Logic Nazi

"Every movie probably suffers from logic flaws," notes Artful Writer Craig Maizin in a piece he posted on 6.8. "The goal, of course, is to avoid crossing the threshold of tolerance. There are some flaws in The Godfather, for instance. If Tessio can figure out where Michael is meeting The Turk and have enough time to plant a gun, why can't he plant a few guys in the back kitchen? Or in a back alley? Have them do the murders, and not put Al Pacino's Michael on the hook?


"But the logic flaws in The Godfather simply don't cross the threshold of tolerance. Because they don't, no one really gives a damn. In fact, many people will instinctively argue that the logic flaws aren't flaws at all. So we gloss by logic errors in films that don't cross the threshold of tolerance, because they haven't done enough damage to shake the illusion of intention.

"But you can only suffer so many shots below the waterline before the ship starts to sink. If the audience's illusion of intention is repeatedly or grossly challenged by logic problems, they will revolt.

"Make up any rules you'd like for your fictional system, but adhere to them. For instance, in the latest Indiana Jones film, the crystal skull is presented as an object so magnetic, it can literally attract metal shavings out of the air from hundreds of feet away. But sometimes, it doesn't seem to be magnetic at all. Like when it's in a jeep. Or near guns. Or bullets.

"That was a glaring logic flaw that pulled a lot of people out of the moment, including myself. On the other hand, the filmmakers were smart to include a fast shot of the words 'lead-lined' on the refrigerator that Indy climbs into just before the nuclear blast goes off. That's enough to satisfy the Logic Nazi."

But not me. Indy locking himself inside that lead-lined refrigerator was my first big logical break with Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull. The reason -- very simple -- is a universally recognized law that says anyone who crawls into a refrigerator and closes the door shut is locking him or herself into a tomb and will soon suffocate to death. I've been taught that since I was five friggin' years old. I don't care if the refrigerator is blown a mile or so into the desert by an exploding atom bomb, banging and rolling around like a ball bearing. The door will never open unless you pull the latch handle. Once you're inside, you can't get out.

A big logic problem for some in M. Night Shyamnalan's The Happening is that everyone responds to the plant toxin effect, which has destroyed the natural human instinct to self-preserve, by deliberately killing themselves in all sorts of different ways. It's been argued that a loss of the self-preservation instinct would more likely result in people offing themselves in much more casual (i.e., not immediately homicidal) ways -- absurd binge-drinking, family arguments escalating in to homicides at the drop of a hat, Mad Max-style speeding on the freeway resulting in all kinds of fatal pile-ups, a resurgence of unprotected '70s and early '80s-style gay bathhouse sex, people binging on Ben and Jerry's, etc.


This didn't bother me as much as it did others because I (like Shyamalan himself) was so taken with all those chilling images of bodies falling from buildings and hanging from trees.

I've always said that James Cameron's T2: Judgment Day should have ended with a completely illogical occurence that nonetheless would've worked emotionally. As Arnold Schwarzenegger's cyborg is saying goodbye to Eddie Furlong as he deliberately lowers himself into that steel-mill inferno, a single tear should have leaked out from the corner of one of his lifeless eyes.

The movie clearly has established in an earlier scene that Arnie's cyborg can't cry and in fact has no idea what crying is. (Schwarzenegger asks Furlong at one point to explain it.) But Schwarzenegger has also been learning certain phrases and social habits from Furlong (hand slaps, "eat me," "hasta la vista, baby") so it's conceivable that a resourceful super-robot might have somehow generated the ability to weep by the end of the film. Illogical, yes, but it would have worked.

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Posted by Jeffrey Wells on June 14, 2008 at 7:33 AM

comment #1

ScottMendelson Author Profile Page says ...

