comment #1

George Prager says ...

John "Seven Houses" McCain

comment #2

Mgmax says ...

How curmudgeonly is Jeffrey Wells?

Jeffrey Wells is so curmudgeonly he disproves the notion that everybody likes something different, but nobody doesn't like Sara Lee.

(I gotta say, though, I'm with you in my disdain for people who can't scratch-bake. Like baking from a box is really any easier. Go buy a brownie at Mrs. Fields, but not this crap.)

comment #3

arch451 says ...

I think Wells is on a diet or something.

comment #4

George Prager says ...

I had two Brown Sugar Cinnamon Pop Tarts today.

comment #5

rr3333 says ...

Was the stock boy giving you funny looks for taking pictures of Sara Lee cake mixes?

At least its on sale!

comment #6

Joshua Mooney says ...

So you'd prefer Billy Hearst's poor-quality cheese?

comment #7

Bocephus says ...

Earlier this week I made some peanut butter blondies. The recipe called for 1 cup of butter, but I substituted that for a few ripe bannanas and about 1/8 cup of smart balance.

They were delicious; reduced fat and sodium, and cholesterol free. I served them Elvis style with strawberry jam on top.

comment #8

nemo says ...

I'm picturing Jeffrey Wells struggling with a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde personality split. One side is Che Guevara thundering "Verboten! Death to the fascist insect that preys upon the people!" The other side is Homer Simpson murmuring "Mmm, donuts . . . mmm, Duncan Hines . . . mmm, Sarah Lee . . ."

comment #9

Catman says ...

I didn't know Jeff was pitching ideas for "Mimic IV...

comment #10

George Prager says ...

You know, there are about 70 different Pop-Tart flavors now (including Barbie Pop-Tarts and Trvial Pursuit Pop-Tarts). I sense a trend here. There is a lack of creativity amongst corporate types these days. They should come up with a new breakfast treat.

comment #11

George Prager says ...

Arthur "Two Sheds" Jackson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLjS3gzHetA

comment #12

Chapman Carruthers says ...

Wait..., it's now John "Ten Houses" McCain.

Check back later for another update. The number is rising faster than our national debt.

comment #13

Walter Sobchak says ...

I'm one of those weeeeeird people that actually prefers Pop-Tarts WITHOUT frosting.... In fact, I hate the ones with frosting....like the ones without frosting aren't sweet enough?

I thought that it had gotten to the point where to get non-frosted tarts I had to settle for strawberry as that was the only old-school flavor left.... yet on a recent cross-country trip I was happy to find blueberry non-frosted Pop-Tarts.... ahhhhh, heaven...

(File Under: "Things I didn't think I'd be discussing on a Movie web site today")

What a minute-
I like Pop-Tarts....I'm voting for McCain.... Damn it! I walked right into Wells' trap!

comment #14

Richardson says ...

Jeff -- if you took all the time you spent talking about fat people, taking pictures of fat people, taking pictures of food, yelling at fat people, etc., etc., etc. ...

if you took that time and spent just *half* of it exercising, you'd be in better physical shape (thus feeling better about yourself, not feeling the obsessive need to comment on fatness) and you'd feel better mentally because you wouldn't dwell as much on things you hate.

But, then, you'd probably live longer, so it's better for all of us if you keep doing it the way you're doing. (God, can you imagine how curmudgeonly Jeff will be if he ever reaches 65?)

comment #15

Walter Sobchak says ...

What do you mean "if he ever reaches 65"?

Uh oh. I hear the hook coming. Nice knowing y'all. I'll make sure to say "hi" to Richardson.

comment #16

Richardson says ...

Walter - I knew that was going to be a straight-man line; I just wasn't sure for who.

comment #17

George Prager says ...

Dutch Apple Frosted Pop-Tarts were the best. When did they stop making them? The fuckers!

comment #18

T. S. Idiot says ...

Real men eat the scones at Starbucks.

comment #19

Chapman Carruthers says ...

Last I heard, they were replaced with Dutch Oven Pop Tarts, a pastry so pungent the chemical frosting had to be contained on the inside.

comment #20

cjKennedy says ...

Real men make their own fucking coffee in a can stirred with a stick on a burning fire and wouldn't be caught dead inside a starbucks.

comment #21

T. S. Idiot says ...

I like the way Steve Martin makes coffee for Burt Lancaster in DEAD MEN DON'T WEAR PLAID.

comment #22

cjKennedy says ...

(full disclosure: I'm making no claim to real manhood. I'm a fan of their chocolate croissants buzzed in the microwave for 5 or 10 seconds.)

comment #23

MilkMan says ...

Real men don't drink coffee.

Real men do blow.

comment #24

astrophore says ...

the starbucks ain't so bad.

they try. coffee usually hot. lots of powders and stuff to flavor it with.

i've got the love/hate with the sameness, the uniformity. comforting and appalling.

and those baristas need to get through art school somehow. always working on the portfolio. showing some of those photos to the customers, the good ones. the regulars.

got the nikkomat in a thrift store, but it works real well.

you know tall americano? dude with all the pink ties? maybe he'd buy some of those photos. he seems kinda rich. he flashes that iphone a whole lot.

hey, tall americano, she's half your age. you have no shot. she barely sees you. and would be kinda creeped out if she knew, btw. let it go. just buy one of her pics. maybe the out-of-focus bridge. in black and white.

what, you think her starbucks options are in-the-money? are yours?

comment #25

115thDreamer says ...

Re: McCain, I think it's ten houses at seven different areas - some of the lots have more than one residence on them, evidently.

Leave the fatties alone, Jeff - let them stuff their guts and doze off on Nov. 4th - maybe they won't wake up until after the voting stations close. Anything to distract them is welcome - shiny objects, that day's TMZ episode...bring 'em on.

comment #26

MilkMan says ...

I think Astrophore is my favorite new commenter.
Keep 'em coming, Astro.

comment #27

astrophore says ...

thanks, milk. i owe a great debt to you.

but let's go with homage. it's what tarantino would do. along with a lot of weed.

just call me skim milkman.

comment #28

dangovich says ...

Earlier this week I made some peanut butter blondies. The recipe called for 1 cup of butter, but I substituted that for a few ripe bannanas and about 1/8 cup of smart balance.

Be careful, Jerry Seinfeld's wife might steal that.

comment #29

atticusrex says ...

