Posted by Teacher's Pets at August 25, 2008 11:49 AM
comment #5
Mgmax says ...
Actually, you know, I take that back.
I'm glad his wife has had to face the tough, often ugly choices that health care in the real world will present. We will need a reality check like that when the blank checkbook gets into the Democrats' hands.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 11:50 AM
comment #6
moviesquad says ...
Pretty funny stuff. Unfortunately, coming from a guy whose main economic plan is to take money from Exxon to pay Grannie's heating bill doesn't leave me feeling any more secure about the future.
Posted by moviesquad at August 25, 2008 11:51 AM
comment #7
Mgmax says ...
Oh, and don't even bring up Bush. You'll get no defense of his profligacy from me.
Mgmax,
hardheaded liberal against compassionately careless conservatives
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 11:52 AM
comment #8
4th grade army says ...
That's how you hit back. Nice work, Obama Team.
Posted by 4th grade army at August 25, 2008 11:56 AM
comment #9
Mjs says ...
Somehow I knew there would be at least a couple of idiotic MGMAX comments on here. Just spin, or change the subject, Maxie pad.
Posted by Mjs at August 25, 2008 11:58 AM
comment #10
Chapman Carruthers says ...
I'm (not glad) (he) has had to face the tough, often ugly choices that (war) in the real world will present. We will need a reality check like that (if) the blank checkbook gets (back) into the (Republicans)' hands.
My body shivers at the thought of the potential staggering costs of healthcare. Too bad we don't have any examples to follow. Not England. Not Switzerland. Not Canada. Nor Japan, Singapore, or France. I say we abandon all hope and continue building the military industrial complex. I mean, after all, we're going to die, anyway. Why not take some people with us before we go.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 12:01 PM
comment #11
corey3rd says ...
McCain's hug on Bush looks like they just got married in Boston by Mitt Romney. That is one sensual embrace. Is John giving W a little ass tug on that grip? Maybe they should just show that photo and play the score to Mama Mia!
Posted by corey3rd at August 25, 2008 12:04 PM
comment #12
Teacher's Pets says ...
It's not that we're going to die, Chapman, it's that a guy who's been dead for two millenia will fly down from heaven and scoop up all of us believers so that we'll be out of harm's way when he fights the devil.
Duh.
Posted by Teacher's Pets at August 25, 2008 12:05 PM
comment #13
Mgmax says ...
Yeah, that's exactly the reality-based thoughtfulness I was hoping for.
As I said, Chapman old chap, you'll get no defense of Bush spending from me.
Mgmax,
shameless Bush shill
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 12:09 PM
comment #14
Chapman Carruthers says ...
John McCain is somehow involved in your response. I just can't decide if he's the "guy who's been dead for two millenia" or the one he's coming back to fight.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 12:10 PM
comment #15
Teacher's Pets says ...
Chapman: Ha!
Mgmax: Could you defend Reagan's or Bush the First's spending for me, please?
Posted by Teacher's Pets at August 25, 2008 12:13 PM
comment #16
Walter Sobchak says ...
Obama is AWESOME! (and a real looker, too!)
Posted by Walter Sobchak at August 25, 2008 12:16 PM
comment #17
spoiled says ...
"a guy whose main economic plan is to take money from Exxon to pay Grannie's heating bill doesn't leave me feeling any more secure about the future."
Especially after 8 years of a guy whose main economic plan was to take money from Grannie to pay for Enron's heating bill.
Posted by spoiled at August 25, 2008 12:20 PM
comment #18
Chapman Carruthers says ...
I think the Bushians implemented the cryptic code of initials to make it difficult to discuss their individual idiocies. Let's clarify it some.
W. Bush is 'Bush.'
H.W. Bush is 'The Cherry Patch.'
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 12:28 PM
comment #19
Mgmax says ...
"Mgmax: Could you defend Reagan's or Bush the First's spending for me, please?"
Sure, but one question. What sort of defense do you think two of the three longest economic expansions in our history require, precisely?
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 12:30 PM
comment #20
T. S. Idiot says ...
Never thought I'd say this, but I can't wait for the Oscar campaign to heat up.
Posted by T. S. Idiot at August 25, 2008 12:37 PM
comment #21
MilkMan says ...
Logic of the Rich: If I am doing fine, then everyone is doing fine. If I am making money, and you are not, then that is your problem, and if the laws that are made for my benefit only benefit me, then again, that is your problem. All progress is good, even if it destroys communities and families. In other words, GET OUT OF THE WAY.
Max: We're in the middle of an economic expansion? What do you have to back up such an asinine declaration? Do you mean to tell me that you're such a shill that you can't even admit that maybe, just maybe, this country, economically, isn't in the greatest shape right now? That the United States may be headed for bankruptcy? Of course, if that does happen, I'm sure you'll blame it on Obama, even it if does happen in February of next year/
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 12:54 PM
comment #22
BurmaShave says ...
Sorry to DZ, but I feel it's tangentially relevant:
For some reason with a good picture and all that Danish crap removed it plays much better to me, even Langella.
Posted by BurmaShave at August 25, 2008 12:56 PM
comment #23
dp4m says ...
Milk -- just an FYI, but I think Mgmax was talking about economic expansion under Reagan and H.W Bush (not Dubya). And I don't think he was kidding about not attempting to defend Dubya's economic policies at all (though I may be wrong). I believe he is, in fact, conservative as opposed to what GW Bush calls "conservative" and is not really... (OTOH, I loved your Logic of the Rich! :D)
Posted by dp4m at August 25, 2008 1:01 PM
comment #24
Chapman Carruthers says ...
Well, enough defense to explain that escalating red line between the years of 1980 and 1992. If you don't use up your entire 2000 word limit, feel free to justify the red line between 2000 and 2008.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 1:03 PM
comment #25
televisiontears says ...
From my unpublished guide book, "101 Helpful Hints on Keeping Your Sanity Until November":
#36: Whenever a friend or colleague tells you "Barack Obama is a different kind of politician", smile and nod politely. On the way home, stop by your local liquor store and purchase a fifth of Maker's Mark.
Posted by televisiontears at August 25, 2008 1:04 PM
comment #26
televisiontears says ...
From my unpublished guide book, "101 Helpful Hints on Keeping Your Sanity Until November":
#36: Whenever a friend or colleague tells you "Barack Obama is a different kind of politician", smile and nod politely. On the way home, stop by your local liquor store and purchase a fifth of Maker's Mark.
Posted by televisiontears at August 25, 2008 1:04 PM
comment #27
televisiontears says ...
Well that comment was obviously cut off. Probably for the better, since it was about to get desperate and potentially violent.
And for the love of god, what in the holy fuck is this? I'm dying inside a little more each day.
Posted by televisiontears at August 25, 2008 1:09 PM
comment #28
AbeGoldfarb says ...
The ad is almost poisonously funny. A rarity, and the finest ad either campaign has done.
By the by, Sobchak? Two things.