Speaking of flaws in otherwise great movies, one of the reasons I've defended Indy 4 is that it ends in the same way as parts 1 and 3 end... with the realization that had Indy not gotten out of bed that morning, the general would have unfolded exactly like it otherwise does. Actually, part 4 has more consequences for Indy than those other (better films): Spoilers for every Indy film:

Raiders - Let's say Indiana Jones stays in bed. Marion sells the headpiece to the Nazis, they find the ark, they open the ark, they all die, same as what happened. The only difference is that perhaps Indy needs to be there to save Marion in the bar (if the Nazis were going to kill her regardless), but after that, they can both go home in peace.

Last Crusade - One Indy rescues his father, if they both go home... The Nazis find the Holy Grail spot. They either A) expend all of their men drinking each wrong cup or B) they get the right cup, but the temple collapses as they cross the seal and they all die in the temple. Even if they escape with the grail, it's made very clear that you have to stay in the temple and keep drinking to get eternal life.

Temple of Doom of course is the one that most depends on Indy taking decisive action. He needs to go to the temple, steal back the stones, free the children, and save the village.

Krystal Skull - The same issues as 1 and 3. If Indy stays home, the Russians find the skull (or not), and they put the skull in its proper place and they all get sucked into another dimension. Of course, with part 4, there are three lives that Indy must save (Marion, Mutt, and Oxley), so there is actually more at stake than parts 1 and 3.

And let's not forget the Lord Of The Rings films - just why didn't Gandolf call upon a giant eagle, fly over Mount Doom, and just drop the ring in? Seems like the smartest course of action to me.

Scott Mendelson

Posted by ScottMendelson Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 8:50 AM

comment #2

Movie fan09 Author Profile Page says ...

Posted by Scott Mendelson at June 14, 2008 08:50 AM

Last Crusade - One Indy rescues his father, if they both go home... The Nazis find the Holy Grail spot. They either A) expend all of their men drinking each wrong cup or B) they get the right cup, but the temple collapses as they cross the seal and they all die in the temple. Even if they escape with the grail, it's made very clear that you have to stay in the temple and keep drinking to get eternal life.

also-
why does the knight age if he has access to eternal life?

Posted by Movie fan09 Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 8:55 AM

comment #3

EOTW Author Profile Page says ...

Sorry. that tear idea in T2 is the dumbest fucking thing of the day. I think Cameron makes it VERY clear that a terminator can't cry, which is why (IIRC) he has Arny trace a finger along John's cjeek when he is ordering him not to go. It plays beautifully into the moment and the film is a masterpiece (not Cameron's first either!). One of the great endings of all time. As far as I am concerned, T3, its sequels and that TV show never happened. Thank you very kindly.

Posted by EOTW Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 8:59 AM

comment #4

EOTW Author Profile Page says ...

To be fair, though. Why not send the damn thing back to the 1880s or something and take out Connor's great grandpa or whatever, or just kill JC in the future. Whatever.

Posted by EOTW Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 9:00 AM

comment #5

JapAdapters Author Profile Page says ...

There's no logic flaw in THE GODFATHER. The Turk getting to the restaurant is contingent on Michael being with him. If Michael doesn't get in the car with the Turk and McCloskey, they don't have the meeting (the location of which the Corleone's find out about at the very last minute) and once they're actually having the meeting over dinner, you can't have someone blast away because it would put Michael in the line of fire.

It's perfectly logical that if you're having a meeting at a restaurant, your bodyguard would check the bathroom for gangsters with machine guns as a perfunctory measure, but not check behind the toilet for a gun tapped to the wall when you don't think anyone knows where it's taking place. If they're watching the restaurant beforehand, the gun could have been planted, without drawing attention, by a guy who stopped in to take a leak or to have a quick meal.

Posted by JapAdapters Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 9:16 AM

comment #6

AndrewOwens Author Profile Page says ...

Skynet only has sketchy records of what happened in the past/present (everything paper would be burned by Judgment Day, magnetic or digital records would be wiped by EMP - remember Arnie had to look up Sarah in the phonebook and did not know what she looked like) but it also has to be careful that it doesn't change the timeline too radically (killing JC's grandfather might somehow lead to the development of Skynet being subtly but crucially different). Basically Skynet wants history to happen exactly as it did but with one exception - JC dead before Judgment Day.

