comment #1

Entropy says ...

"There aren't that many good right-wing crime films. "

What's that number one record breaking film out right now with the clown villain?

If you actually understood political ideology Jeff, you would understand that you do not get more right-wing than the two Christopher Nolan Batman films.

comment #2

The Bandsaw Vigilante says ...

By the way, Alexandra DuPont totally disses on Jeff -- twice -- in her DARK NIGHT review at AICN:

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/37515

comment #3

The Bandsaw Vigilante says ...

Make that "DARK KNIGHT"...my bad.

comment #4

AbeGoldfarb says ...

And if you understood shading and complexity, Entropy, you'd understand that Nolan's Batman films aren't necessarily right-wing. Especially Dark Knight, the best film of the year so far, in which rough justice, bending the law to get results and unsanctioned wiretapping aren't condoned so much as puzzled over.

SPOILER ALERT

Whatever results are achieved through the right-wing actions of Bruce Wayne and the cops of Gotham are tempered immediately by blowback and the sense that this madness will continue forever. When Lucius Fox resigns over having to wiretap, Nolan's actually with him. The wiretapping finds the Joker, but Fox knows that on some moral level it's a defeat. Batman's continued presence ensures that escalation will continue, and Nolan doesn't seem to like it.

SPOILER OVER

It's a very conflicted film, and one of its prime pleasures is watching Nolan wrestle with himself over the issues at stake. It's also the first Batman film where Alfred might be morally suspect, however supportive.

comment #5

Entropy says ...

Abe,

"And if you understood shading and complexity, Entropy..."

All to well.

Spoiler Alert

But as you say, the wire -tapping does finally get the Joker. There is definitely complexity. But the film says several things that go against the core of modern progressive thought.

1. Pure unbridled evil for evil sake does exist and must be confronted. That is why there is no rational for the Joker. You cannot bargain with him. Much like modern fundamentalist Islam. It just wants you dead.

2. Sometimes extreme measures must be taken to achieve this.

Nolan is not with Fox. That is why the wire-tapping is a success. That is not to say the film does not present ethical problems. Nolan respects Fox's argument but is not with him. Remember Batman is the protagonist not Fox. Batman also uses torture. To a conflicted end to be sure...but he knows he must.

But even in the end, Batman knows that the first casualty in war is the truth. He knows that sometimes people need to be told what they need to hear in war...not necessarily the truth. The complexity comes in acknowledging that sometimes you have to lay down in the mud with your opponent and know your reasons are pure. That you must make the hard choice no one is willing to make. Alfred tells him that.

Batman knows Gotham and its citizens - are - worth saving. The ferry incident proves him right. The Joker is wrong. And in the end he makes the hard decision and the citizens will vilify him, his approval ratings in the mud. But we the viewer know the truth that he was right.

The complexity of the film is that sometimes you lose a bit of yourself in the process of the fight. But make no mistake, Nolan knows the fight must be had.

Remember, Nolan is a Brit and Britain has had many problems with terrorism over the years (IRA, Islam) and his view would probably not be that of the silver spoon Hollywood Pollyanna.

TDK will be like Forrest Gump. Celebrated now, but trashed in a few years when people actually figure out what is going on.

Your flaw is in assuming that someone could actually make a conservative movie that is complex. It is Jeff's flaw too.

comment #6

AbeGoldfarb says ...

I only assume that a film that is deliberately capital-C Conservative or capital-L Liberal sacrifices complexity in one way or another. All the tactics you name definitely work towards confronting this all-encompassing evil head-on, but they also ensure an environment where the conflict will grow.

If Nolan is not with Fox, why the chill over the room when Fox is told he must register too, as though he is an enemy combatant?

The decision on the ferry is not proof that Batman's doing the right thing. In an atmosphere of secrecy, fear and vigilantism, the decision is only made by someone who exists outside the law. The decision is neither Left nor Right, but humanist. Batman's belief system leaves no room for humanism, only a desperate hope that people are on some level not totally evil. A bit different and a bit more shaded.

You can't honestly believe that asking whether government cover-ups, torture and law-bending on an official level is a Pollyanna-ish attititude. If so, that is your flaw.

comment #7

AbeGoldfarb says ...