One, the character of Walter Sobchak was a wicked parody of warmongering, ignorant conservatism.
Two, do you have any actual shit on Obama, or is your main line of attack something like, "YEAH!! YEAH!! LIB'RULS THINK HE'S COOL!! WHAT A FUCKIN' DOUCHE!!" The whole "Obama is an empty celebrity" line is hopelessly over. His positions on nearly every policy question there is are available all over the place. If you want to keep saying he's all puff and no stuff, be my guest. But it's just bullshit. And do you really think that if Obama made ads as insidiously stupid and racist as McCain's that us stupid hippies would blindly support it? Of course not. Do you actually HAVE an argument for McCain as a president? On policy, he's a blurry rorschach test and proud of his "rootsy simplicity" (read: tell the whites they'll get robbed by the Socialist Antichrist darkie). If it's a character referendum, Obama wins hands down as well. Apologies for his lack of time in a prison camp, but a lack of time fucking around on a wife with cancer, divorcing her for the richest chick to come by and then funding his campaign with her inheritance is also a consideration. Anyway, as you were.
"YOU IDIOTS THINK HE'S REALLY AWESOME!! OBAMA FER JEEEEEESUS!! DUUUUUUHHHHRRRR HUR HUR!!"
Posted by AbeGoldfarb at August 25, 2008 1:17 PM
comment #29
Teacher's Pets says ...
"Sure, but one question. What sort of defense do you think two of the three longest economic expansions in our history require, precisely?"
I love how often Mgmax says "Sure" when asked to explain something, then changes the subject/makes a joke/etc. instead of actually explaining it. Not that it happens all the time, but it makes us silly lefties feel a little better when it does.
Posted by Teacher's Pets at August 25, 2008 1:24 PM
comment #30
MilkMan says ...
I agree with you Television.
Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss.
I have no illusions about politicians.
Pretty much all the same, with varying shades of slimeyness.
Obama has already been co-opted, and I understand, that's how it works.
I am neither a Donkey nor an Elephant.
I don't expect anything to change over the next four years.
The economy is going to keep on sliding down the hill like a Malibu mudslide, we're still going to be in Iraq, and people are still going to be in denial, pre-occupying themselves with trivia.
I've come to accept this about America, and I actually find it quite beautiful in it's own way, being alive for the decline.
What gets me riled up is people who insist on telling me that everything is okay, and will continue to be okay, as long as we keep killing foreigners, because the foreigners need to be free, and the only way we can MAKE them be free is by forcing them, with the end of a machine gun, to ACT free, because that's what they want, they just don't know it yet.
They also don't know that McDonald's and Stabucks and Suburbs are the living end of human history, where three hundred years of modernism has brought us.
Capitalsm as Religion, the Law of God, a Natural Force.
Sorry. Not buying it.
If the key tenet of modernism is unceasing progress, then how come the one thing the champions of progress refuse to change is their economic philosophy, when it obviously only works for a small percentage of people?
Because it's those very people who are in charge of progress who stand to gain the most by keeping everything status quo.
They have themselves in a bind, and it's funny to watch them try and wriggle out of it, because the knot is only getting tighter.
If history teaches us anything it's that history doesn't teach us anything, and that history, a system beyond human comprehension, simply doesn't give a shit about the plans and dreams of men.
People like Mgmax and Walter Sobchak remind me of terminal cancer patients who insist that there is nothing wrong with them, as long as they keep ingesting their laetrile.
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 1:24 PM
comment #31
dinther says ...
Not to dump on Mgmax, since he's the whipping boy of choice around here, but his logic perfectly exhibits the lazy, ignore-the-details, half-truthed pseudo-reality upon which the Republican "ideology" is based.
Their signature rhetorical ploy is the one Mgmax trots out here: Republicans believe that if you give Bill Gates $100, and you give a homeless man nothing, you've increased wealth by an average of $50.
That's what's happened in our country under Bush. Under Bush, real incomes for the top 1 percent (i.e., individuals making more than $376K) increased by 11 percent from 2002 through 2006. By contrast, real incomes for the bottom 99 percent increased a paltry one percent. Yes, one percent.
Another way of putting it: 73 percent of all of the income "growth" in this country over that time frame was taken in by people making more than $376K (which works out to 741,000 families/households). The other 147 million families in the country? Eh, you're on your own.
Now, call me crazy, but I'm willing to bet that mgmax, josh, indeed, and the other intellectual titans that spend their days posting on HE don't make more than 376K a year. Just a hunch. But nonetheless, that doesn't stop them from regurgitating Republican pablum about "growth" and how Republicans' economic plan is good for the country.
Posted by dinther at August 25, 2008 1:26 PM
comment #32
Howlingman says ...
That settles it. I'm voting for MilkMan.
Posted by Howlingman at August 25, 2008 1:30 PM
comment #33
televisiontears says ...
"If history teaches us anything it's that history doesn't teach us anything"
Great post, MilkMan.
Posted by televisiontears at August 25, 2008 1:35 PM
comment #34
Mgmax says ...
"If the key tenet of modernism is unceasing progress, then how come the one thing the champions of progress refuse to change is their economic philosophy, when it obviously only works for a small percentage of people?"
It obviously only works for a small percentage of people.
Yes, that's right, modernity has screwed over most of humanity, compared to how they lived before modernity.
Sanitation, refrigeration, industrialization, vaccination, communication, transportation-- all it's done is make you worse off than your German or Irish or black or Mexican ancestors who came over here 50 or 100 or 150 or 200 years ago. You are worse off than Ebenezer Milkman scraping a living out of the soil of North Dakota. Your girlfriend or sister is worse off than his wife, Elizabeth Milkman, sewing the one new item of clothing she'll have this year. Your children will be worse off than Jabez and Sarah Milkman, their children, one of whom will be carried off by whooping cough, the other of whom will have a single room in the house where she's a servant.
That's right, modernity has worked for nobody but me, Silas J. Mgmaxocrat, in my mansion on the hill.
And I'm the one accused of intellectual laziness. You don't even know what you don't know.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:05 PM
comment #35
Mgmax says ...
One clarification, the rest of this would take a semester of economics (with some Durkheim thrown in to explain why people hate government in fairly good times more than in bad times) to deal with, and frankly, you're not worth it because I can't imagine getting a good faith hearing here:
"Max: We're in the middle of an economic expansion? What do you have to back up such an asinine declaration?"
I was actually referring to the ones in the 80s and 90s, both of which expansions (even the Clinton one) have at least some roots in Reagan's policies. I wrongly took it for granted that people would remember when the last two boom periods were...
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:11 PM
comment #36
Chapman Carruthers says ...
Maximillian is a glass half-full type. Look at the thing's I've given you!! You have air conditioning. And paper to wipe your ass! Your daughter won't die form henta virus this year (which means I can put rat meat in her hamburger). And, oh, the minimum wage! The wiminimu wage is higher now than it was when I was busy raping Sarah Milkman while Mr Milkman slaved for sixteen-hours a day in my factory.