Posted by AndrewOwens Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 9:25 AM

comment #7

MDOC Author Profile Page says ...

Scott Mendelson: I agree completely with your Lord of the Rings point. The first thing I said walking out of King was "Where were those eagles in the first movie?"
I know it's not a movie, but BSG has recently done the same thing. How did the cylons know the final 5 wouldn't be killed in the initial assault on the planets. I apoliogize for being so nerdy but it was on last night so it's fresh in my mind.

Posted by MDOC Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 9:34 AM

comment #8

George Prager Author Profile Page says ...

It always bothered me that Brian Bosworth's character in STONE COLD had a pet komodo dragon. I'm sure that it is totally illegal to own one as a pet. Even a police officer couldn't get away with something like that. It takes away from my enjoyment of the movie.

Posted by George Prager Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 9:36 AM

comment #9

BillRamsey Author Profile Page says ...

WAIT A SECOND.. the fucking dude who is responsible for some of the worse movies in film history -- has anyone seen SUPERHERO MOVIE -- has the balls to analyze and dissect the Godfather. Mazin -- you are a talentless hack -- and I'm glad your movie bombed a horrible death...

Maybe next time blogging about logic problems in the greatest movie ever made -- you should stop co-writing insipid and totally inane spoof movies that make the Wayan Brothers seem like Fellini.

Holy Cow.. Mazin.. have fun making money and knowing you have put some of the worst shit on theater screens that nobody watched.

Posted by BillRamsey Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 9:37 AM

comment #10

George Prager Author Profile Page says ...

Watch out for Karma B.R. Mazin's probably done more in a single day than you have accomplished in your entire life. Well maybe, I guess if you call leaving comments on blogs being called accomplished.

Posted by George Prager Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 9:59 AM

comment #11

MickTravis Author Profile Page says ...

More about the skull -- wouldn't its magnetism cause it to be drawn to metal objects heavier than itself? And wouldn't it shatter upon contact? Now that is something that could've been in "Superhero Movie."

Posted by MickTravis Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 10:19 AM

comment #12

polarbear2 Author Profile Page says ...

Whether or not the story would have ended the same with or without Indiana Jones' involvement is irrelevant. The movies are not about the Nazi's tracking down the Ark or the Grail. They are about Dr. Jones and his adventures. Hardly ever in the movies does Indy ever return from one of his quests with anything other than his sore butt and a good story. For such a renowned archaeologist, its practically a running gag.

Most movies are about characters more than whatever impact they make or don't make in the long run. At the end of the day, no matter if Sam Spade got up in the morning or not, the bird was still a fake.

And about the Grail knight in "..Last Crusade", eternal life doesn't mean eternal youth

Posted by polarbear2 Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 10:20 AM

comment #13

MickTravis Author Profile Page says ...

I think these logic problems all come down to the abilities of the writer.

I dunno if I agree with the notion of a crying Terminator (which would make me thing, "what are those tears made of? oil?"), but I do about the fridge -- I, too, wondered how Indy was going to get out of that thing. That was a missed opportunity for an ironic spin on the kind of out-of-the-frying-pan-into-the-fire the Indy series used to specialize in.

What if, say, a passing farmer -- stunned by the sight of the A-bomb explosion -- pulled over to the side of the rode, noticed the smoking fridge land, curiously opened it up and out tumbled Indy, gasping for breath ("thanks...") surviving a nuclear blast only to have almost suffocated like a kid. OK, maybe that's a bad idea, too.

Posted by MickTravis Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 10:28 AM

comment #14

Doug Pratt Author Profile Page says ...

What about Traffic???!!!!

How does the assassin know where the witness is going to be walking?

How does Catherine Zeta-Jones go from zero to expert in the drug business in like a day?

Posted by Doug Pratt Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 10:34 AM

comment #15

Richardson Author Profile Page says ...

