comment #1

BurmaShave says ...

This is why you don't let broadcast networks handle debates.

comment #2

Captain Easychord says ...

You need to get a DVR Jeff. It will change your life.

comment #3

scooterzz says ...

direct tv allows you to purchase the east coast abc network feed for $3 a month..... it's a nice feature....

comment #4

christian says ...

And this debate brought to you by Verizon Wireless!

The Land of the Free Market!

comment #5

Coltrane says ...

Jeff,

You can watch it live online at

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/index

comment #6

clancy says ...

This is simply not to be believed - I almost think you must be making some sort of mistake, Jeff--- this isn't American Fucking Idol - this is news, major news, and the West Coast has the right to get its news live and as it happens... the network is treating this debate like its an entertainment event. CNN, MSNBC, even those blowhards at FOX would never pull a stunt like this. If this is ow its going to be, the commercial networks should not be allowed to carry the debates.... are you sure you are correct about this. It makes no sense.

comment #7

Coltrane says ...

Jeff,

You can watch it live online at

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/index

Courtesy the Field at http://ruralvotes.com/thefield

comment #8

Geoff says ...

I woke up this morning and tried to schedule my DVR for 5 or 6 o'clock. It said the debate was at 8 so I recorded that. I soon realized the problem so I contacted some friends and they all confirmed it.

I'm shocked they would do this.

comment #9

Mumbleboy says ...

Thanks for the online link to the debates. I heard about the delay earlier today and have been searching for the online equivalent.

As the debates are a big part of our political process you should always be able to stay up to date through the net.

comment #10

gruver1 says ...

Wells to Coltrane: Thanks, man! Much appreciated.

comment #11

Edward Havens says ...

Seriously, does anyone really give a fuck outside of Pennsylvania about this debate? What could either of them possibly say that is different from what they've been saying for a year and a half now?

I would really love to see one national primary in June and one general election in November, just so this incessant never-ending chatter could subside.

comment #12

christian says ...

The networks have all forgotten that THEY DON'T OWN THE AIRWAVES. They have a license to SERVE THE PUBLIC.

And they have failed. Repeatedly.

comment #13

Mgmax says ...

Actually, Edward, it's been a pretty good tough debate so far. Tough questions, reasonably good answers-- that exchange on Bill Ayres and the Weather Underground was very strong (and nasty). If you believe that what does not kill your candidate makes him or her stronger, this is probably the harshest, and therefore best, debate for the Dems so far.

comment #14

christian says ...

Go here for this shameful pathetic debate moderated by the real elitsts: the millionaires in the corporate media who get to dictate the empty tv wrestling discourse.

ABC is actually callling this "Obama Versus Clinton."

Jesus Christ we're fucked.

http://a.abclocal.go.com/wpvi/livemedia?section=news/politics&id=6083174

comment #15

christian says ...

I can't stand to hear the pompous editorializing of Charlie Gibson, who actually said that he knows that EVERY AMERICAN is saying a prayer today for the victims of Virginia Tech.

I'd be on my knees for any candidate who say, "Who died and made you king?"

comment #16

bill says ...

welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!
welcome to wealthykiss dot co m!

comment #17

christian says ...

Apparently the moderators were BOO'd at the end by the audience. Bravo!

No, Mgmax. That was a terrible debate. An hour before any question on Iraq? Weather Underground? Ayres? This is the burning issue of our time? Looks like hack Stephanopolous listened to the advice of fellow whore Hannity.

Happily, the ABC message boards are swamped with apropos outrage from the real people, not the smug media elites who think it's their job to deliver the corporate gospel.

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/DemocraticDebate/comments?type=story&id=4666956

comment #18

Geoff says ...

Horrible debate.

I think Obama did very well though in defending himself.

comment #19

Herpesdating says ...

Obama is a very kind man. I knew that he offered many helps to the girls girl on our positive dating site last year.

comment #20

PoisonSkin says ...

which one of these clowns will finally get to loose to old man McCain?

stay tuned america. enjoy the race

comment #21

Edward says ...

I saw part of McCain's speech yesterday and he had some interesting things to say, things I as a Democrat could agree with, but there's something about the man that bugs me. I couldn't put my finger on it at the time, then I saw part of an Obama speech and realized that McCain has been coached on how to act Presidential, he's a much better speaker than Bush, but McCain is stiff, uncomfortable, because he's not being himself.

Obama can be a great public speaker, but he also has a relaxed quality. He's comfortable showing America who he is in a much more natural way then McCain. I also like how he admits he's not perfect, that he'll make mistakes.