Sorry, that last paragraph should read

"You can't honestly believe that asking tough questions on the morality of government cover-ups, torture and law-bending on an official level is a Pollyanna-ish attititude. If so, that is your flaw."

comment #8

Entropy says ...

Abe,

No, I do not think it is Pollyannaish...but I also know that sometimes they might be required. The film knows this too. If all of Batman's Bush like tactics failed, then you could say that the film was against them...but they do not. They succeed. The complexity comes in that they succeed at a cost. Of course there is a chill with Fox. Fox is a good man in an impossible situation. Nolan recognizes that there are many ethical complications that arise from Batman's actions...but he also knows that the Joker - must - be stopped. And stop him he does

The film does not trash the liberal view as repped by Fox but it does acknowledge that it is ultimately the wrong course of action. And Fox, by allowing the "only this time" utterance, knows it too.

That is why the film is complex. But the ferry does prove Batman right. The people do not behave as Joker says they will. They are worth saving. Do you think Jeff, thinks America is worth saving. Based on his writing...I say no.

Everything in this film is a right-wing view of the War on Terror and if you like you should look at some right wing analysis of it. It is actually painfully clear to so many that this is what it is. I think that is why so many people do not want to discuss these elements in their reviews because to do so, would be to acknowledge what I am saying. Virtually no reviews are talking about these analogies except for in the most vague terms because the implications scare them. But make no mistake, Batman is GW Bush, The Joker is fundamentalist Islam and Gotham is America. At the end, Batman is the villain, but he did the right thing.

That is as complex as you can get. The other readings are just pop goth tween morality.

comment #9

KeithNYC says ...

Entropy,

Those are some really insightful comments.

It really raises the issue that left or right winger's wouldn't dare argue: Was Bush justified in emphasizing certain intelligence (or depending on your perspective, flat out lying) to justify what he saw as a higher end? Do the ends justify the means? Assume Bush and company really believed that war in Iraq was necessary for the greater good and our future, was he "wrong" to exaggerate a potential threat as "immediate"?

These are the type of moral debates we rarely hear about and if Nolan was intentionally addressing them, then kudos to him.

comment #10

facls says ...

Well, getting back to Elite Squad...

Jeff, here in Brazil the movie was originally released with the narration.

comment #11

AbeGoldfarb says ...

Even as a New Deal lefty, Entropy, I concede that you're making a well-reasoned analysis of TDK. I may not entirely go with it, but you're no troll. I do apologise if my first remark was a trifle snarky.

In any case, I think where I disagree with you is this: every victory in the film is Pyrrhic. It ends with all three "good guys" (Gordon, Wayne and Dent) in some kind of defeat or failure, with Batman's continued presence one of the factors that keeps Gotham suspended in a state of chaos.

Nolan's smart enough to know that in a time of crisis, morality can be an arguable thing. But he never forgets the cost of compromise. It's worth remembering that Dent, the liberal crusader, is seen by Batman as the real solution to Gotham's woes, and that it is through Batman's actions that he is radicalized and made into a terrorist.

I'm not scared of the right-wing implications of Nolan's vision, but I don't think he sees Batman as the right way to go. He's in the middle, perhaps acknowledging that the war on terrorism may be lost because it's been BEGUN. He also knows that once it's kicked off, the "ethical response" column is narrowed down to almost nothing.

This is why I love the film, and why it's so prismatic for so many viewpoints. Nolan's a born intellectual, and a slippery one to pin down. But I don't think he's inarguably Conservative. Independence and Liberalism are alive and well in young and old Britain, and I don't think every Liberal who's been mugged becomes a Conservative.

Plus, if we're saying that Batman is George Bush, we're implicitly blaming him for the escalation in terrorist warfare and innocent deaths, for overseeing a conflict that will stretch on into infinity. Batman's taking the fight to a real threat, while Bush's actions are based on pretty debatable rationales.

Anyway, I hope I don't come off as too fatuous about it. It's a real conversation, rare on these boards.

comment #12

sthdyn says ...

Target practice is not so good movie

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comment #15

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