All I know is... and I am showing my age here... is that I demand Sara Lee bring back those stupid delicious nut brownies! Remember that rectangle tray of frosting/nutty goodness from the '60's! Man oh Man I can still taste them....

as for all those houses McCain owns... it's actually his Wife and family not him directly that owns them. Besides what's the fuss... if Kerry had become President we would have had not only a Democrat in the Oval Office but the richest sitting President in our nation's history.

And Mr. Clinton and Al Gore have done pretty dang good for themselves since their 8 year run.

Tell me what Government Elected official is truly connected to the people? You wanna find a politician connected to the people?... watch a Frank Capra movie!

comment #30

Chapman Carruthers says ...

>>>Tell me what Government Elected official is truly connected to the people?

Bernie Sanders. God bless the great state of Vermont.

My comment regarding the number of houses John McCain owns wasn't meant as a swipe at any one political party. It was a swipe at fuckwads that own ten homes.

comment #31

Craptastic says ...

I ate one of those while jumping out of an airplane with my instructor yesterday...

Afterward, I was beaten to a pulp by thread-counting, Chill-swilling, film-snobby bloggers at an iPhone store.

comment #32

Adonis says ...

I think Nemo just presented the most compelling breakdown yet of the enigma that is Wells.

comment #33

Mgmax says ...

"Besides what's the fuss... if Kerry had become President we would have had not only a Democrat in the Oval Office but the richest sitting President in our nation's history."

Yes, I'm just sitting here chuckling at the thought of all the people who've suddenly discovered something terribly wrong about a senatorial presidential candidate living off his wife's vast inherited wealth.

Your hypocrisy is duly noted, all.

comment #34

C-PhreekII says ...

Would seem the phrase and thought behind "hoisted on your own petard" is lost on Mgmax.

You seem to have forgotten much was made of this by parties now silent when its their own presidential candidate.

You can note all the straw men you want.

comment #35

Richardson says ...

I thought the issue with McCain had more to do with "divorcing his wife while she was in the hospital treating her cancer in order to marry a woman who could pay for his political ambitions".

comment #36

D.Z. says ...

Mgmax: "Go buy a brownie at Mrs. Fields"

They're goin' outta business, apparently. ;-;

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/retail/cookie-maker-mrs-fields-files-chapter/

comment #37

Chapman Carruthers says ...

Another issue with McCain: He thinks Putin is the President of Germany.

http://www.oliverwillis.com/2008/06/09/john-mccain-putin-is-the-president-of-germany/

comment #38

Legowombat says ...

My best mate is 6ft4, weighs 100kgs, and looks like a champion bodybuilder. He is the laziest guy i've ever met. I work circles around him in the gym, he barely breaks a sweat.

He has McDonalds for lunch every day and will eat an entire Sarah Lee cake in one sitting. Entire blocks of chocolate.

I work a physical job. He's too lazy to work, and collects unemployment. I cycle. He doesn't even run. I don't eat junk food, and only eat my own low-fat home cooking. He can't pinch any fat on his sides, i'm always 10kgs overweight.

*#*$#* Genetics.

What any of this has to do with movies is beyond me, but weight definitely isn't as black and white as people just being lazy.

comment #39

VictorLazlo says ...

I want a study of how many are truly fat because of genetics.

comment #40

Adonis says ...

The laziness helps, Legwombat. That kind of story is like those when somebody, talking about smoking, says they have an uncle who lived to 94 smoking a pack a day and drinking scotch up until the day he died. Yeah, ok, some people are lucky.

Stats don't lie, though.

comment #41

T. S. Idiot says ...

In WHAT I TALK ABOUT WHEN I TALK ABOUT RUNNING, Murakami says that he has to struggle to maintain his youthful weight while his wife can eat whatever and however much she wants without gaining an ounce. Such is life.

comment #42

Mgmax says ...

"I thought the issue with McCain had more to do with "divorcing his wife while she was in the hospital treating her cancer in order to marry a woman who could pay for his political ambitions"."

I agree totally, I mean, who among us isn't qualified to pass moral judgement on the life choices of a young man who's just spent seven years in a prison camp?

comment #43

Ghost072 says ...

"I agree totally, I mean, who among us isn't qualified to pass moral judgement on the life choices of a young man who's just spent seven years in a prison camp?"

Wait a minute. John McCain was in a prison camp? Why have I never heard this before? I mean, really, if I were him, I would mention that as often as possible!

comment #44

Yves says ...

Prison camp is an appropriate description, as I'm sure he didn't suffer some of the fates of the prisoners that we keep. Funny that he keeps his mouths shut about that. I see McCain as Gob from Arrested Development: "Sure, you're going to pass moral judgment against the guy who spent seven years in a prison camp. Come on!"

comment #45

Ogami Itto says ...

I agree totally, I mean, who among us isn't qualified to pass moral judgement on the life choices of a young man who's just spent seven years in a prison camp?

So now it's seven years? I could've sworn that it was five and a half years. I guess seven years makes for a better campaign narrative.

comment #46

Ogami Itto says ...

That and the Mother Theresa thing.

comment #47

Ogami Itto says ...

I see McCain as Gob from Arrested Development: "Sure, you're going to pass moral judgment against the guy who spent seven years in a prison camp. Come on!"

I see McCain as Rudy Giuliani: substitute "9/11" for "POW." Subject, verb, POW.

comment #48

Chapman Carruthers says ...

"Whenever the issue of POWs comes up, they are seen as victims, and never as victimizers." -- Howard Zinn.

comment #49

Richardson says ...

"who among us isn't qualified to pass moral judgement on the life choices of a young man who's just spent seven years in a prison camp?"

Let me amend what you wrote to more accurately reflect what i'm saying:

"Who among us isn't qualified to pass judgement on the moral hypocrisy of a man who divorced his sick wife so he could marry a rich woman who would pay for his political ambitions... and then talks to the crowd about family values?"

Beyond which: "just"? How long a pass does he get? This was seven years after. At what point does it become immoral? Ten years? Twenty years?

comment #50

Richardson says ...

"Prison camp is an appropriate description, as I'm sure he didn't suffer some of the fates of the prisoners that we keep."

Haven't you seen the articles floating around? The things he describes happen are all things that Bush & Cheney removed from the definition of "torture".

Anyway, I don't think you can say that a man who was stabbed in the crotch with a bayonet didn't suffer.

comment #51

C-PhreekII says ...