Clinton isn't quite the relaxed, natural presenter that Obama is, but she doesn't come off as the stiff, uncomfortable person McCain seems to be.

comment #22

Craptastic says ...

Good point, Christian...

When I saw "Obama vs. Clinton" I laughed like hell. Then became sad. Tim Robbins is right.

I loath that the media is turning this into a fucking prize fight. ABC turned into Fox for 2 hours. All we needed was a frickin' lie detector.

It's been said left and right that a Obama/Clinton (reverse it) ticket will never happen because there's too much bad blood but now it's become inevitable.

It will happen.

comment #23

christian says ...

Thank God that ABC/Disney's pathetic attempt to entertain us with their broadcast buffoons has been nationally called out by Tom Shales, KO, and "bitter" journalists in Philly:

"With your performance tonight -- your focus on issues that were at best trivial wastes of valuable airtime and at worst restatements of right-wing falsehoods, punctuated by inane "issue" questions that in no way resembled the real world concerns of American voters -- you disgraced my profession of journalism, and, by association, me and a lot of hard-working colleagues who do still try to ferret out the truth, rather than worry about who can give us the best deal on our capital gains taxes. But it's even worse than that. By so badly botching arguably the most critical debate of such an important election, in a time of both war and economic misery, you disgraced the American voters, and in fact even disgraced democracy itself. Indeed, if I were a citizen of one of those nations where America is seeking to "export democracy," and I had watched the debate, I probably would have said, "no thank you." Because that was no way to promote democracy.

You implied throughout the broadcast that you wanted to reflect the concerns of voters in Pennsylvania. Well, I'm a Pennsylvanian voter, and so are my neighbors and most of my friends and co-workers. You asked virtually nothing that reflected our everyday issues -- trying to fill our gas tanks and save for college at the same time, our crumbling bridges and inadequate mass transit, or the root causes of crime here in Philadelphia. In fact, there almost isn't enough space -- and this is cyberspace, where room is unlimited -- to list all the things you could have asked about but did not, from health care to climate change to alternative energy to our policy toward China to the deterioration of Afghanistan to veterans' benefits to improving education. You ignored virtually everything that just happened in what most historians agree is one of the worst presidencies in American history, including the condoning of torture and the trashing of the Constitution, although to be fair you also ignored the policy concerns of people on the right, like immigration issues."

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/An_open_letter_to_Charlie_Gibson_and_George_Stephanapoulos.html

comment #24

BurmaShave says ...

christian, it's nice to know someone else gets drunk and reads KOS. I mean that sincerely haha.

comment #25

Mgmax says ...

Oh, the fury that for once the media wasn't in the tank for Obama and the Dems generally, but actually threw tough, unfair questions from the other side!

A taste of what outliers from the liberal consensus have to deal with every day in our monoculture. If only they'd had some college sophomore calling them fascists every twenty seconds, it would have been like a normal day on the internet for me.

I repeat my point: this debate was the best preparation for the general election the Dems have been afforded yet. Syria or Iran won't throw softballs like Chris Matthews or Jim Lehrer does, either.

comment #26

BurmaShave says ...

Mgmax I would half agree, but I'd have to imagine even a debate against McCain would have dealth with Health Care and Trade more. Plus it was just a piece of shit TV show, I'm sure you noticed how poorly directed it was.

comment #27

Mgmax says ...

I was doing dishes, so I didn't really notice the mise-en-scene.

comment #28

George Prager says ...

Transcript
1960 Presidential Debate in Philadelphia

PARTICIPANTS:
SENATOR HILLARY TRUMAN
VICE PRESIDENT RICHARD M. NIXON

MODERATORS:
CHARLIE GIBSON, ABC NEWS
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS

LOCATION: THE NATIONAL CONSTITUTION CENTER, PHILADELPHIA

CHARLIE GIBSON: Mr. Nixon, during your famous "Checkers" speech, you remarked that your wife doesn't have a fur coat, but she does have a good Republican cloth coat. Since then, several newspapers have reported that she does own a fur coat...

VICE PRESIDENT NIXON: Yes, she does.

CHARLES GIBSON: When did she get this fur coat?

VICE PRESIDENT NIXON: let me make this perfectly clear, my wife has more than one coat, and the fur coat was purchased several years after the 1952 election...

CHARLES GIBSON: Senator Clinton, do you wish to respond?

SENATOR CLINTON: Let me just say that I do not own a fur coat, and when I saw Mr. Nixon's speech, I was disappointed when he referred to Mrs. Nixon's coat as a "good Republican cloth" coat, since I own two cloth coats...good Democratic cloth coats that I still own to this day, so I think it is important for everyone to know that Democrats own cloth coats, and the fact that Mrs. Nixon owns a fur coat...

comment #29

Dave Polands Gut says ...

