comment #1

BurmaShave says ...

And yet you half shit on IRON MAN, one of the most refreshingly old school action-adventures in many a year?

comment #2

gruver1 says ...

I didn't half-shit on it. I said it was fine, okay, etc. With a hugely enjoyable Robert Downey performance. I just felt it was over-praised somewhat. I don't have a big beef with that film. I have a slight beef with fans doing cartwheels in the lobby.

comment #3

cinefan says ...

That's one of the things I love about Raiders is that you can feel how beaten up and hurt Indy is by the end of the film after surviving his adventures - just watch the scenes with him on the submarine after the spectacular truck chase (he doesn't just bounce back physically like nothing ever happened to him which is what you see with a lot of comic book and action heroes)

comment #4

Richardson says ...

Prediction - Indy will not be as big a flop as Speed Racer, but will underperform compared to Iron Man and Prince Caspian. Wells will like it, and start to write about how people are wrong when they say that 'Iron Man' is the better movie.

comment #5

Richardson says ...

"just watch the scenes with him on the submarine after the spectacular truck chase (he doesn't just bounce back physically like nothing ever happened to him which is what you see with a lot of comic book and action heroes)"

You mean the submarine that he attaches himself to the outside of and then stays attached to while it's submerged all the way to the island?

comment #6

romeoisbleeding says ...

Sorry but I have to agree with Burma Shave here. To me Iron Man felt very old school. I saw the trailer for Indy with it and frankly it left me kind of cold. It looked like they took pieces from every movie they have done. And Fords attempt at humor fell flat to me. That said.. of course it will be a huge hit. You would have to be a total idiot not to get behind it. I am sure Poland will get behind Indy. It is s sure bet. But I will still say I think Iron Man was the movie I have been waiting for for a liong time. great entertainment!

comment #7

D.Z. says ...

Why are you thanking him, Jeff? How else would they fight back then?

"The thing I've always disliked about martial-arts fight scenes is that nobody ever gets hurt."

No, they just don't get hurt in American films. You ever sit through Jackie Chan's outtakes, and you'll see something entirely different.

"We all realize, of course, that martial arts fights are intentionally stylized and not operating under a realistic tent. "

I doubt anyone at UFC will agree with you on that one.

"The worst fight scene of all time in this vein? The battle between Neo and all the Smiths in The Matrix Reloaded. "

It's a computer simulation of a fight. And the worst fight scenes are from Cradle 2 The Grave.

Richardson: It won't under-perform, but anyone expecting it to do as well as the last three films will be disappointed.

comment #8

cinefan says ...

my bad - I meant the cargo ship which Indy leaves to climb aboard the German submarine.

comment #9

Major Calloway says ...

Enjoyed IRON MAN, but it did stretch the bounds of credibility quite a bit when it comes to the amount of abuse (and G forces) a human body can absorb without, um, being dead.

I'm totally in agreement on "old school" physical action with real vulnerability -- or at least the affectation of it -- but wouldn't exactly say a new page has turned. I would peg RAIDERS ("It's the mileage") and DIE HARD ("Hi honey") as high water marks. I'm sure there are others we can think of....

comment #10

David Ehrlich says ...

jeff, the fight scenes in asian martial arts films should be considered elaborate dances... the best ones are celebrations of the human body in movement, and not the violence that the testosterone factor demands. think A TOUCH OF ZEN, the shaw bros. work, IRON MONKEY, etc... they're balletic and the definition of poetry in motion - kinetically exciting in exactly the same way as SINGING IN THE RAIN.

comment #11

alynch says ...

No, they just don't get hurt in American films. You ever sit through Jackie Chan's outtakes, and you'll see something entirely different.

D.Z., sometimes you just make it too easy. He's not talking about the people actually performing the stunts. He's talking about the characters in the fucking movie, in which case he's completely correct. People do get kicked in the face very hard, and they just brush it off and continue fighting. There's no reaction. Furthermore, doesn't the fact that Chan often gets hurt, yet his characters never do speak to the inherent phoniness of these scenes?

I doubt anyone at UFC will agree with you on that one.

D.Z., read this very closely. UFC fighters are actually fighting. Characters in movies are not actually fighting; they are pretend fighting. And yes, these fights are often staged in a highly stylized and unrealistic manner.

comment #12

Jeremy Smith says ...

He gave us close to that same answer at the FIREWALL junket.

comment #13

Richardson says ...

"Richardson: It won't under-perform, but anyone expecting it to do as well as the last three films will be disappointed."

The story will be that it underperformed, in the sense that it doesn't make as much money as Iron Man or Caspian as quickly (It will be lucky if its four day grosses are as high as Iron Man's three day). I was thinking it would have a big drop off in the second weekend, but I'm not sure what would unseat. Maybe 'Sex in the City' (which really shouldn't be opening in May) will still be strong enough to beat Indy 4's second weekend.

comment #14

Randy W says ...

Just saw a M&M's/Crystal Skull commercial on television. Puke.

comment #15

cinefan says ...