"...pass moral judgement on the life choices of a young man...

Gets better and better, now McCain was some "kid" making poor choices. He was nearly 45.

Before this, it was Bush getting a DUI at 30 and it later being dismissed as "youthful indiscretions."

comment #52

MilkMan says ...

Obama's media managers need to go after McCain on the whole POW thing. Produce a commercial which re-enacts McCain's time at the Hanoi Hilton, showing him taking a bubble bath, sipping champagne, partying with hookers, ratting out other prisoners and smoking stogies with the guards while those he ratted out get tortured on a electrified bed frame. Real grainy, 8mm footage. Attack his war hero status. Imply that he took a seven year vacation.

comment #53

VictorLazlo says ...

MILKMAN: I don't know if you were being sarcastic but I agree, the Republicans did it with Kerry and the purple heart band-aids.

comment #54

Walter Sobchak says ...

Ah damn it, Chapman Caruthers... why did you have to go and quote Howard Zinn? Now I'm going to have to automatically discount anything you ever say. I wish it hadn't come to this.

comment #55

Walter Sobchak says ...

What a minute? John Kerry fought in Vietnam?

comment #56

MilkMan says ...

I'm not being sarcastic at all.

I think they should question it, that's all.

Don't say it didn't happen, just question what happened, plant seeds of doubt.

My sktech of what the commerical should be is too broad, of course, but I'm sure there's a media/advertising guru out there who could come up with something a little more nuanced.

Maybe the commerical could include an interview with someone who spent time with McCain at the Hanoi Hilton (not that this has to be true either, they could run some fine print below the talking head, something along the lines of: NOT AN ACTUAL POW, just make sure the letters are small), maybe they could incorporate some footage from the film The Hanoi Hilton (87, dir. Lionel Chetwynd, starring Michael Moriarty, David Soul, Paul Le Mat), but not footage that includes any of the actors, just footage of establishing shots, inserts, to set the mood, then they can edit in the grainy 8mm re-enactment footage.

comment #57

George Prager says ...

"McCain, who huddled with advisors at his desert compound in Sedona, Ariz., said nothing in public. A nine-car motorcade took him to a nearby Starbucks early in the morning, where he ordered a large cappuccino. McCain otherwise avoided reporters."

http://www.latimes.com/news/science/la-na-campaign22-2008aug22,0,1254408.story

comment #58

T. S. Idiot says ...

John "Vente" McCain

comment #59

C-PhreekII says ...

T.S. - nice one. Columbia boys, represent.

comment #60

Chapman Carruthers says ...

There are two 'r's' in Carruthers, boys.

Sob... chak.... jayhawk: I'm not the sort of guy to be taken seriously. I'm sitting here at my work desk, secretaries abound, right eyeball plastered to my computer monitor, analyzing tiny youtube videos to definitevly determine whether the rain-drenched bikinis worn by the american female volleyball players are indeed see-through.

Oh, I'm also enjoying a choco-taco. I say enjoying, but that's not the case. It's turned into a psychiatry session thanks to the picture at the top of the thread. I look down on this sweet dessert and think of John McCain's necrotic body. And his ten homes. And the word "tar baby," which makes me think I'm a racist. A moment ago, it started to melt and I said, in a manner that startled my coworker, "ew, gook-y," which pretty much proves that I am. Too bad I'm 28 and can't blame my feelings on some conflict that happened 40 years ago. Maybe Howard Zinn will write about my experience in his next book. One thing's for certain, though, John McCain ruined my afternoon snack, and he'll most certainly pay for this.

comment #61

Kim Voynar says ...

"Ah damn it, Chapman Caruthers... why did you have to go and quote Howard Zinn? Now I'm going to have to automatically discount anything you ever say. I wish it hadn't come to this. "

Well, in my book, Chapman rose several notches in my book by quoting Zinn, so I guess it depends on your perspective. If he'd thrown in some Chomsky to boot, he'd have been golden.

Getting the subject back to movies ... anyone (besides me) seriously stoked about this 4 hour Zinn doc playing at TIFF?

comment #62

Yves says ...

MilkMan's commercial:
VO Narration: "John McCain was tortured, abused, and nearly killed as a POW in Hanoi." Scenes of John McCain in the prison camp followed. Dissolve into clips of him mixing up the Shiites and the Sunnis and calling Putin the president of Germany. "Is a man that suffered from such humiliation and trauma fit to lead the country? Vote for Barack Obama," shots of Obama, smiling, "intelligence, leadership, change." Funded by the POW Veterans for Truth.

comment #63

Walter Sobchak says ...

Chapman, calling me a "jayhawk" is easily the most offensive thing you have ever said on this website... I shant forgive you anytime soon...

(Go Tigers)

...And a four hour doc on Howard Zinn? Good God....

comment #64

Mgmax says ...

"Prison camp is an appropriate description, as I'm sure he didn't suffer some of the fates of the prisoners that we keep."

Instead of being "sure," why don't you actually read about his imprisonment, and then you'll know better than to shoot your mouth off saying something as asinine as suggesting that the Viet Cong treated him better than we treat al-Qaeda at Guantanamo.

"Beyond which: "just"? How long a pass does he get? This was seven years after. At what point does it become immoral? Ten years? Twenty years?"

Since he himself says it was wrong, perhaps you should ask him, not me. Nevertheless, not having the stern moral compass of all you Clinton-Edwards supporters, I'm a little more reluctant to declare black or white the actions of someone who saw his youth vanish in a cell in Hanoi. My failing, I'm sure.

""Whenever the issue of POWs comes up, they are seen as victims, and never as victimizers." -- Howard Zinn."

Yeah, well, an eternal Red apologist like Howard Zinn would look at it that way, wouldn't he? Who cares what he thinks, besides tenured profs at second-rate state schools?

"Getting the subject back to movies ... anyone (besides me) seriously stoked about this 4 hour Zinn doc playing at TIFF?"

No.

comment #65

Richardson says ...

"suggesting that the Viet Cong treated him better than we treat al-Qaeda at Guantanamo"

Seriously! By all accounts, they treated him virtually identically. ... Of course, that means it's not "torture".