I always thought that the restaurant they went to was "friendly" to either The Turk or Botzini or one of Families, so they couldn't have a bunch of people lurking around with guns.

Posted by Richardson Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 10:42 AM

comment #16

George Prager Author Profile Page says ...

What about JUNO? Especially the scene where...actually, what about the whole movie?

Posted by George Prager Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 10:57 AM

comment #17

supertaster Author Profile Page says ...

A logic flaw isn't when there are alternatives to a course of action taken by a character (the michael vs. a button man argument above), because choices are sometimes limitless and who's to say which is one is the very best? No, logic flaws are closer to what Wells mentioned...when a character overcomes his choice regardless of physical or plausible limitations -- i.e. Indy jumping in an old style fridge with no plan (or discernible way) to get out.

Posted by supertaster Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 10:57 AM

comment #18

DarthCorleone Author Profile Page says ...

I think it's much more poignant and believable to have the terminator understand "why" he cries but "never" be able to do it. It's a great line.

Indy 4 wasn't just undermined by the refrigerator and the magnets. That elastic tree, the waterfalls, and the monkeys were AWFUL. They were far beyond anything in the first three movies.

Posted by DarthCorleone Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 11:09 AM

comment #19

JapAdapters Author Profile Page says ...

"What about Traffic???!!!!

How does the assassin know where the witness is going to be walking?

How does Catherine Zeta-Jones go from zero to expert in the drug business in like a day?"

Don't even get me started on this movie, and the plot holes you could drive trucks through.

The main one you didn't mention is Don Cheadle leaving a bug in Steven Bauer's office as some sort of happy ending when A. the bug is illegal so it wouldn't be mean shit in court anyway and B. Steven Bauer killed Dennis Quaid, and is therefore smarter than him, and Dennis Quaid said he had his office swept for bugs twice a week or something. What, this wouldn't occur to Steven Bauer, who otherwise out thought Dennis Quaid?

A cop-out ending to a (wildly overpraised) cop-out movie. Cheadle should have clipped Bauer in an alley or something, but that would have been a little too morally gray for Soderberg, I guess.

I could go on and on and on and on ...

Posted by JapAdapters Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 11:35 AM

comment #20

bryce_david Author Profile Page says ...

For me, the film with the biggest film logic problem is THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK and those Walkers and the energy shield surrounding the Rebel camp. Every time a rebel ship has to leave the camp, they have to deactivate the shield temporarily to let it fly out. The Empire can't send spaceships to attack so they decide to set-up camp beyond the energy shield. If flying ships cannot enter the energy shield, how were the Walkers capable of penetrating the shield?

But more to the point, why send those lumbering behemoth of machines to destroy the force field generator and not something small and swift? The whole set-up never made any sense. Spectacular but dumb.

Posted by bryce_david Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 11:43 AM

comment #21

DarthCorleone Author Profile Page says ...

JapAdapters>> I don't see Cheadle's character's move as a "happy ending," as you put it. To me it's just indicative of the fact that he has not let Luis' character's death or Miguel's character's speech about futility get him down. Yes, it's positive and encouraging to see that he still has his fighting spirit. But it's rather ambiguous and discouraging in that this neverending, unwinnable war is just going to keep on going. The bug is more symbolic than anything else; they'll keep placing more bugs and keep gathering evidence to make more arrests, and the drug dealers will keep sweeping for bugs and keep beating the raps (or being replaced by someone else when they don't beat it).

Posted by DarthCorleone Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 11:54 AM

comment #22

DarthCorleone Author Profile Page says ...

And simply assassinating Bauer? O.k. That would be interesting in a different movie, but Soderbergh wasn't going for some vigilante plotline. I think he was attempting to show the system as it is. If anything, I see simply offing the guy as more of a copout happy ending.

Posted by DarthCorleone Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 12:02 PM

comment #23

D.Z. Author Profile Page says ...