This is the debate that shows voters they cannot vote for elitist far out liberals.

This is why liberals dont win general elections.

I love how Hillary fessed up to blatantly lying.

Things will only get harder for Obama. When he actually for real has to explain his far left feelings, racist pastors, friendships with terrorists like ayers, no military experience, no bipartisan bills, etc

comment #30

Movie Watcher says ...

Who gives a damn about the debates? They all have their canned/talking points/propaganda prepared, and they probably won't slip up. It's the same old shit over and over again. I will watch when Ole Johnny Mac debates...Hillary? Obama? I will be interested to watch, but not vote. Hey, I like the circus!

comment #31

SaveFarris says ...

Burma, a debate between McCain and [Insert Democratic Here] on Health Care & Trade would be worth watching because the 2 parties actually disagree with each other. There's not a nickel's worth of difference on those particular issues between Hillary and Barack, so why waste everyone's time "arguing" about stuff they agree on? Or did you not the previous 417 debates?

comment #32

christian says ...

Mgmax, by what criterion do you judge a prez debate by? An hour of questions that have nothing to do with our daily lives or futures as Americans?

Funny to hear you defend the media elites like Gibson, who was aghast at the idea that a family "only" making 200,000 a year might have to pay more taxes. Well, we know what Gibson worries about at night under his million dollar contracts.

The debate was a disaster. Not just because they ganged-up on Obama with assist from ABC ass-clown Hannity providing an unresearched "gotcha" question, but because it shows the fundamental lack of insight the corporations in charge of our public airwaves have as to American's needs.

Too bad these "hardball" questions never got asked to Bush in his time. But I'm sure you would have been outraged had all of Bush's drug and alcohol abuse had been the focus of an hour of debate questions. I mean, are you proud to be such a company man?

comment #33

Mgmax says ...

Oh Christian, stop being such a little pisher. Your outrage is exactly what I'm talking about. The presidency is a hard fuckin' job, and anybody seeking it better be able to handle last night and a lot worse. Obama's been handled up to now like he was going to be on the cover of Tiger Beat. I love how the "Rumsfeld shook hands with Saddam! Bush's family had dealings with BinLaden's family and the Nazis!" crowd are now aghast that Obama is being quizzed about his association with a bomb-throwing psycho from the 60s, not to mention the Reverend Ravamiah Lunatic. Tough titty, kiddies. Cry me a fucking Potomac, and then let's see if Chance the Gardener can really walk across it.

comment #34

christian says ...

Since you deliberately make it your goal to "not get it" Mgmax, my complaint with the debate wasn't about Obama's performance (since I'm clearly not one of those blinded by his light) and in fact, Clinton DID do better than Obama. Even Andy Sully had to admit that.

But a debate aimed at PA voters should reflect some of their concerns, no? It's not the media's job to insert themselves in as judge and jury of trivia, especially when it comes from a source like ABC/Disney, whose ethical/political cowardice is already well-known. Look under, "Firing Maher, Bill."

The people in PA are not "bitter" over Obama's take on flag pins or Clinton's trip to Bosnia. They're bitter about the war, the economy and our future. Since you've shown a repeated lack of ability to critique our present recession except with bon mots like "In 1956, the economy was much tougher." I don't expect you to have much insight into the actual problems of our nation, inasmuch as you refuse to shoulder any blame for eight years of Bush.

Obama's association with a bomb-throwing psycho? As he pointed out, he was eight years old. And George Stephanopoulos telling Hannity that he was taking down his questions is sickening. Hannity hangs with a Nazi preacher. Fact. And if you want to gild the lily with guilt by association, Bush and Cheney are true war and economic criminals. But they got a free media ride. They still do.

comment #35

christian says ...

"Seriously, does anyone really give a fuck outside of Pennsylvania about this debate? What could either of them possibly say that is different from what they've been saying for a year and a half now?"

Edward, ten million people watched last night. A record. So yes, people care. Too bad it was under such corporate control.

comment #36

BurmaShave says ...

Prager that was horrifyingly on point. You got into her head.

comment #37

MovieBob says ...

Continually amazing. Only the Democrats could fuck it up THIS badly. 2008 should've been the easiest win they've ever had, and instead they've walked right into their ultimate nightmare: Decades and change grabbing up the Black and Female voting blocks playing at cynical identity-politics, and now they're in a situation where they're going to HAVE TO deny either the First Female President or First Black President the shot, hacking off a chunk of the base either way. AND the FFP is an unlikable harpy. AND the FBP is a glass-jawed idealistic naif. AND the Republicans picked THIS round to spit the hard-right's dick out of their mouth and nominate a Dem/Independent-friendly moderate who's been playing the media like a harp his whole modern career??