"not having the stern moral compass of all you Clinton-Edwards supporters"

Max - considering how loud you cry when anybody ascribes *any* standard conservative views to you that you don't actually hold, I'd think you'd be slower to leap to conclusions based on no evidence. I'm not particularly a Clinton or Edwards supporter. Clinton did some good stuff politically, but they both seem like pretty shitty guys personally.

That said, neither Clinton nor Edwards campaigned on the sanctity of marriage, but how could they? They've both only been married once! What do they know?

"I'm a little more reluctant to declare black or white the actions of someone who saw his youth vanish in a cell in Hanoi."

The idea that one single event in a lifetime, no matter how indisputibly horrible, makes him exempt from any sort of moral judgement for the rest of his life is absolutely absurd.

And, I might add, sounds a lot more like liberal criminal coddling than I would expect from you, Max. "Of course he robbed that store -- he had a difficult childhood!"

comment #66

C-PhreekII says ...

Dude, the guy was already 31 when he was captured, 36 when he came out. So either his youth was over or it still had some time left depending you your point view. My book, your "youth" is about 16 - 25ish. Then you need to start ALWAYS acting like a man, not just when it's convenient to get booze or cooze.

Still doesn't change the fact that he was 45 when left his wife, who avoided the affairs and divorces other POW wives have indulged in, for a younger woman.

comment #67

atticusrex says ...

DAMN! And I thought this thread was about frozen delights! LOL!

Look if we want a true hero is all sense of the word as our President then let's revive/resurrect Teddy Roosevelt! Best dang President of the 20th century IMHO.

Or the same with Ike. You could even make an argument for JFK, though there are way too many dark clouds hanging over that Presidency. If he had lived I really don't think history would have been kind to him.... but he was a war hero.

For me... this year comes down to who the two men pick as their running mates. I know that a VP isn't usually the reason to vote for a ticket... but in this case... That said we could go back to the original way things were done here when we were a fledging democracy... The loser is the VP. I kinda like have the President and VP balanced.

comment #68

C-PhreekII says ...

Seeing that the POW is getting harped on, better not look to closely at that or it begins to look a lot less deifying. Forget the whispers of better treatment, etc what always makes me wonder about him is the fact that he tried to commit suicide.

Now, you, me, and other military guys in a POW camp giving up is one thing. But if someone wants to be the person who has to make the big, hard decisions for this country, I don't want that person to be someone who just gave up at one point. Country, wife, kids, parents - none were enough sustain him.

What happens when Russia, Iran and China all start shit the same week? Is McCain just going to say "Fuck it, nuke the assholes?" I mean, if staying alive for the first family wasn't enough back in '68, what's going to make him avoid dooming us all simply because it will endanger the new one?

comment #69

Mgmax says ...

C-Phreek II, I find your comments either astonishingly obtuse, or astonishingly loathsome. Take your pick.

comment #70

Chapman Carruthers says ...

>>>I'm a little more reluctant to declare black or white the actions of someone who saw his youth vanish in a cell in Hanoi

Just for clarification, do you mean youth as in youth or youth as in innocence? Because if we're talking about the loss of time, the loss of five productive years of one's life, then I certainly feel bad for McCain, as I would for anyone who was imprisoned (in whatever fashion), slaving away for a multinational, or child-rearing for an unfaithful spouse.

If you mean youth as in innocence, was he really all the innocent by the time he was captured? The USS Forrestal probably took care of that. Seeing your friends die, severed body parts, and skin sloughing off of bone would probably shred the remains of innocence from most anyone. And yet, after witnessing this, McCain continued to conduct bombing runs over North Vietnam. Now THAT raises some questions in my mind, and, if nothing else, turns the grey a little bit more black.

comment #71

Mgmax says ...

Well, Chapman, you are free to look at it that way, because the military you despise and denigrate has bought you that freedom with its blood.

comment #72

Richardson says ...

"because the military you despise and denigrate has bought you that freedom with its blood."

I can't believe there's still a person alive who thinks that the war in Vietnam helped America to be freer.

comment #73

MilkMan says ...

The Military doesn't bring freedom to anyone, and it never has. It brings death and destruction too many, and immense profits to a few. It's the people of any given nation who are responsible for their own freedom. The citizens of Romania didn't need any military to bring about a new era of freedom. It was the impotence and apathy of that military that allowed freedom. And the freedom of Americans hasn't been challenged by a foreign source since, oh, the 1770's. Those kids over in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't fighting for MY freedom; they're the world's largest global security force, ensuring that new markets are established, so that the virus of capitalism is allowed to incubate in a new host.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. The last time I heard someone pull out the old "fighting so you can be free" canard was a few years ago, when my Uncle, in a drunken rage, said it in response to my objections about nuking Iran.

comment #74

Mgmax says ...

I can't believe there's a person still alive who thinks that the victory of the Viet Cong helped the Vietnamese to be freer.

"The citizens of Romania didn't need any military to bring about a new era of freedom."

Apparently there are TWO people on this board alone who think the Soviet Union collapsed and democracy triumphed because they just felt like it.

And remember, it's the red-staters who work for a living and raise their kids and save for retirement who are dumbasses who don't understand anything about the world.

comment #75

MilkMan says ...

You said it, not me. The Soviet Empire collapsed because their system no longer worked. It ate itself from the inside. To ascribe this collapse to some kind of heroism on the part of America is the height of arrogance. I guess everything that happens to everyone is all because of us, right? You've just summed up the problem that about five and half billion people have with us.

comment #76

Richardson says ...

"I can't believe there's a person still alive who thinks that the victory of the Viet Cong helped the Vietnamese to be freer."

That's not something that ANYBODY said. You, on the other hand, made the statement that American soldiers in Vietnam died to buy freedom for Americans. That's not true. The most you can say is that most of them probably felt that was true, which is unfortunate.

comment #77

Chapman Carruthers says ...

>>>Well, Chapman, you are free to look at it that way, because the military you despise and denigrate has bought you that freedom with its blood.

Despise and denigrate are such strong words. Can we just settle on mock and lambast? And before you get in a tizzy, most everyone else I say this shit to finds a kernel of truth in it. That includes my brother (army special forces) and my dad (vietnam vet, former professor at the naval academy and war college). The list possibly includes both of my grandfathers. But I can't be sure. The headstones at San Francisco National Cemetery are notoriously difficult to converse with.

comment #78

Yves says ...