I'm glad someone mentioned Die Hard, I'd forgotten how beat up John Mcclane was in the film and how terrible he looks by the end. Raiders and Indy had a clear influence upon Die Hard and I think that's one of the places it shows up.

comment #16

D.Z. says ...

alynch: "People do get kicked in the face very hard, and they just brush it off and continue fighting."

Bah, that kind of thing was in action flicks long before martial arts was introduced. Also, Jeff used a bad example, since Bruce's character does get cut up in Enter the Dragon.

"Furthermore, doesn't the fact that Chan often gets hurt, yet his characters never do speak to the inherent phoniness of these scenes?"

Well, you obviously haven't seen Meals on Wheels or Dragons Forever, but the ones you're complaining about actually have his characters getting more hurt than in most American films where the only time action heroes suffer any damage is during the final showdown. How many times does it look like the worst Arnie and Sly's characters had to endure was a broken nail?

"UFC fighters are actually fighting. Characters in movies are not actually fighting; they are pretend fighting. "

They're pretend fighting using realistic techniques which can and do injure. That's a helluva difference from just dodging a punch or a kick.

comment #17

Jay T. says ...

I'm still laughing at the idea that Indiana Jones is going to flop... it's going to be HUGE, and if gets good reviews it's going to be massive.

comment #18

Adonis says ...

Harrison Ford is neither leading any charge or sounding any horn... that's just a ridiculous statement.

The stylized vs. realistic debate is more nuanced then simply martial arts v. no martial arts. One of the principle reasons violence is unrealistic is that violence bumps ratings up to R level and beyond. Certainly people got 'hurt' in the Kill Bills, Ong Bak, Crank (heavily stylized but certainly graphic), etc. There are PLENTY of movies that will keep alive/promote stylized violence because audiences gernerally find it entertaining.

Indiana Jones, by the way, is stylized too, somewhat, in that it's certainly a specialized genre: i.e. lots of natives, lots of dashing about with a whip, etc.

Anyway, the Matrix films pushed limits technologically, and therefore altered perspective for a (brief) time being. But stylized violence has always existed (Errol Flyn, etc.) and will continue to evolve. Given the ever-increasingly mainstream phenomena of Asian martial arts in this country and beyond, there will always be a lot of films with lots of martial arts... they won't all be massive hits like the Matrix films, but they will be around.

comment #19

Adonis says ...

Oh, and a general question: Wells and others have demonized Mel Gibson for being all-consumed with violence.

In reality his most violent films, Braveheart, Passion of the Christ, Apocalytpo, in no way "embellished" or altered what violence was in those depicted times. Certainly the Gospels and the last 2000 years of developing Christian lore emphasize the sheer amount of suffering Jesus endured. Obviously medieval warfare and Mayan warfare was indeed that brutal (and any historians out there know exactly just how torture-crazy the dominant Central American empries were).

So, Well, I'm curious: Do you basically just want a happy medium that suits you? Do you want violence... but not too graphic or too persuasive... but not stylized or "too" unrealistic either?

I think often times the more "realistic" violence is the more critics condemn it as being exploitive. Do critics, let alone audiences, really want to see what happens when you actually knee a man in the face? You want the camera to show a man's jaw break and his teeth go through his lips? Willl mainstream films, i.e. pop culture movies, be Sopranos, Saving Private Ryan, or Cronenberg-style?

I think not. Most movie violence will remain make-belive... the question is merely how make-believe.

comment #20

berkguru says ...

Damn I wanted to see Han Solo do a flying 20 foot drop kick

if you want real violence, check out Grand Theft Auto IV. Will have a lasting impact on today's youth that is way worse than any crap they see in the movies because they are in control with the videogame.

comment #21

Jack Price says ...

Jeff, you'll be very pleasantly surprised by Pineapple Express then.

It's some of the finest awkward fighting I've seen in a film for quite some time. In some ways I'd compare it to the trailer-home fight in Raising Arizona, but it's far more down-and-dirty, very often wince-inducing.

comment #22

The Winchester says ...

I know this always comes up in these discussions here, but I still stand behind the greatest onscreen fight:

Roddy Piper vs. Keith David in They Live. Two men just beating the ever loving shit out of each other for 7 minutes. You see them get exhausted, and the toil it takes on them.

They don't make fight scenes like that anymore.

comment #23

frankbooth says ...

"The shoe has just dropped. The page has just turned. Martial-arts combat scenes have taken a bullet in the chest."

I thought that the shoe dropped with The Bourne Identity. As far as I remember, that's the one that ushered in the recent wave of (relatively) more realistic combat -- to the point of nudging Craig's Bond in this down-and-dirty direction. For several years prior to that, it was all MatrixAngelsXmen wire-fu.

comment #24

markj says ...

I'm holding out for Indy to be a return to great summer filmmaking. Remember that?

comment #25

Josh Massey says ...

"They don't make fight scenes like that anymore."

Oh, but you do. Check out the "Cripple Fight" episode of "South Park" - the big battle in that is nearly a shot-for-shot remake of the They Live battle royale.

comment #26

Rich S. says ...