See, I'm more of the glass half-empty type. I believe in a thing called evolution. It's sort of complicaed. I'll explain the basics because the rest of this would take a semester of being beaten over the head with your knawed off tibia. It baically says that people are supposed to progress. Physically, spiritually, communally. It's because of this that I actually like to believe that we can do better than what we're doing now. But that's just me.
Now think back, dig deep into that semester-long study in economics and explain to me how your economic boom of the 1980s isn't going to lead to my, as well as many other commenters, economic bust of the 2010s.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 2:29 PM
comment #37
MilkMan says ...
No, you're right Max, I don't know what I don't know.
And there's a lot I don't know.
Problem with you is that you don't even know that there is a lot you don't know.
Because you know everything.
And apparently, to you, everything works just fine, because it works just fine for you.
And as long as you're okay, how dare I, or anybody else, not be okay too.
Sounds like you've got a nice, cushy life going for you.
You've got your vaccinations, and your garbage disposal, and you can talk to your mom on your cell phone, and take a plane to Disneyworld (except I don't know how much longer taking a plane is going to be available to those of us who also can't afford a house, but hey, TOO FUCKING BAD FOR ME, huh?)
My grandfather lived in a sewer, so at least I should show a little gratitude to Henry Ford, right?
I mean, what kind of presumption you have, you know?
How do you know how my, or anybody's ancestors lived a hundred years ago?
What, they were cretins, sub-human mongoloids who couldn't read or wipe themselves?
Dude, your elitisim and pomposity comes ringing through, clear as a bell.
Yes, Max, two hundred years ago, EVERYONE was not nearly as smart as you, or as healthy, or as happy with life.
They were all a bunch of miserable pigs.
And then, because of pastuerized milk and the Model T, everyone began to stand upright and speak in something other than grunts and squeals.
And there you have it, in a nutshell:
EVERYTHING USED TO BE SHIT. NOW IT'S FINE. SO SHUT UP. AND DON'T COMPLAIN. GO WATCH AMERICAN IDOL. BUY SOMETHING.
Did you always have this much contempt for humanity?
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 2:31 PM
comment #38
Mgmax says ...
"Did you always have this much contempt for humanity?"
No, it seems to have coincided with the popularization of the Internet.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:33 PM
comment #39
Mgmax says ...
Chapman, how you got an anti-progressive orientation on my part out of a defense of modernity (not modernism; that's something else) is pretty astonishing, just at the moment.
Suffice it to say that I think that progress tends to happen in societies which are prosperous enough to be able to afford it. Evidently you imagine anarchistically that if we just smash all the looms, we'll be free. Yeah, until we starve, and are invaded and taken over by Visigoths, or something.
Oh, but there I go bringing up capitalism and defense, the two worst things ever to happen to humanity.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:37 PM
comment #40
MilkMan says ...
Hey, Max, if you hate most of the people who come here, if some of us aren't worth it, then why do you come here? Why don't you go and swap eugenics theories and Ralph Reed anecdotes with people more your kind? Or is Jeff Fortuny your hero?
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 2:45 PM
comment #41
Mgmax says ...
Who's Jeff Fortuny?
And eugenics, in fact, was a Progressive preoccupation.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:55 PM
comment #42
MilkMan says ...
"...a Progressive preoccupation."
Huh.
Anybody else care to take the baton? I have to go finish my can of dill pickle pringles and print off some more pictures of Molly Shea.
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 2:58 PM
comment #43
Richardson says ...
In Max's defense, I would like to say that, unlike Walter, he is always willing to state what he does believe, rather than hiding behind simply mocking other people's beliefs.
However, he always states what he believes, and then mocks everybody who disagrees as stock, cliched liberals, refuses to engage in any sort of conversation, and then accuses people of not acting in "good faith".
So, sometimes, Walter's way of deflection is more honest and straightforward.
Posted by Richardson at August 25, 2008 3:00 PM
comment #44
Mgmax says ...
Richardson, I will grant some truth in that to this extent, that upon being faced with several feet of responses from half a dozen indignant folks, I tend to respond briefly to the outliers making the most outlandish claims (such as that modernity has not worked for most people), and not acknowledge those (such as yourself) who have reasoned arguments with merit to them.
Nevertheless, I would certainly argue that I get the "Why don't you just go back to watching your Faux news you sheeple and take your orders from [insert rightwing television figure I've barely heard of] as usual!" type response far more than I dismiss others that way. Perhaps I've grown rather harsh, tired of hearing how I am a baby-bloodsucking killer for believing in, oh, America having a foreign policy, or that the highest level of homeownership in history is not a sign that homeownership is impossible today, or whatever. It sometimes happens, sparring 8 to 1 or whatever it usually is around here, and especially on a day when one's mainstream opinions are met with snarls of "Why don't you go somewhere else?" My apologies, I will turn the other cheek, like our savior told us to. By whom, of course, I mean Jeff Fortuny, or possibly Cunningham (never did find out who he was-- Richie?).
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 3:08 PM
comment #45
Chapman Carruthers says ...
I disagree with Walter. On everything. But, at least, he's entertaining.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 3:08 PM
comment #46
bents75 says ...
"upon being faced with several feet of responses from half a dozen indignant folks..."
To put it as Fidel Castro recently did to describe a Taikwondo competitor who kicked an Olympic ref in the face...these people, and the rest of America, are and should be, 'rightfully indignant.'
We should all be so lucky as to have the opportunity to vent our frustration by kicking someone in the face.
Posted by bents75 at August 25, 2008 3:19 PM
comment #47
MilkMan says ...
Okay, Max.
We get it.
We get your point.
Everything is great.
God bless America and Jesus Christ.
Everyone can own a home if they want, if only they had that can do spirit, if only they weren't lazy and sitting on the computer all day, if only they took advantage of what this great Christian nation has to offer, and just played the fucking game already.
Now that you have so effortlessly teased out your point, seriously, as a favor to me, can you really, seriously, go back to watching Fox News and praying for the death of the hundreds of millions who can't get with the program, or at least, at the very least, post a comment that is humorous and not dripping with venom for the mass of people who aren't living the American Dream like you are, in your gilded country where everything is affordable, where freedom and prosperity reign? Don't you have a favorite Chuck Norris movie you'd care to rhapsodize about, like Invasion U.S.A.? And do you consider that a neo-realist horror movie, one of the great works of art to come out of the last golden age of America?
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 3:22 PM
comment #48
Mgmax says ...
"seriously, as a favor to me, can you really, seriously, go back to watching Fox News and praying for the death of the hundreds of millions who can't get with the program, or at least, at the very least, post a comment that is humorous and not dripping with venom"
Please, tell me you're being ironic, and didn't just post that without seeing what's funny about it.
"Don't you have a favorite Chuck Norris movie you'd care to rhapsodize about, like Invasion U.S.A.?"