Instead of being "sure," why don't you actually read about his imprisonment, and then you'll know better than to shoot your mouth off saying something as asinine as suggesting that the Viet Cong treated him better than we treat al-Qaeda at Guantanamo.
I am discusted by the hypocracy of a man who claims to have been tortured in a prison camp keeping his mouth shut at a time in our history when the greatest, and self-proclaimed freest, country in the world is advocating torture, even if it is against our enemies. I don't need to read about his imprisonment to see the political binds that tie him now, and prevent him from standing up for what he knows is wrong (torture), at the expense of his dreams (the presidency).

Well, Chapman, you are free to look at it that way, because the military you despise and denigrate has bought you that freedom with its blood.
Uh, no. The military hasn't bought me shit. Any freedom I have is bought by my own integration of the constitution and willingness to stand up and fight for my rights. I take it that you are a military man, Mgmax, well, that's nice, but when you strip away all the pride and patriotism in the warrior class, you will see that it is just another job, where you pledge your allegiance to people who could care less whether you live or die (Rumsfeld) and deny you the resources to protect yourself when they send you on silly wars to protect their corporate interests.

Apparently there are TWO people on this board alone who think the Soviet Union collapsed and democracy triumphed because they just felt like it.
And apparently you think we invaded them. The Soviet Union was collapsing way before Reagan told Gorbie to "tear down that wall," and the claim that he had everything to do with it is nothing but conservative commentator myth making. Do you think for yourself or do you let Fox News and the radio do it for you?

And remember, it's the red-staters who work for a living and raise their kids and save for retirement who are dumbasses who don't understand anything about the world.
You said it.

Geez, MilkMan, let someone else in the ring!

comment #79

Mgmax says ...

"To ascribe this collapse to some kind of heroism on the part of America is the height of arrogance. I guess everything that happens to everyone is all because of us, right?"

Were there any particular Reagan moments that you can recall being sources of strength or encouragement to you and your colleagues?

I have to laugh. People who take freedom for granted, Ronald Reagan for granted, always ask such questions. Of course! It was the great brilliant moment when we learned that Ronald Reagan had proclaimed the Soviet Union an Evil Empire before the entire world. There was a long list of all the Western leaders who had lined up to condemn the evil Reagan for daring to call the great Soviet Union an evil empire right next to the front-page story about this dangerous, terrible man who wanted to take the world back to the dark days of the Cold War. This was the moment. It was the brightest, most glorious day. Finally a spade had been called a spade. Finally, Orwell's Newspeak was dead. President Reagan had from that moment made it impossible for anyone in the West to continue closing their eyes to the real nature of the Soviet Union.

--Natan Sharansky, interview with Tom Rose, June 2004

comment #80

MilkMan says ...

You win, Mgmax. Anytime someone brings out Reagan to bolster their argument automatically wins by default, as I am too busy rolling on the ground in laughter to form any kind of cogent response. Yes, Reagan is the greatest American of the 20th Century. His erudition and statesmanship were second to none. I would lay that old Bobcat riff about Reagan/Ronald McDonald down on you, but it's pointless, not to mention stale. That Ronald Reagan, to a sizable portion of people (or as I like to call them, The Abramhoff Kids) somehow deserves entrance into the pantheon of Great Men is like something out of science fiction, or Baudrilliard, not that there is a difference.

And dude, seriously, if you think Reagan wrote anything he ever said while he was President, then...I don't know what to tell you. Maybe who you should be worshipping are his speechwriters. I think your idolatry is misplaced. Go to the source, brother.

comment #81

Walter Sobchak says ...

"The Military doesn't bring freedom to anyone, and it never has. It brings death and destruction too many, and immense profits to a few."

That's a dumb thing to say, even for a dirty hippy. So, how did the people of Holland, France, Belgium, etc, achieve freedom in 1944/45? The Nazis just got bored and left on their own? Oh that's right... the Dennis Kucinich Sr. brigade quietly walked through Western Europe, displaying peace signs and giant protest puppets of Hitler and Mussolini... the Axis were so shamed by their war-mongering ways they simply went home and cried....

comment #82

Mgmax says ...

Well, Milkman, too bad you couldn't have been at Perm 35 in Siberia to tell prisoner Sharansky what a dumbshit he was for believing anything Reagan said.

comment #83

MilkMan says ...

I figured it out: Mgmax is Armond White.

Too bad you can't be at Gitmo, Mgmax, to tell all of those detainees, who we have refused due process, who have been tortured in much the same manner that your boy McCain was, what a peaceful, freedom-loving country we are.

And when in doubt, Walter, always bust out with some good old WW2. I bet you like to regale the youngsters with tales of high school glory, too, right?

comment #84

D.Z. says ...

Mgmax: "I agree totally, I mean, who among us isn't qualified to pass moral judgement on the life choices of a young man who's just spent seven years in a prison camp? "

Considering she's the only one who would have waited for him that long, even if he died, I imagine his wife is the most qualified to judge him.

"Instead of being "sure," why don't you actually read about his imprisonment, and then you'll know better than to shoot your mouth off saying something as asinine as suggesting that the Viet Cong treated him better than we treat al-Qaeda at Guantanamo."

Well, the 'Cong didn't just capture random white civilians...

"Since he himself says it was wrong, perhaps you should ask him, not me. Nevertheless, not having the stern moral compass of all you Clinton-Edwards supporters, I'm a little more reluctant to declare black or white the actions of someone who saw his youth vanish in a cell in Hanoi."

Not that I advocate what Clinton and Edwards did, but I think McCain divorcing her is slightly scummier than just cheating, since she had been by his side through his worst moments.

"Well, Chapman, you are free to look at it that way, because the military you despise and denigrate has bought you that freedom with its blood."

I don't consider myself free while we're occupying someone else for money.

"I can't believe there's a person still alive who thinks that the victory of the Viet Cong helped the Vietnamese to be freer."

Dubya seems to think that way, since he wants to do trade with them.

"Apparently there are TWO people on this board alone who think the Soviet Union collapsed and democracy triumphed because they just felt like it."

The place collapsed because of the same inherent cronyism and inattention to economic, environmental, and militaristic consequences being adapted by Republicans.

"President Reagan had from that moment made it impossible for anyone in the West to continue closing their eyes to the real nature of the Soviet Union."

Then he lost his moment, when he wanted to have it both ways by funding Osama and doing business with Iran.

Milkman: "And the freedom of Americans hasn't been challenged by a foreign source since, oh, the 1770's."