Scott: The point of the Indy films is for him to also discover these objects for himself. And the reason Gandalf doesn't do everything himself is because of all the monsters in his way, and the other wizard who likes to ride an eagle. As for that fridge, I think the idea is that the impact of its crash landing loosens the door.

Blood: Eternal Life just means he ages slowly.

You want a real logical flaw, here goes: Why do Yoda and Obi-wan wait 20 years for someone else to finish the bad guys, when the pair are capable of taking them down himself? And of course, why do those Crazy 88s not simply run over the Bride in their bikes, instead of getting off of them and letting her kill them one by one?

Also, I think the real issue with Terminator is how is Kyle Reese born, if he ends up being a father to the guy he helps in the future? That always seemed like a paradox to me.

Posted by D.Z. Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 12:13 PM

comment #24

Josh Massey Author Profile Page says ...

I just watched Jumper the other night. That movie could have been titled Logic Flaw.

Posted by Josh Massey Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 12:39 PM

comment #25

George Prager Author Profile Page says ...

All of this Indiana Jones/Traffic blah,blah,blah is reminding me of the "Bonanza" discussions in TIN MEN.

Posted by George Prager Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 12:54 PM

comment #26

Mgmax, le Corbeau Author Profile Page says ...

I believe Tolkien observes that the eagles don't take orders, and just don't feel like operating a bus service to Mordor for hobbits.

Though he could also have made it that they couldn't fly into Mordor until Sauron's forcefield was broken, I suppose.

Posted by Mgmax, le Corbeau Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 2:09 PM

comment #27

Craig Kennedy Author Profile Page says ...

"a single tear should have leaked out from the corner of one of his lifeless eyes..." Jesus, like the groan-worthy thumbs up wasn't awful enough.

When I'm otherwise enjoying a movie, most logic flaws don't bother me. When the movie isn't working, each one stands out like a punch to the groin. I think the reason so many people were bugged by those in Indy 4 was because they just weren't into the movie and not the other way around.

The fact that sound and fiery explosions exist in the vacuum of space in Star Wars never bothered me and it still doesn't.

Focusing on plot holes and logical inconsistencies is the most simplistic form of film criticism.

Posted by Craig Kennedy Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 2:48 PM

comment #28

JapAdapters Author Profile Page says ...

DarthCorleone, I thought Cheadle walking away with a satisfied smirk on his face as the conclusion of the movie was a sign that it was supposed to be a happy ending. I just don't know what he was smiling about because the bug would give him no evidence that he could actually use, and -- by the movie's own established logic -- Bauer would have found it right away anyway.

Having Cheadle kill Bauer would have been the same message: you need to go off the grid to get satisfaction in such a corrupt game, and it would have been truly satisfying, as Bauer would be dead, instead of having a meaningless bug in his office that he'd find anyway.

cjkennedy, plot holes and inconsistencies are the surest sign of lazy screenwriting.

Posted by JapAdapters Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 4:40 PM

comment #29

Rich S. Author Profile Page says ...

I can't remember whether they make it clear in the movies, but in the book LOTR it's made fairly clear that Frodo is essentially the ONLY character that could take the ring to Mount Doom. Only a character that absolutely wants nothing to do with the power the ring bestows can hope to have any chance at all. Everyone else, it would corrupt. It finally corrupts Frodo and it's Gollum that's left to accidentally destroy the ring.

Plus, LOTR comes from the Norse/Germanic mythic tradition. It's fate, baby.

The logic holes that bothered me the most in Indy 3 and 4 were the chase scenes. In Raiders, they're trying to get the Ark to Cairo. In Doom, the mine cars have no brakes.

But in Indy 3 and 4, they're essentially chasing each other to nowhere. Each chase scene would end if the bad guys just stopped. Especially when Indy is fighting on that tank in Last Crusade. Just stop the tank and shoot him.

Posted by Rich S. Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 4:53 PM

comment #30

bb Author Profile Page says ...

The issue isn't logic, it is about engaging the audience enough that they are willing to overlook any logical flaws. It isn't logical that a man can increase his mass tenfold but damn The Incredible Hulk was fun.