Well, holy fuck, that really encourages me to write about movies, when you clearly have never read one word I've said on that subject, to stereotype me that way. Here's a little clue, search this site for "Mgmax" and "Ozu" or "Lubitsch" or "The Big Country" or "Barthelmess" or "Borzage" or any number of things. It's safe to say that as this site has sunk into the Kossite muck, I have commented more about classic cinema on those increasingly rare occasions that it comes up than just about anyone left here.
Honestly, do you get the point about lack of good faith yet?
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 3:28 PM
comment #49
CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...
Like all dumbfuck lawyers and pundits, Mgmax obviously grasps the letter of the law while missing the spirit.
Yes, of course, on a surface level things are undoubtedly "better"...is anyone denying this?
However, this cushier lifestyle can lead to a sickness of the soul, and a general lack of ambition spread widely among this country, certainly, if not many of the other 1st-world countries.
How many people really feel like they are making a difference in the world, anymore? Or better yet, how many feel they are even given the opportunity to do so?
Posted by CitizenKanedforChewingGum at August 25, 2008 3:42 PM
comment #50
MilkMan says ...
Holy shit, am I the only one who doesn't remember what Mgmax has written on this site? Don't I know who he is? Don't I know what kind of taste this man has?
You' are truly self-obsessed. I don't even remember what I wrote on this site last week. I mean, are you joking? "Never read one word I've said on that subject." No, I haven't, Vincent Canby.
And what's all this blather about good faith? I don't know you. You're just a bunch of words. So am I.
And your name dropping doesn't change my mind about your one bit, either. Ozu, Lubitsch, Borzage.
Get in line.
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 3:44 PM
comment #51
CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...
By the way, I'd fucking vote for Milkman in a heartbeat. That son of a bitch speaks MY language.
Posted by CitizenKanedforChewingGum at August 25, 2008 3:54 PM
comment #52
Chapman Carruthers says ...
Six examples that showcase your exquisite cinematic sensibilities, and one website to summarize the viewpoints expressed by everyone besides yourself on this website. Classy.
Milkmans got a point. Who are you? My best guess is somewhere between Alfred Molina in Boogie Nights and Don McKellar in Waydowntown.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 3:58 PM
comment #53
MilkMan says ...
Oh, and if I can drone on just a little bit longer, Max, let me ask you one last question:
If you are such a believer in progress, in all the wonderful things that have transpired in the wake of modernity, then how come you're so opposed to people who want to change the status quo? I mean, isn't that the point of progress? Out with the old, in with the new? So why the resistance to people who think that the system is broken and that it needs to be fixed? Why are you so adamant is communicating that everything is fine, everything is great?
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 4:01 PM
comment #54
Walter Sobchak says ...
AbeGoldfarb wrote...
"By the by, Sobchak? Two things.
One, the character of Walter Sobchak was a wicked parody of warmongering, ignorant conservatism.
Two, do you have any actual shit on Obama, or is your main line of attack something like, "YEAH!! YEAH!! LIB'RULS THINK HE'S COOL!! WHAT A FUCKIN' DOUCHE!!" The whole "Obama is an empty celebrity" line is hopelessly over. His positions on nearly every policy question there is are available all over the place. If you want to keep saying he's all puff and no stuff, be my guest. But it's just bullshit. And do you really think that if Obama made ads as insidiously stupid and racist as McCain's that us stupid hippies would blindly support it? Of course not. Do you actually HAVE an argument for McCain as a president? On policy, he's a blurry rorschach test and proud of his "rootsy simplicity" (read: tell the whites they'll get robbed by the Socialist Antichrist darkie). If it's a character referendum, Obama wins hands down as well. Apologies for his lack of time in a prison camp, but a lack of time fucking around on a wife with cancer, divorcing her for the richest chick to come by and then funding his campaign with her inheritance is also a consideration. Anyway, as you were.
"YOU IDIOTS THINK HE'S REALLY AWESOME!! OBAMA FER JEEEEEESUS!! DUUUUUUHHHHRRRR HUR HUR!!""
My GOODNESS, Abe... All of that for little ol' me?
Posted by Walter Sobchak at August 25, 2008 4:35 PM
comment #55
Walter Sobchak says ...
Richardson says...
"In Max's defense, I would like to say that, unlike Walter, he is always willing to state what he does believe, rather than hiding behind simply mocking other people's beliefs."
I don't do that, you pinko, paisley-sucking, giant-puppet-wielding, Zinn-reading communist.
Posted by Walter Sobchak at August 25, 2008 4:40 PM
comment #56
MDOC says ...
It's amazing to see the knives coming out for Mgmax. The guy always brings facts, a level of civility, and the ability to be critical of his side to the proceedings. If you are going to go for his jugular you may have to step back and ask yourself if you are simply incapable of political discussion. Many are.
CitizenKane... how many people felt like they were making a difference to the world in 1850, working in a factory their entire lives? How many people feel like they are making a difference to the world in China right now? Drive past a hospital, you will be passing about 400 people that go to bed every night feeling that they made a difference. There are a million ways for any average person to feel they make a difference. For starters, this need to make a difference explains the entire green movement and the existence of charity. I disagree with your negative perspective.
MilkMan, I am glad that although you are negative about the modern world in general, you believe that an Obama presidency will be a good change of the status quo. I'm not as certain, shoot me.
Posted by MDOC at August 25, 2008 4:48 PM
comment #57
Indeed says ...
As someone who's job it is to study this stuff it's easy to say yes, the country's economy is in the shitter. No, it is not going to get better soon. The only real way to fix it would be to let it crash and start fresh, but we all know thats not an option. So for now, well issue stimulus checks and bail out financial companies to prevent the bubble from bursting for another year or two. As long as our exports are as high as they are and consumers like Jeff continue to wait in line for iPhones things will keep going.
The USA is the worlds largest emerging market economy.
No, Obama wouldnt be able to fix this. Both he and McCain would continue to make things worse.
Posted by Indeed at August 25, 2008 4:56 PM
comment #58
AbeGoldfarb says ...
Yeah, even as a near-Socialist lefty, I wouldn't jump on MGMax. He's okay by me, even if we don't see eye to eye.
Sobchak, meanwhile, gleefully illustrates my point as if he's somehow subverting it.
Posted by AbeGoldfarb at August 25, 2008 5:31 PM
comment #59
Walter Sobchak says ...
Aren't I clever?
Posted by Walter Sobchak at August 25, 2008 6:42 PM
comment #60
D.Z. says ...
Mgmax: "At least his wife understands the economics of health care and how to make a hospital more profitable."
Yes, because profits should always factor into saving lives.
"I'm glad his wife has had to face the tough, often ugly choices that health care in the real world will present. "
They don't seem ugly in Europe.
moviesquad: "Unfortunately, coming from a guy whose main economic plan is to take money from Exxon to pay Grannie's heating bill doesn't leave me feeling any more secure about the future."
It leaves me more secure than cutting off their social security and forcing them to pay higher rates....