You know that we only won WWII because of good planning. If we had screwed up, then that would have been it for us.

comment #85

MilkMan says ...

Some very good points, D.Z.

Although I will say that I have never been presented with any evidence that the Nazi's had any plans to take over North America. That seems to be a projection based on their psychopathic behavior. They couldn't even take over the Russians, who were just as responsible for their demise as we were, if not more so.

comment #86

Mgmax says ...

"And when in doubt, Walter, always bust out with some good old WW2. I bet you like to regale the youngsters with tales of high school glory, too, right?"

You're the one who generalized about war. Don't blame Walter for keeping a fan on his desk when you stick your face into it.

comment #87

MilkMan says ...

I think you have a crush on me, Mgmax. But I think you have an even bigger crush on Walter. You mean the fan that Walter had to clear off of his desk when he ravaged you Big Easy-style, the fan that Walter uses to dry your toenails when he's done painting them? That fan is a little old and dusty, don't you think? But seeing how both you and Walter live in a noir-lit fantasy world, the type of place where people still have fans on their desks, it kind of helps with the ambience. Next time I visit I'll make sure to wear my Scoot McNairy Brand Fedora, so I don't stand out from the crowd.

comment #88

D.Z. says ...

Milkman: I guess. Sometimes economic hegemony can do as much damage as occupation, too. If the Nazis took over countries vital to our trade and supply routes, it's possible they could stick it to us economically, if not politically. Not that that should be the only reason to go to war, but look what happened when the Brits got that dangerous.

comment #89

Mgmax says ...

About 1 in 4 times I find that act as funny as everybody else, Milky.

The other 3 it's self-indulgent tapdancing to avoid the lack of a point.

comment #90

Chapman Carruthers says ...

What a punchy little phrase. I have no idea what Big Easy style means, but it sounds like some hardcore, sleep-deprived ass-ravaging by a guy who's junk smells like stale bourbon and smoked bacon. If this is the sort of stuff John McCain put up with for five years in 'Nam, then I take back my previous statements. Being part of a carrier explosion can simply not prepare a man for the mental anguish created when his tonsils are friction-burned by a swampy penis.

comment #91

MilkMan says ...

The people have spoken to me, Mgmax, and they have told me that they are ready for a change. They are sick and tired of partisan politics. They want someone who speaks for them. I have taken it upon myself to be that man. And while I may be in the cross hairs of men like you, it's still good to know that I can turn to Chapman Curruthers when I need a helping hand. Chapman Curruthers is a friend. He's there when I need him.

comment #92

MilkMan says ...

And Mgmax: Dancing is my life. That is the point.

You know who told me that? Irving. My grandfather. He also told me that people who spend their lives searching for a point are totally missing the point. This coming from the man who farted at the dinner table as a way of announcing that he was finished. He had lots of friends. He touched a lot of people's lives. That's why he died alone in a hospital with no one to hold his hand or touch his face. That's why no one was at his funeral, including me.

My point is, uh...I guess I don't really have one. You got me there.

But you have a point. Well, let's hear your point. How many points do you have. Do you have just one point? And if you do, can you please make it already. I'm dying to know what your point is. I expect that you will tell me your point and it will be a life-altering occasion, as you acquired wisdom and knowledge spans the course of centuries.

comment #93

MilkMan says ...

Why am I speaking with a British accent? Because I have a Northern soul, my friend. In my head I live in a dingy, cloudy, black and white world. I look around and I don't recognize any thing. The landscape of my childhood is gone, replaced with a landscape that looks almost the same, but not enough to make me happy. I like to watch kitchen sink dramas in color, and the only place I can do that is my brother's yacht, where I am staying for the weekend.

comment #94

frankbooth says ...

Mark it on your calendars: the day MilkMan went supernova.

comment #95

Kim Voynar says ...

"I can't believe there's a person still alive who thinks that the victory of the Viet Cong helped the Vietnamese to be freer."

And I can't believe there are still relatively intelligent people who buy into the bullshit propoganda our government has been feeding us about Vietnam for 30+ years.

The Vietnam "conflcit" happened because the US gov't knew it couldn't win a fair election to install a puppet client government that would serve our interests. We started that war on the belief that we could accomplish with military might what we couldn't win in a philosophical battle, because the vast majority of the Vietnamese peasant population at that time supported a communist government.

And of course, in the process, we killed how many millions of innocent men, women and children in Vietnam (and, incidentally, Laos and Cambodia)? You really need to do some reading beyond the proganda fed you by the mainstream media, which in its way is every bit as bad as Pravda ever hoped to be in serving the interests of the state.

"Well, Chapman, you are free to look at it that way, because the military you despise and denigrate has bought you that freedom with its blood."

Our military has "bought" freedom (really, the serving of US interests in the name of "freedom") with the blood of countless innocents who had the misfortune to be in the path of what "we" wanted.

What our government and military have done, largely, is spin bullshit stories that feed the popular perception of whatever terror of the moment they're choosing to spin -- Islamic terrorists, Communists, "extremists" -- in the way that best serves the interests of the power elite. They lie, all the time, while waving the banner that America is the arbiter of freedom and justice.

Do I thank them for doing that, with billions of taxpayer dollars, while largely ignoring the vast social problems in their own backyard? No, I don't. I respect the men and women who are in the trenches of the military, honestly doing what they believe to be the right thing, but not the puppet masters pulling the strings.

comment #96

Mgmax says ...

Hey Voynar, plus ça change:

"Mailer took a hard line against the Vietnam War, but given his anti-Stalinist sophistication, his hard line could not be a simple line. He understood that in Vietnam, America’s enemies were Communists, and not just nationalists with a red star; and he wished Communism on nobody. He knew that America’s antiwar doves were, in overwhelming numbers, hopelessly muddled on Communist themes. A good many young stalwarts of the New Left and a few of the older people, too, were openly pro-Communist, in one fashion or another. A still larger number, “a firm minority” of the antiwar movement, in his description, were secretly pro-Communist, at least in regard to Asia. And the dove majority avoided facing the problem posed by Communism altogether.

"What would happen to Indochina and the rest of the world if Communism were to carry the day in Vietnam? The dove majority, in Mailer’s judgment, “simply refused to face the possibility.” The mass peace movement, its grown-ups, anyway, had compressed a hostility to the war into what he called a “hopeless mélange, somehow firmed, of Pacifism and closet Communism.” And the resulting national debate over Vietnam seemed to him twisted and fake: “The hawks were smug and self -righteous, the doves were evasive of the real question.”