Posted by bb Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 4:59 PM

comment #31

Mgmax, le Corbeau Author Profile Page says ...

"It always bothered me that Brian Bosworth's character in STONE COLD had a pet komodo dragon."

It always bothered me in The Freshman that the komodo dragon is referred to as an extremely endangered species. It's not and there are lots more of them than 12 in the world-- yeah, Bert Parks, I'm singin' to you!

Posted by Mgmax, le Corbeau Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 5:29 PM

comment #32

Mgmax, le Corbeau Author Profile Page says ...

"The fact that sound and fiery explosions exist in the vacuum of space in Star Wars never bothered me and it still doesn't."

Well, pretty much all space movies are built on the assumption that you can bop around from solar system to solar system in an afternoon. If Westerns worked on the same principle John Wayne could ride his horse to Tokyo in a day.

Posted by Mgmax, le Corbeau Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 5:31 PM

comment #33

Craig Kennedy Author Profile Page says ...

Mgmax. My Star Wars example was weak...Maizin already established that movies didn't have to be accurate, just consistent. If a space ship makes a sound in once scene, it should make a sound in the next.

JapAdapters. Lazy screenwriting doesn't always lead to bad movies. My whole point is that movies can transcend their limitations if they otherwise engage you in some way.

Posted by Craig Kennedy Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 6:16 PM

comment #34

Richardson Author Profile Page says ...

"Also, I think the real issue with Terminator is how is Kyle Reese born, if he ends up being a father to the guy he helps in the future? That always seemed like a paradox to me."

I am consistently impressed with the depths of DZ's stupidity. I'm certainly not going to argue that there are no paradoxes in 'The Terminator', but "How is Kyle Reese born?" is absolutely NOT one of them.

Posted by Richardson Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 7:53 PM

comment #35

Doug Pratt Author Profile Page says ...

"Focusing on plot holes and logical inconsistencies is the most simplistic form of film criticism."

When a movie is inspired by myths or old time serials, and doesn't pretend to be any more than that, then you can give it a pass if the logic is a little weak here and there ("we spent a gazillion dollars building our fabulous Death Star, but we're gonig to leave this one hole here, in case somebody wants to drop a bomb down it."), but Traffic was a sloppy, ridiculous cut-and-paste adaptation of an impeccably intelligent (and extremely satisfying) British miniseries, which tries to exude the demeanor of serious social commentary and somehow managed to cop a screenplay Oscar, a directing Oscar and earn the enduring, frothing praises of otherwise intelligent critics. Dwayne Esper is laughing in his grave.

Posted by Doug Pratt Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 8:28 PM

comment #36

D.Z. Author Profile Page says ...

Richardson: Of course it's a paradox! If John Connor is his kid, then Connor would have to be Reese's father for Reese to be born. Otherwise, the genetic traits for both men in both time periods would not be consistent across both time periods; and the Connor born in the past would not necessarily be the one who saves the future.

Posted by D.Z. Author Profile Page at June 14, 2008 10:50 PM

comment #37

Josh Massey Author Profile Page says ...

That may be the way things work in your family, D.Z. In fact, it would explain a lot.

Posted by Josh Massey Author Profile Page at June 15, 2008 7:06 AM

comment #38

D.Z. Author Profile Page says ...

Josh: The point I'm making is that their DNA would have to be consistently connected across both time periods for the ending to work, because otherwise they could not possibly meet in the future and Reese could not possibly be his father in the past in the same space time continuum. Think Back to the Future, which actually got the time travel details right, compared to Terminator.

Posted by D.Z. Author Profile Page at June 15, 2008 11:24 AM

comment #39

slothroplt Author Profile Page says ...

"Don't tempt me FRODO!"

Gandalf would have kept the ring for himself.

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dd Author Profile Page says ...

Maybe next time blogging about logic problems in the greatest movie ever made -- you should stop co-writing insipid and totally inane spoof movies that make the Wayan Brothers seem like Fellini.


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