"What sort of defense do you think two of the three longest economic expansions in our history require, precisely?"
They weren't long, as there were two recessions in-between, but keep pretending otherwise.
"Sanitation, refrigeration, industrialization, vaccination, communication, transportation-- all it's done is make you worse off than your German or Irish or black or Mexican ancestors who came over here 50 or 100 or 150 or 200 years ago. You are worse off than Ebenezer Milkman scraping a living out of the soil of North Dakota."
Well, my mouth and stomach were nearly worse off from that ice cream I ate which had some kind of coil in it...
Posted by D.Z. at August 25, 2008 7:54 PM
comment #61
Indeed says ...
D.Z.: "They weren't long, as there were two recessions in-between, but keep pretending otherwise."
Uh, youre wrong (even though you will never admit it). The last expansion was 6 years, the recession before that was 8 months. The expansion before that was 7 years, and the recession before that was 12-14 months tops.
So, yes...they were two of the largest expansions in history.
Posted by Indeed at August 25, 2008 8:03 PM
comment #62
D.Z. says ...
Indeed: "Uh, youre wrong (even though you will never admit it). The last expansion was 6 years, the recession before that was 8 months."
Well, yes, if you exclude the stock slides and the manufacturing plant closings, I guess you can call that an expansion.
"The expansion before that was 7 years, and the recession before that was 12-14 months tops."
To me, an "expansion" would be based on real industrial growth and not just shady land speculation. But that's just me.
Posted by D.Z. at August 25, 2008 10:15 PM
comment #63
MilkMan says ...
Mgmax: Hey, how are you?
Indeed: Good. What are you doing?
Mgmax: I've been on the computer all day long arguing with these people and they're being really mean and they're ganging up on me.
Indeed: What site are you at?
Mgmax: hollywood-elsewhere.
Indeed: I'm going to leave here right now. Stay in the thread. Dont leave that thread. I'm going there right now.
Mgmax: You say it better than I do.
Indeed: What post are in you in?
Mgmax: The one for the Obama commercial.
Indeed: Now you're thinking.
Mgmax: I'm in this for good. I'm taking a stand.
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 10:50 PM
comment #64
CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...
MDOC,
I see you entirely missed my point, which was was simply that throughout history, change is happening all the time, whether others want it to happen or not. Folks like Max seem to take offense to anyone who has issues with the way the world is working (or not working), but the truth of the matter is, it's more often than not the malcontents and pissed-off of the world that make any real-world progression possible in the first place.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
I disagree with your perspective that people that work in a hospital automatically sleep better at night knowing they're making a difference. It's simply a matter of personality. Some doctors will lose 10 patients in a day and remember the one they saved. Some doctors will save 10 patients a day and remember the one they lost. So it goes.
Charities and green movements are fine, but honestly I believe they're a bit nullified due to the fact that they're a subconscious effort to make up for the harm we're doing every day with pollution, emissions, obesity, gas guzzling, and just all-around wastefulness and aimless lifestyles.
Then again, I support Obama and ironically do think he CAN make a change (or at the very least can point us around and turn us in the right direction), so it looks like we have pretty much have nothing in common...
Posted by CitizenKanedforChewingGum at August 25, 2008 11:30 PM
comment #65
MilkMan says ...
Wow, everyone is really into speeches right now.
Maybe Ted Kennedy was very inspiring tonight.
I'm sure he's in a very serene place right now.
He should enjoy it whiles it lasts, because his final hours are going to be spent like Leslie Nielsen in Creepshow.
The last thing teddy is going to see before lights out is a cocktail dress covered in sea weed.
Ted Kennedy's last words: I can hold my breath a long time!
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 11:58 PM
comment #66
Indeed says ...
D.Z.: "Well, yes, if you exclude the stock slides and the manufacturing plant closings, I guess you can call that an expansion."
The performance of the stock market has little to do with expansions or recessions. During 7 out of the last 10 recessions, the stock market increased.
Posted by Indeed at August 26, 2008 4:26 AM
comment #67
MDOC says ...
Hey MilkMan,
It looks like we found something we agree on.
Posted by MDOC at August 26, 2008 1:08 PM
comment #68
D.Z. says ...
"The performance of the stock market has little to do with expansions or recessions. During 7 out of the last 10 recessions, the stock market increased."
If they weren't connected, why would there be recessions in the first place?
Posted by D.Z. at August 26, 2008 8:22 PM
comment #69
BurmaShave says ...
D.Z. says ...
"The performance of the stock market has little to do with expansions or recessions. During 7 out of the last 10 recessions, the stock market increased."
If they weren't connected, why would there be recessions in the first place?
I'm just going to have to pull a Nature Boy and go Wooooooooo! That's the dumbest thing you've ever said. You love... lamp?
Posted by BurmaShave at August 26, 2008 9:44 PM
comment #70
Indeed says ...
D.Z.: "If they weren't connected, why would there be recessions in the first place?"
Wow. I gotta echo BurmaShave and....wow...that just boggles my mind.
If a friend asked me to represent them in court I would have no shame in turning them down. Im smart enough to know that I know dick about the law and how to win a case.
The same attitude should apply to you and economics. Theres no shame in admitting you dont know how it works.
Posted by Indeed at August 27, 2008 5:48 AM
comment #71
D.Z. says ...
Indeed: Well, I certainly know that the economics you tout as strong is really unstable. As for my previous comment, what I meant was that, based on historical precedent, stock slides of a severe nature tend to precede recessions. So I'm not sure how there is no cause-and-effect, unless you assume that recessions are just a "natural" part of a business cycle; and that can only be the case when the cycle is able to correct itself.
comment #1
Edward says ...
I saw this on C-SPAN this morning. Of course I'm prejudiced, but this is so much more clever than the horrible ads McC is running.
Posted by Edward at August 25, 2008 11:41 AM
comment #2
Mgmax says ...
A devastating attack when you compare McCain's cluelessness to Obama's record of... um... spending an Annenberg grant.
At least his wife understands the economics of health care and how to make a hospital more profitable.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/politics/obama/1122691,CST-NWS-hosp23.article
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 11:45 AM
comment #3
Walter Sobchak says ...
That was a GREAT ad because it was for Obama.
Posted by Walter Sobchak at August 25, 2008 11:48 AM
comment #4
Teacher's Pets says ...
Hey, Wells, check out this amateur production: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tihd3W-YaSc
Posted by Teacher's Pets at August 25, 2008 11:49 AM
comment #5
Mgmax says ...
Actually, you know, I take that back.
I'm glad his wife has had to face the tough, often ugly choices that health care in the real world will present. We will need a reality check like that when the blank checkbook gets into the Democrats' hands.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 11:50 AM
comment #6
moviesquad says ...
Pretty funny stuff. Unfortunately, coming from a guy whose main economic plan is to take money from Exxon to pay Grannie's heating bill doesn't leave me feeling any more secure about the future.