I agree, Winchester. My favorite part of that scene is the reason WHY they're fighting. Piper wants David to put on a pair of sunglasses, and David refuses. That's it. And they beat the living tar out of each other over it.

I would also add the sword fight scene between Liam Neeson and Tim Roth in Rob Roy. Not only is it brutal, but they characters actually get tired swinging those heavy metal swords around. That's the only movie of that genre in which I can remember that happening.

The worst thing that ever happened to Jackie Chan and Jet Li was wire-fu. True, they were both reaching the age where they probably couldn't do their jaw-dropping stunts safely any more. But their movies were so much more enjoyable when you knew they were doing all that physical derring-do.

And, by the way, Jackie Chan gets the bejeezus beat out of him in Rumble in the Bronx (the scene when they're hitting him with the beer bottles). So not all martial arts films are created equal.

comment #27

Sax says ...

I find this kind of out-of-focus thinking especially irritating. Why give Indiana Jones a free pass? Spielberg delighted in presenting bizarre unrealistic situations. In the famous truck sequence, Jones is shot in the shoulder before his acrobatics begin! Is this an example of realistic consequences in a movie action sequence? Any real world academic, even a buffed-out one, would immediately go into shock at that point. So is Jones actually some kind of superhero? Only when it suits the convenience of the film-makers. Just as a tribe of Amazon indians who live by the accuracy of their bow and arrow marksmanship, can't hit a floundering archaeologist in a muddy stream twenty feet away. To the extent that Spielberg put his stamp of approval on this incoherent nonsense, he has a lot to answer for. But no one is going to step up and make him do it -- least of all Jeff.

comment #28

gruver1 says ...

Wells to FrankBooth: I loved the fight scene between Matt Damon and that North African assassin in the last Bourne film. There was no disputing that pain and woundings were a possible part of what was happening between those two.

comment #29

Mr. Buckles says ...

SIX WORDS
Rowdy Roddy Piper in They Live. F'ing A.

Now there's a fight scene with blood, sweat and tears that is yet is still over the top in an entertaining albeit totally different way.

comment #30

JD says ...

The Wachowskis should be applauded for taking an aesthetic they admired and finding a context where it was appropriate. The Matrix movies take place within a computer simulation of reality and, therefore, have no obligation to capture a completely authentic sense of action. People always discuss the action in The Matrix out of context, calling it "vicious" and "horrifyingly violent," but forgetting that realcharacters/ people aren't even dying in those action scenes. In those crazy shoot-outs they constantly ran on the news after Columbine, it looked like an insanely cold-blooded film... but that's only because the scenes were taken out of context. Same goes for that fantasy shooting spree from the Basketball Diaries. They'd show it, but never explain that this ridiculously stylized sequence was a fantasy of the protagonist.

comment #31

JeffK says ...

The Bourne movies redefined the direction for action movies in general, the most obvious example being Casino Royale. That said, even Bourne survived a four story fall in the first film simply using a body cushion. As for the most recent absolutely gritty, cringe inducing fight, has everyone forgotten the ending of Eastern Promises already? Viggo takes a few knife wounds that reduce him to a flopping ragdoll with one good arm!

comment #32

Jay T. says ...

"even Bourne survived a four story fall in the first film simply using a body cushion"

Yes... but that's not entirely unrealistic. Improbable? Sure, but far from impossible, so it doesn't take away from the film's realism.

comment #33

Mark says ...

Top 5 fights from mainstream Hollywood.

1. Ripley vs. Mother

2. Morpheus vs. Mr. Smith

3. Uma vs. Darryl

4. Bourne vs. Csokas

5. Cruise vs. Wilfred Brimley

comment #34

Major Calloway says ...

6. FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE - Connery vs. Shaw

7. THE APOSTLE - Duvall vs. Billy Bob

8. SAVING PRIVATE RYAN - Goldberg vs. SS soldier

9. OUT OF SIGHT - Clooney vs. Cheadle

10. BORAT - Cohen vs. Davitian

comment #35

DarthCorleone says ...

It's find if you thought the "Burly Brawl" in Matrix Reloaded was too much and spawned ridiculous fight sequences in other movies, but as someone else mentioned, it does not warrant mention itself for the reason of the original critique. The whole point of the battles in the Matrix is that the physical rules do not apply, so standard human limitations and physical damage are not as applicable.

comment #36

D.Z. says ...

Mark: Uma vs. Darryl =/= a fight.

comment #37

Aladdin Sane says ...

DZ, quit spending so much time in the fiction part of the library.

comment #38

Hallick says ...

If Ford had said 'the Matrix sequels' instead, I'd have no problem with the statement he made. I have no idea if his own movie is actually any better for being different, of course. But the first Matrix was revitalizing for action films, and that fact gets lost in the legacy of Reloaded and Revolutions.

The worst of the Hong Kong fights always look completely and utterly unspontaneous, as if one guy said to the other, "I'm going to put my fist here, so you block it, and we'll both stop moving for a beat, then I'll try this punch, and you catch it here, and then we'll pause again for another beat...". Dut dut dut dut, pfft, pfft, pfft, pfft. So perfectly choreographed, so perferctly sterile.