And, seriously, thats the big one: Normally, the talk of "if my candidate doesn't get picked, I'm voting for the Republican out of spite" would be JUST talk if the likely opponent was someone profoundly objectionable like Cheney or Romney... but McCain? He basically IS a "blue-dog" Democrat, so he's actually a plausible alternative - ESPECIALLY if the nominee is Obama. Let's be very clear on that: After Jeremiah Wright, "bitter" and the innevitable scrutiny of his other questionable ties (get ready, kids, Ayers is one of the LEAST objectionable radicals he's pals with) if Obama is the Democrat nominee the working-class/white/nominally-religious Democrat vote is going to McCain.

comment #38

MattyC says ...

Not the vote of THIS working class/white/nominally-religious Democrat, anyway.

Obama's got my vote all the way!

comment #39

George Prager says ...

I still have a migraine from it.

comment #40

SaveFarris says ...

It's not "trivia" to ask "Who is Obama and what does he stand for?" If we had a 30 year record to look back on (like we do with McCain and (sort of) Hillary) then yes, their positions are of more import. But Obama has none of that. So, with no record to judge him on, on what should we base our decision?

The crowd that's been screaming "HALLIBURTON!!! ENRON!!! WORLDCOM!!!" for 8 years now all of a sudden decides that a candidate's interpersonal relationships are no big deal? Give me a break!!!

comment #41

Fred Mounts says ...

The L.A. TImes apparently agrees that the debate was Entertainment!

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2008/04/stephanopoulos.html

comment #42

christian says ...

Here's another thoughtful question from the debate:

STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator, two questions. Number one, do you think Reverend Wright loves America as much as you do?

comment #43

Mgmax says ...

"Since you deliberately make it your goal to "not get it" Mgmax"

That's just my false consciousness, which has driven me to guns and Jeezus. If only I could be a big city liberal yuppie giving money to Democratic candidates... oh wait I was until recently.

"The people in PA are not "bitter" over Obama's take on flag pins or Clinton's trip to Bosnia. They're bitter about the war, the economy and our future."

Who told you that, Bruce Springsteen? Let's put it this way-- if you're right, he should lose PA by only a point or two at most. If you're wrong, at least 5 points. We'll soon know.

"Obama's association with a bomb-throwing psycho? As he pointed out, he was eight years old."

How old was George W. Bush when Prescott was supposedly helping Hitler to power?

"Bush and Cheney are true war and economic criminals. But they got a free media ride. They still do."

On what frigging planet was that?

Jim Geraghty at National Review's Campaign Spot:

"In the car earlier, I thought about the contrast with McCain... Does he ever grumble about some questions? Oh, once in a while we'll see McCain get a bit curt with a New York Times reporter on his plane. I remember him getting surprisingly defensive in response to a question about Israel on one of those blogger calls, and I'm sure we all remember the "thanks for the question, you little jerk. You're drafted!" (which everyone at the event understood as a joke, but was easy to take out of context). But all in all, McCain's off-key answers have been pretty small potatoes. When the New York Times did that inane front-page story insinuating, but never quite coming out and accusing him of having an affair with a lobbyist, he took every question until no one had any left.

"Meanwhile, Obama gets a couple questions on unpleasant topics — do you understand why your San Francisco comment bothered some Pennsylvanians? Why did you ask Jeremiah Wright to not play a role in your campaign kickoff? Why don't you wear a flag pin? Can you explain your relationship with William Ayers? — and his supporters go apoplectic, some even screaming Obama should retaliate against ABC as President. And his campaign whines that it's "gotcha politics and distractions."

"Hey, welcome to the big leagues, rookie. You're gonna get some questions you're not going to like. Not everybody gets to have their main opponent's bid implode when their divorce records are unsealed and compete against Alan Keyes in a general election.

"Seriously, if Barack Obama can't handle questions like this from Charlie Gibson and George Stephanopolous, maybe the portrait of the cracking-under-pressure whiner depicted in the Saturday Night Live sketch isn't as wild an exaggeration as we thought."

comment #44

christian says ...

Since the war and the economy are not your strong suit, Mgmax, as you continually defend both as strong, I understand why you don't know what many American voters in PA and elsewhere are concerned about. It's not a flag pin or ducking Bosnian sniper fire.