Posted by moviesquad at August 25, 2008 11:51 AM
comment #7
Mgmax says ...
Oh, and don't even bring up Bush. You'll get no defense of his profligacy from me.
Mgmax,
hardheaded liberal against compassionately careless conservatives
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 11:52 AM
comment #8
4th grade army says ...
That's how you hit back. Nice work, Obama Team.
Posted by 4th grade army at August 25, 2008 11:56 AM
comment #9
Mjs says ...
Somehow I knew there would be at least a couple of idiotic MGMAX comments on here. Just spin, or change the subject, Maxie pad.
Posted by Mjs at August 25, 2008 11:58 AM
comment #10
Chapman Carruthers says ...
I'm (not glad) (he) has had to face the tough, often ugly choices that (war) in the real world will present. We will need a reality check like that (if) the blank checkbook gets (back) into the (Republicans)' hands.
My body shivers at the thought of the potential staggering costs of healthcare. Too bad we don't have any examples to follow. Not England. Not Switzerland. Not Canada. Nor Japan, Singapore, or France. I say we abandon all hope and continue building the military industrial complex. I mean, after all, we're going to die, anyway. Why not take some people with us before we go.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 12:01 PM
comment #11
corey3rd says ...
McCain's hug on Bush looks like they just got married in Boston by Mitt Romney. That is one sensual embrace. Is John giving W a little ass tug on that grip? Maybe they should just show that photo and play the score to Mama Mia!
Posted by corey3rd at August 25, 2008 12:04 PM
comment #12
Teacher's Pets says ...
It's not that we're going to die, Chapman, it's that a guy who's been dead for two millenia will fly down from heaven and scoop up all of us believers so that we'll be out of harm's way when he fights the devil.
Duh.
Posted by Teacher's Pets at August 25, 2008 12:05 PM
comment #13
Mgmax says ...
Yeah, that's exactly the reality-based thoughtfulness I was hoping for.
As I said, Chapman old chap, you'll get no defense of Bush spending from me.
Mgmax,
shameless Bush shill
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 12:09 PM
comment #14
Chapman Carruthers says ...
John McCain is somehow involved in your response. I just can't decide if he's the "guy who's been dead for two millenia" or the one he's coming back to fight.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 12:10 PM
comment #15
Teacher's Pets says ...
Chapman: Ha!
Mgmax: Could you defend Reagan's or Bush the First's spending for me, please?
Posted by Teacher's Pets at August 25, 2008 12:13 PM
comment #16
Walter Sobchak says ...
Obama is AWESOME! (and a real looker, too!)
Posted by Walter Sobchak at August 25, 2008 12:16 PM
comment #17
spoiled says ...
"a guy whose main economic plan is to take money from Exxon to pay Grannie's heating bill doesn't leave me feeling any more secure about the future."
Especially after 8 years of a guy whose main economic plan was to take money from Grannie to pay for Enron's heating bill.
Posted by spoiled at August 25, 2008 12:20 PM
comment #18
Chapman Carruthers says ...
I think the Bushians implemented the cryptic code of initials to make it difficult to discuss their individual idiocies. Let's clarify it some.
W. Bush is 'Bush.'
H.W. Bush is 'The Cherry Patch.'
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 12:28 PM
comment #19
Mgmax says ...
"Mgmax: Could you defend Reagan's or Bush the First's spending for me, please?"
Sure, but one question. What sort of defense do you think two of the three longest economic expansions in our history require, precisely?
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 12:30 PM
comment #20
T. S. Idiot says ...
Never thought I'd say this, but I can't wait for the Oscar campaign to heat up.
Posted by T. S. Idiot at August 25, 2008 12:37 PM
comment #21
MilkMan says ...
Logic of the Rich: If I am doing fine, then everyone is doing fine. If I am making money, and you are not, then that is your problem, and if the laws that are made for my benefit only benefit me, then again, that is your problem. All progress is good, even if it destroys communities and families. In other words, GET OUT OF THE WAY.
Max: We're in the middle of an economic expansion? What do you have to back up such an asinine declaration? Do you mean to tell me that you're such a shill that you can't even admit that maybe, just maybe, this country, economically, isn't in the greatest shape right now? That the United States may be headed for bankruptcy? Of course, if that does happen, I'm sure you'll blame it on Obama, even it if does happen in February of next year/
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 12:54 PM
comment #22
BurmaShave says ...
Sorry to DZ, but I feel it's tangentially relevant:
http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809928835/trailer
For some reason with a good picture and all that Danish crap removed it plays much better to me, even Langella.
Posted by BurmaShave at August 25, 2008 12:56 PM
comment #23
dp4m says ...
Milk -- just an FYI, but I think Mgmax was talking about economic expansion under Reagan and H.W Bush (not Dubya). And I don't think he was kidding about not attempting to defend Dubya's economic policies at all (though I may be wrong). I believe he is, in fact, conservative as opposed to what GW Bush calls "conservative" and is not really... (OTOH, I loved your Logic of the Rich! :D)
Posted by dp4m at August 25, 2008 1:01 PM
comment #24
Chapman Carruthers says ...
Well, enough defense to explain that escalating red line between the years of 1980 and 1992. If you don't use up your entire 2000 word limit, feel free to justify the red line between 2000 and 2008.
http://www.cedarcomm.com/%7Estevelm1/usdebt.png
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 1:03 PM
comment #25
televisiontears says ...
From my unpublished guide book, "101 Helpful Hints on Keeping Your Sanity Until November":
#36: Whenever a friend or colleague tells you "Barack Obama is a different kind of politician", smile and nod politely. On the way home, stop by your local liquor store and purchase a fifth of Maker's Mark.
Posted by televisiontears at August 25, 2008 1:04 PM
comment #26
televisiontears says ...
From my unpublished guide book, "101 Helpful Hints on Keeping Your Sanity Until November":
#36: Whenever a friend or colleague tells you "Barack Obama is a different kind of politician", smile and nod politely. On the way home, stop by your local liquor store and purchase a fifth of Maker's Mark.
Posted by televisiontears at August 25, 2008 1:04 PM
comment #27
televisiontears says ...
Well that comment was obviously cut off. Probably for the better, since it was about to get desperate and potentially violent.
And for the love of god, what in the holy fuck is this? I'm dying inside a little more each day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6BLKV7L8OU
Posted by televisiontears at August 25, 2008 1:09 PM
comment #28
AbeGoldfarb says ...
The ad is almost poisonously funny. A rarity, and the finest ad either campaign has done.
By the by, Sobchak? Two things.
One, the character of Walter Sobchak was a wicked parody of warmongering, ignorant conservatism.
