? Whether or not that's fair at all - which it isn't, really, since you're remarking on a broad social trend; you never once said that you yourself belong in a starring role as the guy shtupping Katherine Heigl - is beside the point. I just question the wisdom, especially since this is the exact sort of thing that will discredit you with a chunk of your readers and make you look like a hypocrite.

Even if you're not.

comment #21

Rich S. says ...

As I am sure someone has already pointed out in this discussion (though not this thread), Judd Apatow was able to bag Leslie Mann. So he speaks from experience in these matters. Their recent interview in Entertainment Weekly about their courtship sounds suspiciously like the classic Apatow plot.

However, Apatow was a successful writer/producer by the time they met. So that does kind of validate zoey and mgmax's observations above.

And in the yanked thread, all I teased Jeffrey about was the fact that he had not appeared to comb his hair. When you're as picky about appearance as Jeffrey is (remember the thread about the shoes?), I think clothing and grooming are completely fair game.

comment #22

calraigh says ...

Jesus what an inane discussion.You guys are all over 20 right?I think trying to find a man who doesn't think in ''9's, 8's, 7's'' terms is maybe a defining factor in deciding on a partner.

And for the record, speaking as a woman who has been regularly told, to her face and by other sources I'm not bashful to admit, that she's hot, I think Judd Apatow and Jason Segel are hot.The pictures on Getty of the Forgetting Sarah Marshall premiere are testament to this.Apatow in particular looks yowza! in my opinion and himself and Leslie Mann are a smokin' couple.

comment #23

christian says ...

Blog sites work from the top down. Much as I love Jeff, I find his repeated insults on those physically different from him bizarre and intended solely to demean. Calling his audience names, then asking for their help, then back to saying he "hates" many of us despite the grace and goodwill we showed to his sister's passing brings on the The Taking of Shit. When you insult people, get ready to be insulted back. Jeff knows this. Unless he thinks of himself as Don Rickles. In that case, I'm a hockey puck.

comment #24

Richardson says ...

The Apatow movies are not popular because they are literally factual or true in that sense. They are popular because they *feel* true. A guy who falls in love feels like his girlfriend is incredibly beautiful, and that he didn't have his shit together before he met her.

And, Jeff, your girlfriend is not going to be flattered when you keep saying that people should only date within their number; you're supposed to *tell* her that she's far more beautiful than you should be able to get, even if it's not true.

comment #25

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

"I think trying to find a man who doesn't think in ''9's, 8's, 7's'' terms is maybe a defining factor in deciding on a partner."

Well said. Thinking of all women on a strictly linear scale is only one step above the guy in Adaptation whose entire viewpoint is "I'd fuck her in the ass!"

I have a much more complex system, sort of like the Myers-Briggs test, and only date within two of the four quadrants.

comment #26

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

(that last statement was purely for comedic purposes, dear)

comment #27

calraigh says ...

Yeah, gotcha.Just 'cos I'm hot doesn't mean I am not possessed of a sense of humour.Despite the fact that you're no Steve Martin yourself!

MiraJeffAICN: Maybe the most depressing thing I've ever read.I don't live in a world like that because I choose not to, not because 'that's the way it is.' I think Los Angeles has an awful lot to answer for in terms of how it influences men and women and how they relate to each other.The end result seems to be for women,if you remove all your body hair, paint yourself orange, dye your hair blond, whittle yourself down to a size 2(or below) and look good in a bikini,only open your mouth to spurt inanities and to respond to what your male cohort says, you'll be regarded as 'hot'.For men, they need to develop their upper body to the detriment of the rest of their body, paint themselves orange,get a stylist and get their teeth whitened.That about it Jeff?

comment #28

Mgmax, le Corbeau says ...

Um, you weren't the dear I was addressing.

comment #29

christian says ...

I'm moving to Ireland where the women are hot and cool.

comment #30

Rich S. says ...

Ever been to Ireland, christian? Your statement is no exaggeration. It's no less true of Scotland, in my experience.

comment #31

christian says ...

I come from Irish background and the lasses I've met here and in Europe share this cool quality. I'm going at some point this year.

comment #32

Jay T. says ...

In defense of Jeff, I actually sent him the link to this article because it happened to be featured on the main page of Yahoo... so it's not like he went fishing for it.

I think we can put an end to this discussion with a simple formula for a man's chance to land a woman...

Looks are worth a possible 5 and success (be it money or just being accomplished in a field) is worth a possible 5. So in theory, these two men could land the same woman:

Looks 5/5 & Success 2/5 = 7/10
Looks 2/5 & Success 5/5 = 7/10

comment #33

calraigh says ...

Mgmax:Erm, apologies, looked that way to me at first glance.

Jay T: You obviously don't get out much if you think applying mathematical principles to the concept of dating a real-life woman is going to get you anywhere.But it might get you somewhere with Jeff, which I suspect is the motivation behind anyone who's defending him in this matter.

Christian and Rich S.: Everything you've heard is true...

comment #34

Jay T. says ...

calraigh -- don't be an idiot, you don't know a thing about me. You're right, I don't do so well with single women because I'm already married.

And if you had actually READ what I wrote, you'd realize that the equation I presented (which wasn't exactly advanced math to anyone who advanced past middle school) pretty much goes against what Jeff is saying. My very obvious point was that success and looks are about equal for a man's eligibility. Sorry if those big scary numbers confused you...