"You could wonder, reading those acrid observations, why Mailer wanted anything to do with antiwar demonstrations. But he had his reasons, which combined a pragmatic assessment with a larger political prognostication; and this larger prognostication of his turns out to have been 80 percent brilliant. Mailer prophesied that Communism, based on its inbuilt inadequacies, was going to collapse. There was no reason to go to war against it. His analysis would loom today as totally brilliant if only he had added a 20 percent tip about what was meanwhile likely to happen to the unhappy people of Indochina during the interval between America’s withdrawal from the war and the Communists’ eventual withdrawal from Communist doctrine — the interim experiences of policy-driven famine and poverty in Vietnam, extreme oppression, “boat people” fleeing for their lives and Cambodian horrors: the Indochinese catastrophes that have still not registered in the consciences of Americans when they are feeling dovish, just as Hiroshima and Nagasaki have not yet registered in the consciences of Americans when they are feeling hawkish."

--Paul Berman, in today's New York Times, nailing you and other folks in this thread to a fucking T

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/books/review/Berman-t.html

comment #97

Chapman Carruthers says ...

Warriors are humanitarians, while the humanitarians are communists. Communists, of course, are people that believe in a certain economic model, which, if that's what you're trying to say, makes you're argument absurd. The only way it works is if you argue that humanitarians are fascists, or believers of the political system that accompanies the economic models you cite, which by definition, makes them inhumanitarian.

So, humanitarians are inhumanitarians (B=C), and warriors are the humanitarians which makes them also inhumanitarians (A=C). All you've proven is that we live in a crazy, fucked up world, Mad Max. But, I do get in a certain amount of comfort in knowing you pine for its destruction.

comment #98

Kim Voynar says ...

MGMax,

You're quoting Berman, a man who's defended the Iraq war repeatedly as being justified because it was a "war on facism," and who advocated the overthrow of Hussein on the grounds that it was moral to try to establish a liberal society (read: imposing US capitalist values on Iraq (and other countries) whether they want it or not), while completing ignoring the fact that our government supported Saddam and Iraq when it served what our "leaders" saw as US interests, and then turned him into the enemy when he got out of control.

Kind of how we built the foundation of Al Quaeda in Afghanistan with our military dollars, training and weapons when it was convenient for us to have them in the trenches fighting the Commies for us, then turned them into the enemy when it became convenient to do that.

The US has a long and bloody history of meddling in other countries and cultures in the name of furthering our interests. We support the governments of client states (i.e, Guatemala, El Salvador) so long as we can work behind the scenes to put in place puppet governments that will do what "we" say and support what "we" want, and overlook the atrocities those governments -- often violent military dictatorships -- do to their own people, largely the poor peasant population.

You know, little things like the vast "disappearances" in Guatemala for which their leaders have never been held accountable, the shutting down of attempts to form workers unions and unite the peasant population to enable them to better their own living conditions, the murders of religious activists. We ignore all the bad things the governments of our client states do, because, well, they're serving our interest, so who really cares if they murder a million or more peasants in the process? Hey, so long as we can have our McMansions and luxury SUVs, it's all good, right?

Meanwhile, folks like Berman fall right into the propoganda model that supports the interests of our capitalist government by writing crap that supports the war in Iraq, supports the ideas behind the war in Vietnam, and criticizes the Sandanistas in Nicaragua (who of course, had to be "bad" guys because their government during that time was not a shadow government for the United States).

The propoganda model assumes that the mass media (including writers like Berman) would goose-step merrily right in line with government interest in suppressing the horrors committed by client states like El Salvador and Guatemala while magnifying the same things in a non-client state in Nicaragua, and that's exactly what they did, and continue to do.

As for Vietnam, et al -- WE used Laos as a covert (and illegal) base of operations, recruited Laotian military and civilians to support us, and then abdandoned them altogether when they no longer served our purposes. WE pounded South Vietnam to bits and killed hundreds of thousands of innocents there in the name of "freeing and protecting" South Vietnam from Communism. We went to war in Vietnam because Ho Chi Minh was, at that time, the strongest and ablest political figure in Indochina, we couldn't defeat him in a fair election and install our own puppet government, and so we tried to use our military might to get rid of a Communist leader, in the process nearly destroying a country.

We weren't invited in to "help" South Vietnam by any kind of legitimate sovereign government, so we just went in anyhow, because we're big, we have weapons, and we can, so screw the UN and any global ideas about when it's right or necessary to engage in warfare. We're the biggest bully on the playground, so we can do what the hell we want, so long as we slap a label of democracy and freedom on it and spin it properly, right? We even used force to destroy the Buddhists, who had the only other organized and legitimate political force at the time, because we couldn't control them.

As for Cambodia: WE bombed and invaded Cambodia. Our military aggression and mass murder of civilians there was directly responsible for mobilizing much of the peasant population to support the Khmer Rouge to get us out of their country. Oh, and then we turned around and aided the Khemer Rouge in to 1980s to the tune of millions of dollars.

We created those boat people, MgMax. We went into their countries, bombed the hell out of them, destroyed their villages, murdered innocent men, women and children, mostly peasants with no means to defend themselves, all because we couldn't have a Communist leader we couldn't control running a country that doesn't belong to us. We created the situation that led to the boat people having to flee their country to begin with, and then you try to blame it all on us LEAVING?

We abandoned Laos, leaving countless Laotians who had helped us to be rounded up in camps and murdered. We did that. And that's not being an apologist, that's looking beyond the bullshit propoganda fed to us by the mainstream media to see how they've spun the stories they write about those situations to serve the interest of the government that instigated it.

Your Berman quote nails nothing, MgMax, other than the extremity of your ignorance about our government, its actions around the world, and the tales widely spun to convince you and your ilk that, it's okay, we're really the good guys here.

comment #99

MilkMan says ...

Ouch, Mgmax.

comment #100

T. S. Idiot says ...

Purely in the interest of rounding it off to an even 100, I'll just say I like the scones at Starbucks. Bon appetit to all.

comment #101

Richardson says ...