Two, do you have any actual shit on Obama, or is your main line of attack something like, "YEAH!! YEAH!! LIB'RULS THINK HE'S COOL!! WHAT A FUCKIN' DOUCHE!!" The whole "Obama is an empty celebrity" line is hopelessly over. His positions on nearly every policy question there is are available all over the place. If you want to keep saying he's all puff and no stuff, be my guest. But it's just bullshit. And do you really think that if Obama made ads as insidiously stupid and racist as McCain's that us stupid hippies would blindly support it? Of course not. Do you actually HAVE an argument for McCain as a president? On policy, he's a blurry rorschach test and proud of his "rootsy simplicity" (read: tell the whites they'll get robbed by the Socialist Antichrist darkie). If it's a character referendum, Obama wins hands down as well. Apologies for his lack of time in a prison camp, but a lack of time fucking around on a wife with cancer, divorcing her for the richest chick to come by and then funding his campaign with her inheritance is also a consideration. Anyway, as you were.
"YOU IDIOTS THINK HE'S REALLY AWESOME!! OBAMA FER JEEEEEESUS!! DUUUUUUHHHHRRRR HUR HUR!!"
Posted by AbeGoldfarb at August 25, 2008 1:17 PM
comment #29
Teacher's Pets says ...
"Sure, but one question. What sort of defense do you think two of the three longest economic expansions in our history require, precisely?"
I love how often Mgmax says "Sure" when asked to explain something, then changes the subject/makes a joke/etc. instead of actually explaining it. Not that it happens all the time, but it makes us silly lefties feel a little better when it does.
Posted by Teacher's Pets at August 25, 2008 1:24 PM
comment #30
MilkMan says ...
I agree with you Television.
Say hello to the new boss, same as the old boss.
I have no illusions about politicians.
Pretty much all the same, with varying shades of slimeyness.
Obama has already been co-opted, and I understand, that's how it works.
I am neither a Donkey nor an Elephant.
I don't expect anything to change over the next four years.
The economy is going to keep on sliding down the hill like a Malibu mudslide, we're still going to be in Iraq, and people are still going to be in denial, pre-occupying themselves with trivia.
I've come to accept this about America, and I actually find it quite beautiful in it's own way, being alive for the decline.
What gets me riled up is people who insist on telling me that everything is okay, and will continue to be okay, as long as we keep killing foreigners, because the foreigners need to be free, and the only way we can MAKE them be free is by forcing them, with the end of a machine gun, to ACT free, because that's what they want, they just don't know it yet.
They also don't know that McDonald's and Stabucks and Suburbs are the living end of human history, where three hundred years of modernism has brought us.
Capitalsm as Religion, the Law of God, a Natural Force.
Sorry. Not buying it.
If the key tenet of modernism is unceasing progress, then how come the one thing the champions of progress refuse to change is their economic philosophy, when it obviously only works for a small percentage of people?
Because it's those very people who are in charge of progress who stand to gain the most by keeping everything status quo.
They have themselves in a bind, and it's funny to watch them try and wriggle out of it, because the knot is only getting tighter.
If history teaches us anything it's that history doesn't teach us anything, and that history, a system beyond human comprehension, simply doesn't give a shit about the plans and dreams of men.
People like Mgmax and Walter Sobchak remind me of terminal cancer patients who insist that there is nothing wrong with them, as long as they keep ingesting their laetrile.
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 1:24 PM
comment #31
dinther says ...
Not to dump on Mgmax, since he's the whipping boy of choice around here, but his logic perfectly exhibits the lazy, ignore-the-details, half-truthed pseudo-reality upon which the Republican "ideology" is based.
Their signature rhetorical ploy is the one Mgmax trots out here: Republicans believe that if you give Bill Gates $100, and you give a homeless man nothing, you've increased wealth by an average of $50.
That's what's happened in our country under Bush. Under Bush, real incomes for the top 1 percent (i.e., individuals making more than $376K) increased by 11 percent from 2002 through 2006. By contrast, real incomes for the bottom 99 percent increased a paltry one percent. Yes, one percent.
Another way of putting it: 73 percent of all of the income "growth" in this country over that time frame was taken in by people making more than $376K (which works out to 741,000 families/households). The other 147 million families in the country? Eh, you're on your own.
Now, call me crazy, but I'm willing to bet that mgmax, josh, indeed, and the other intellectual titans that spend their days posting on HE don't make more than 376K a year. Just a hunch. But nonetheless, that doesn't stop them from regurgitating Republican pablum about "growth" and how Republicans' economic plan is good for the country.
Posted by dinther at August 25, 2008 1:26 PM
comment #32
Howlingman says ...
That settles it. I'm voting for MilkMan.
Posted by Howlingman at August 25, 2008 1:30 PM
comment #33
televisiontears says ...
"If history teaches us anything it's that history doesn't teach us anything"
Great post, MilkMan.
Posted by televisiontears at August 25, 2008 1:35 PM
comment #34
Mgmax says ...
"If the key tenet of modernism is unceasing progress, then how come the one thing the champions of progress refuse to change is their economic philosophy, when it obviously only works for a small percentage of people?"
It obviously only works for a small percentage of people.
Yes, that's right, modernity has screwed over most of humanity, compared to how they lived before modernity.
Sanitation, refrigeration, industrialization, vaccination, communication, transportation-- all it's done is make you worse off than your German or Irish or black or Mexican ancestors who came over here 50 or 100 or 150 or 200 years ago. You are worse off than Ebenezer Milkman scraping a living out of the soil of North Dakota. Your girlfriend or sister is worse off than his wife, Elizabeth Milkman, sewing the one new item of clothing she'll have this year. Your children will be worse off than Jabez and Sarah Milkman, their children, one of whom will be carried off by whooping cough, the other of whom will have a single room in the house where she's a servant.
That's right, modernity has worked for nobody but me, Silas J. Mgmaxocrat, in my mansion on the hill.
And I'm the one accused of intellectual laziness. You don't even know what you don't know.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:05 PM
comment #35
Mgmax says ...
One clarification, the rest of this would take a semester of economics (with some Durkheim thrown in to explain why people hate government in fairly good times more than in bad times) to deal with, and frankly, you're not worth it because I can't imagine getting a good faith hearing here:
"Max: We're in the middle of an economic expansion? What do you have to back up such an asinine declaration?"
I was actually referring to the ones in the 80s and 90s, both of which expansions (even the Clinton one) have at least some roots in Reagan's policies. I wrongly took it for granted that people would remember when the last two boom periods were...
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:11 PM
comment #36
Chapman Carruthers says ...
Maximillian is a glass half-full type. Look at the thing's I've given you!! You have air conditioning. And paper to wipe your ass! Your daughter won't die form henta virus this year (which means I can put rat meat in her hamburger). And, oh, the minimum wage! The wiminimu wage is higher now than it was when I was busy raping Sarah Milkman while Mr Milkman slaved for sixteen-hours a day in my factory.
See, I'm more of the glass half-empty type. I believe in a thing called evolution. It's sort of complicaed. I'll explain the basics because the rest of this would take a semester of being beaten over the head with your knawed off tibia. It baically says that people are supposed to progress. Physically, spiritually, communally. It's because of this that I actually like to believe that we can do better than what we're doing now. But that's just me.
