Obeisance Before God

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How is a reasonably intelligent person supposed to bridge the gap between Religulous (Lionsgate, 10.3), the Bill Maher-Larry Charles doc that portrays religions as a source of endless worldwide idiocy, ignorance and acrimony (a view I personally embrace), and the spectacle of today's civil forum discussion (5 to 7 pm) at the Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, California, between John McCain, Barack Obama and pastor Rick Warren?

The answer is to put aside the miraculous dream of a world without religions and settle into the idea that Obama could (a) diminish the idea among some evangelicals that he is a Manchurian Candidate Muslim anti-christ, and (b) that, being by all statements and appearances a more sincere and devout Christian than McCain, Obama could manage to siphon off enough evangelical votes to help alter the final tally in certain swing states.

Warren "is an anti-abortion Southern Baptist who is nonetheless part of a shift away from the religious right's strict focus on abortion and marriage," one summary states. "The environment, poverty and education have also become pressing concerns, especially for younger evangelicals.

"Warren is best known for building Saddleback Church into a 23,000-member megachurch in Lake Forest, Calif., and for writing the multimillion-selling book The Purpose-Driven Life.

"But he and his wife, Kay, are also leading advocates for HIV/AIDS victims worldwide. They have invested enormous resources in their PEACE Plan, now under way in Rwanda, which aims to combat corruption, illiteracy and other social problems through church partnerships with government and business.

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Posted by Jeffrey Wells on August 16, 2008 at 10:57 AM

comment #1

C-PhreekII says ...

Can we assume in your usual shoot-from-the-lip manner, you are actually talking about organized religion and not religion as it relates to spiritual beliefs? Because to dismiss and belittle all faiths is no different than the small-minded, brainwashed flocks of extreme believers ranting about their own ideas of bogeymen.

Posted by C-PhreekII at August 16, 2008 11:43 AM

comment #2

George Prager says ...

Right on C-PhreekII!!! Stickin' it to THE MAN!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by George Prager at August 16, 2008 12:00 PM

comment #3

George Prager says ...

Hopefully, McCain will suppress his strange urge to quote Chairman Mao.

Posted by George Prager at August 16, 2008 12:02 PM

comment #4

JHRussell says ...

Political debate should remain outside the realm of church and religion. I don't like this one bit.

I get sick of the interjection of the candidates' "faith" and all of that bullshit into the campaigns - not sure when all of that started, but it may have been with Jimmy Carter and his "lust" problem...it was a big part of GWB's campaign following the spectacle of Bill Clinton, and although I liked and voted for W, I did not like this aspect of his campaign...

Posted by JHRussell at August 16, 2008 12:17 PM

comment #5

markj says ...

Wouldn't it be cool if Obama stood up and said "Religion is the human response to being alive and having to die"? I'd vote for a guy with balls and common sense.

Posted by markj at August 16, 2008 12:31 PM

comment #6

GonePostal says ...

markj, he'd lose the election because the vast majority of Democrats, who are also religious, would be offended and insulted. Obama has made his faith a key part of who he is. While it would make the atheists happy, he'd be going against what he himself claims to believe and what his target voters believe. Ballsy, yes, but political suicide and quite the opposite of political common sense. Which makes it a completely stupid idea and I'd like to think Obama is smarter than that.

Posted by GonePostal at August 16, 2008 12:38 PM

comment #7

GonePostal says ...

And Jeff, isn't it a GOOD thing that they're talking about religion in a serious and civil manner? Isn't that the best thing they could do?

Posted by GonePostal at August 16, 2008 12:44 PM

comment #8

Chapman Carruthers says ...

>>>They have invested enormous resources in their PEACE Plan, now under way in Rwanda, which aims to combat corruption, illiteracy and other social problems through church partnerships with government and business.

Good thing this isn't 1995. The child-bearing portion of the 500,000 women that were raped during the Rwandan genocide might have something to say about his anti-abortion stance.

Oh, and while I'm a big fan of unsupported proclamations (e.g. Rick Warren is an ass face), I usually shy away from really big one's unless I have some sort of factual support:

"If youâ€™ve got a problem thatâ€™s growing at a rapid rate, then you need a solution that will grow even more rapidly. For
instance, HIV/AIDS is growing at an incredibly fast rate in the world. Yet thank God, the Church is outgrowing the disease..."

Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 16, 2008 12:46 PM

comment #9

George Prager says ...

I think the "faith" thing began with Billy Graham, especially when Richard Nixon used him as a prop. After Jimmy, "faith" really took off when Republicans used people like Jerry Fallwell to get votes.
"Religion is advantageous to the rich, it keeps people in line."
--William S. Burroughs

Posted by George Prager at August 16, 2008 12:51 PM

comment #10

Chapman Carruthers says ...

Civil? Sure.

Disobedient? Come on.

Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 16, 2008 12:55 PM

comment #11

redmond says ...

I'm disgusted by the whole event because what it boils down to is John McCain, Barack Obama and Rick Warren stroking each other off.

Do you think either candidate would agree to this without pre-approval of questions? Hell no. Would Rick Warren pass on a huge public spectacle putting him into Billy Graham territory by demanding he be allowed to throw anything but softballs? Hell no.

That said, the only person who will come out of this pretty is Obama. The man can comfortably describe his faith where former Goldwater Republican John McCain, like a child forced to eat his vegetables, will stumble his way through his new found love of the Evangelical right: "I, uh, love Jesus, I suppose and, uh, where am I? Holy crap, a Negro!"

Posted by redmond at August 16, 2008 1:14 PM

comment #12

Mgmax says ...

I like that "but" in the sentence.

Warren is a Christian pastor BUT he also helps the poor and sick.

Because normally all the hospitals in Africa are built by the Ethical Humanist Society.

Posted by Mgmax at August 16, 2008 7:08 PM

comment #13

PerfectTommy says ...

How does one bridge the gap between believing Christianity is a source of endless worldwide idiocy, ignorance and acrimony and supporting Barah Obama, a man who choose to follow the Christian faith and looks to the Christian Scripures as a source of purpose and ethics?

I don't believe one can, with any intellectual honesty. Not that that stops a lot of folks.

Posted by PerfectTommy at August 16, 2008 10:19 PM

comment #14

Mr. Gittes says ...

Wells,

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/17/opinion/17rich.html?hp

Incendiary.

Posted by Mr. Gittes at August 16, 2008 11:52 PM

comment #15

Terry McCarty says ...

For what it's worth, RELIGULOUS is already playing in Southern California; it's getting an out-of-town tryout in conservative Claremont at the Laemmle fiveplex (afternoon shows only). Assuming this is a way for Maher/Charles to figure out how much controversy can be manufactured in the six weeks before the official release.

Here's a link to Laemmle's site and theatre information for Claremont: http://laemmle.com/viewtheatre.php?thid=17

Posted by Terry McCarty at August 17, 2008 1:33 AM

comment #16

cobhome says ...

I find the notion that a non religious society would somehow make everything all right to be utter nonsense and in no way supported by history. Seriously - how about Stalin's Soviet Union??? The problem aint religion - it is people - their lust for power, greed, fear envy which is the problem.

I do however strongly agree that the founding fathers got it right - religion has no place in civil society and I do think the laws around non profit status should be enforced -

Posted by cobhome at August 17, 2008 4:44 PM

comment #17

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comment #18