But please, tell me how wonderful 4 dollar a gallon gas is for all those working people. That question was given before they had to quickly cut to an ad for stool-loosener last night. Makes ya proud to be an American.

comment #45

Titus Pullo says ...

Of course Mgmax loved this debate, it's right up his alley, where patriotism is defined by lapel wear, and whether you believe in the flag. All a psychological ploy conservatives play on themselves to distract themselves from the fact that they have failed the true test of patriotism, namely, service to country in a time of war.

Last night was a good insight into the mindset of the MSM, who see elections as an amusement. Example:

These comments are from Margaret Carlson:

[Margaret] CARLSON (10/10/00): Gore’s fabrications may be inconsequential—I mean, they’re about his life. Bush’s fabrications are about our life, and what he’s going to do. Bush’s should matter more but they don’t, because Gore’s we can disprove right here and now…You can actually disprove some of what Bush is saying if you really get in the weeds and get out your calculator or you look at his record in Texas. But it’s really easy, and it’s fun, to disprove Gore.

CARLSON: I actually happen to know people who need government and so they would care more about the programs, and less about the things we kind of make fun of…But as sport, and as our enterprise, Gore coming up with another whopper is greatly entertaining to us. And we can disprove it in a way we can’t disprove these other things.

CARLSON (page 150): Hillary, too, could talk anyone into the ground. One night very late in New Delhi, Joe Klein, then at Newsweek, and I got a joint interview with the First Lady. She used up our time with chatter about the Taj Mahal and the ambassador’s gardens—all about as newsworthy as someone showing you slides from their summer vacation. About midnight, an aide showed us the door, literally. Our time was up. Valiantly, Klein reeled her back in with a question about health-care reform. As we descended into the swamps of single-payer insurance and Klein’s very own plan for universal health care, I leaned against the open door—and fell asleep. I woke up when my notebook clattered to the floor, embarrassed that jet lag had struck so hard, but unworried that any news had been committed.

comment #46

Mgmax says ...

So now the elites are lecturing each other on who's more of the people. Priceless, Christian.

Good to see my name again in your posts, Titus.

comment #47

D.Z. says ...

Dave Poland: "This is the debate that shows voters they cannot vote for elitist far out liberals."

Yeah, it's better to vote for a guy who admits he doesn't know anything about the economy.

"This is why liberals dont win general elections."

They just won one two years ago.

"Things will only get harder for Obama. When he actually for real has to explain his far left feelings, racist pastors, friendships with terrorists like ayers, no military experience, no bipartisan bills, etc"

So listening to vets is far left? As for racist pastors, well, Bush didn't have to defend his relationship with Falwell. The friendship with terrorist thing is dumb, too, considering Bush is the Saudis' BFF. Also, no one wants a bipartisan bill, because they know that means the Republicans will water down anything progressive in it.

Mgmax: "I love how the "Rumsfeld shook hands with Saddam! Bush's family had dealings with BinLaden's family and the Nazis!" crowd are now aghast that Obama is being quizzed about his association with a bomb-throwing psycho from the 60s,"

The difference is Obama didn't pay for the guy to blow up buildings.

"Who told you that, Bruce Springsteen? Let's put it this way-- if you're right, he should lose PA by only a point or two at most. If you're wrong, at least 5 points. We'll soon know."

He was supposed to lose by 15 points a month ago.

"How old was George W. Bush when Prescott was supposedly helping Hitler to power?"

Old enough to be reaping the rewards of his grandfather escaping treason charges?

Bob: People keep saying Obama's going to lose, but he keeps increasing his edge each time he speaks.

Farris: "The crowd that's been screaming "HALLIBURTON!!! ENRON!!! WORLDCOM!!!" for 8 years now all of a sudden decides that a candidate's interpersonal relationships are no big deal?"

The difference is that those corporations lobbied Bush's campaign specifically so he'd let them rape the country.
Obama's acquaintances are not going to be picked as members of the Cabinet if he wins.

comment #48

dangovich says ...

Let me see if I got this straight. Obama, raised is humble circumstances by a single mother, is an elitist. Blueblood George W. Bush is salt of the earth.

And John Kerry and Al Gore, who volunteered for service in Vietnam, are limp-wristed pansies. But Dick Cheney and W, who avoided combat, are swaggering macho men.

And furthermore, John McCain, who flip-flopped on torture and tax cuts to appease the right wing base, is a maverick.

Did I miss anything?

With the exception of Jeff and a few rational commenters, these political threads are a testament to selective insanity.

comment #49

Mgmax says ...

You had me till the last line, Dangovich.