Hmmm... seems strange to quote a guy who agrees that "there was no reason to go to war against communism" as defense of your statement that going to war in Vietnam saved American lives and freedom...

but, then, nothing you say politically ever makes any sense anyway, max.

comment #102

Mgmax says ...

Yeah, well, Voynar, that pretty much proves Berman and Mailer's point: any stick that can be picked up to beat the US is good, no matter how bloodstained it is. (Of course, the irony that this expediency is exactly the main sin you accuse the US of is lost on you.)

Everything is all our fault. The poor Japanese just wanted oil. Hitler just wanted lebensraum. The South just wanted its way of life. Where does it end, Voynar? When do other people have to take responsibility for their own choices? At what point do we stop infantilizing the rest of the world by just seeing them as our puppets in the great Chomskyan drama of Snidely McAmericalash, evil predator on decent peoples?

comment #103

Mgmax says ...

"but, then, nothing you say politically ever makes any sense anyway, max."

Then it must suck that it keeps winning elections.

comment #104

MilkMan says ...

No, it just sucks that it keeps stealing them.

comment #105

Chapman Carruthers says ...

You ramble like a man that classifies people into tiers, and the only interaction you've had with someone from lower than the first (aside the daily interaction with yourself) is when you were sent abroad to kill, free, maim, and protect the people, who by god, just needed some savin'. Or is that killin'. Fuck, I always forget.

You ramble like someone who hates people.

You ramble like someone who advocates a world to which he doesn't belong, and one he'll soon be priced out of.

You simply ramble. You're not here to learn from others, or from the information Wells posts. You're just here, hunkering down in enemy territory, because it's all you know. You're just here to make the same fucking point, over, and over, and over, using the biggest and bloodiest stick as possible. Knocking us over the head with irrelevant comebacks and testimonials from former US spies decrying the existence of imaginary enemies after spending, and rightfully so, a decade in one of their prisons.

And laughable phrases, like foreign countries have to take "responsibility for their own choices." What does that even mean? That you want to teach them? You want to pull out the spatula and spank over the ass until they cough up oil?

You sound like John Wayne in his 1971 Playboy interview. Expect, at least he let everyone know where he stood on the issues. He called a spade a spade (or is that...). You just beat around the bush, and hide your narrow-mindedness under a cloud of nobility.

comment #106

T. S. Idiot says ...

"You ramble like someone who hates people."

As good a definition of conservatism as any.

comment #107

MilkMan says ...

Max: Time to go on vacation and visit some places that are more your speed.

comment #108

Mgmax says ...

Sooner or later, it always comes down to banning the opinion that disagrees with yours, doesn't it, Milkman?

It is gratifying that so many of you work so hard at keeping my (exceedingly mainstream, in another age liberal, by no means lockstep conservative) viewpoints from polluting the purity of your echo chamber.

But I gotta tell you, it's no way to win elections. Spekaing of vacations, I just might take that first month after November 4th off, though, because it's starting to look like it could be pretty batshit-ugly around here. Among all you good friendly liberals who love people so, as demonstrated by the warmheartedness and good cheer of your posts here.

comment #109

MilkMan says ...

Oh, don't be so sensitive. No one is calling for you to be banned. It was a suggestion to take a vacation from this THREAD, Max. Don't act like a victim. It doesn't suit you.

comment #110

Mjs says ...

"But I gotta tell you, it's no way to win elections. Spekaing of vacations, I just might take that first month after November 4th off, though, because it's starting to look like it could be pretty batshit-ugly around here. Among all you good friendly liberals who love people so, as demonstrated by the warmheartedness and good cheer of your posts here."

The way to win elections these days, apparently, is to disparage the serviceof a veteran. I hope the Dem's recognize that, and take part in it. Blast McCain and his "service" and for leaving his first wife. You don't think the other side would do that? they have.

And you Republicans are just so damn pleasant and accepting of others views, right Max.

comment #111

Kim Voynar says ...

Sayeth Mgmax:

"Where does it end, Voynar? When do other people have to take responsibility for their own choices? At what point do we stop infantilizing the rest of the world by just seeing them as our puppets in the great Chomskyan drama of Snidely McAmericalash, evil predator on decent peoples?"

Where does it end, Mgmax? How about when our government allows people in other countries to take responsibility for their own choices, make their own decisions about the form of government they choose to live under and make their own decisions about who they want to lead them, without the US interfering and manipulating?

At what point will the US government stop infantalizing the people of other countries by controlling them through installing puppet leaders who capitulate to US demands? At what point will the mainstream media fairly, ethically and objectively report on world affairs, applying the same standards to countries that are not client states of the US to that they do to those that are?

You really, really need to educate yourself about the role the US has played, and continues to play, in controlling and manipulating the affairs of other countries. Try expanding your political horizons beyond what's fed to you at the troughs of Fox News and Time. Because you're talking out your ass here, and you're either being willfully ignorant or you really are that much of a misinformed sheep.

Oh, and "Chomksyian drama?" Please. Try reading some Chomsky, you might actually learn something.

comment #112

Mgmax says ...

"At what point will the US government stop infantalizing the people of other countries by controlling them through installing puppet leaders who capitulate to US demands?"

Name three who are in office right now. (Remember, Musharraf resigned last week.)

Or are you, and other Chomskyites, still fighting the last Cold War?

comment #113

Kim Voynar says ...

Mgmax said:

""At what point will the US government stop infantalizing the people of other countries by controlling them through installing puppet leaders who capitulate to US demands?"

Name three who are in office right now. (Remember, Musharraf resigned last week.)

Or are you, and other Chomskyites, still fighting the last Cold War?"

Antonio Saca (El salvador), Shimon Perez/Ehud Olmert (Israel -- though not for much longer in the case of Olmert), Alan Garcia (Peru), and to a somewhat lesser extent, Mikheil Saakashvili (Georgia).

Are we still fighting the Cold War? Look at the way the mainstream media has put the spin on the Georgia-Russia conflict. Of course, there's no longer the big Commie threat of the USSR anymore, but that doesn't stop our government from using red fear to justify supporting what they want to support.

And when they run out of Communists to spin fear around, well, that's okay. Now they have the Islamic terrorists and Bush's War! On! Terror! to justify their military spending.

Of course, we created much of that nasty little Middle East situation ourselves, back when we were fighting the Communists, but it's convenient for them to forget that when they're spending billions of dollars fighting a war we shouldn't have been in to begin with.