Now think back, dig deep into that semester-long study in economics and explain to me how your economic boom of the 1980s isn't going to lead to my, as well as many other commenters, economic bust of the 2010s.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 2:29 PM
comment #37
MilkMan says ...
No, you're right Max, I don't know what I don't know.
And there's a lot I don't know.
Problem with you is that you don't even know that there is a lot you don't know.
Because you know everything.
And apparently, to you, everything works just fine, because it works just fine for you.
And as long as you're okay, how dare I, or anybody else, not be okay too.
Sounds like you've got a nice, cushy life going for you.
You've got your vaccinations, and your garbage disposal, and you can talk to your mom on your cell phone, and take a plane to Disneyworld (except I don't know how much longer taking a plane is going to be available to those of us who also can't afford a house, but hey, TOO FUCKING BAD FOR ME, huh?)
My grandfather lived in a sewer, so at least I should show a little gratitude to Henry Ford, right?
I mean, what kind of presumption you have, you know?
How do you know how my, or anybody's ancestors lived a hundred years ago?
What, they were cretins, sub-human mongoloids who couldn't read or wipe themselves?
Dude, your elitisim and pomposity comes ringing through, clear as a bell.
Yes, Max, two hundred years ago, EVERYONE was not nearly as smart as you, or as healthy, or as happy with life.
They were all a bunch of miserable pigs.
And then, because of pastuerized milk and the Model T, everyone began to stand upright and speak in something other than grunts and squeals.
And there you have it, in a nutshell:
EVERYTHING USED TO BE SHIT. NOW IT'S FINE. SO SHUT UP. AND DON'T COMPLAIN. GO WATCH AMERICAN IDOL. BUY SOMETHING.
Did you always have this much contempt for humanity?
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 2:31 PM
comment #38
Mgmax says ...
"Did you always have this much contempt for humanity?"
No, it seems to have coincided with the popularization of the Internet.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:33 PM
comment #39
Mgmax says ...
Chapman, how you got an anti-progressive orientation on my part out of a defense of modernity (not modernism; that's something else) is pretty astonishing, just at the moment.
Suffice it to say that I think that progress tends to happen in societies which are prosperous enough to be able to afford it. Evidently you imagine anarchistically that if we just smash all the looms, we'll be free. Yeah, until we starve, and are invaded and taken over by Visigoths, or something.
Oh, but there I go bringing up capitalism and defense, the two worst things ever to happen to humanity.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:37 PM
comment #40
MilkMan says ...
Hey, Max, if you hate most of the people who come here, if some of us aren't worth it, then why do you come here? Why don't you go and swap eugenics theories and Ralph Reed anecdotes with people more your kind? Or is Jeff Fortuny your hero?
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 2:45 PM
comment #41
Mgmax says ...
Who's Jeff Fortuny?
And eugenics, in fact, was a Progressive preoccupation.
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 2:55 PM
comment #42
MilkMan says ...
"...a Progressive preoccupation."
Huh.
Anybody else care to take the baton? I have to go finish my can of dill pickle pringles and print off some more pictures of Molly Shea.
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 2:58 PM
comment #43
Richardson says ...
In Max's defense, I would like to say that, unlike Walter, he is always willing to state what he does believe, rather than hiding behind simply mocking other people's beliefs.
However, he always states what he believes, and then mocks everybody who disagrees as stock, cliched liberals, refuses to engage in any sort of conversation, and then accuses people of not acting in "good faith".
So, sometimes, Walter's way of deflection is more honest and straightforward.
Posted by Richardson at August 25, 2008 3:00 PM
comment #44
Mgmax says ...
Richardson, I will grant some truth in that to this extent, that upon being faced with several feet of responses from half a dozen indignant folks, I tend to respond briefly to the outliers making the most outlandish claims (such as that modernity has not worked for most people), and not acknowledge those (such as yourself) who have reasoned arguments with merit to them.
Nevertheless, I would certainly argue that I get the "Why don't you just go back to watching your Faux news you sheeple and take your orders from [insert rightwing television figure I've barely heard of] as usual!" type response far more than I dismiss others that way. Perhaps I've grown rather harsh, tired of hearing how I am a baby-bloodsucking killer for believing in, oh, America having a foreign policy, or that the highest level of homeownership in history is not a sign that homeownership is impossible today, or whatever. It sometimes happens, sparring 8 to 1 or whatever it usually is around here, and especially on a day when one's mainstream opinions are met with snarls of "Why don't you go somewhere else?" My apologies, I will turn the other cheek, like our savior told us to. By whom, of course, I mean Jeff Fortuny, or possibly Cunningham (never did find out who he was-- Richie?).
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 3:08 PM
comment #45
Chapman Carruthers says ...
I disagree with Walter. On everything. But, at least, he's entertaining.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 3:08 PM
comment #46
bents75 says ...
"upon being faced with several feet of responses from half a dozen indignant folks..."
To put it as Fidel Castro recently did to describe a Taikwondo competitor who kicked an Olympic ref in the face...these people, and the rest of America, are and should be, 'rightfully indignant.'
We should all be so lucky as to have the opportunity to vent our frustration by kicking someone in the face.
Posted by bents75 at August 25, 2008 3:19 PM
comment #47
MilkMan says ...
Okay, Max.
We get it.
We get your point.
Everything is great.
God bless America and Jesus Christ.
Everyone can own a home if they want, if only they had that can do spirit, if only they weren't lazy and sitting on the computer all day, if only they took advantage of what this great Christian nation has to offer, and just played the fucking game already.
Now that you have so effortlessly teased out your point, seriously, as a favor to me, can you really, seriously, go back to watching Fox News and praying for the death of the hundreds of millions who can't get with the program, or at least, at the very least, post a comment that is humorous and not dripping with venom for the mass of people who aren't living the American Dream like you are, in your gilded country where everything is affordable, where freedom and prosperity reign? Don't you have a favorite Chuck Norris movie you'd care to rhapsodize about, like Invasion U.S.A.? And do you consider that a neo-realist horror movie, one of the great works of art to come out of the last golden age of America?
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 3:22 PM
comment #48
Mgmax says ...
"seriously, as a favor to me, can you really, seriously, go back to watching Fox News and praying for the death of the hundreds of millions who can't get with the program, or at least, at the very least, post a comment that is humorous and not dripping with venom"
Please, tell me you're being ironic, and didn't just post that without seeing what's funny about it.
"Don't you have a favorite Chuck Norris movie you'd care to rhapsodize about, like Invasion U.S.A.?"
Well, holy fuck, that really encourages me to write about movies, when you clearly have never read one word I've said on that subject, to stereotype me that way. Here's a little clue, search this site for "Mgmax" and "Ozu" or "Lubitsch" or "The Big Country" or "Barthelmess" or "Borzage" or any number of things. It's safe to say that as this site has sunk into the Kossite muck, I have commented more about classic cinema on those increasingly rare occasions that it comes up than just about anyone left here.
Honestly, do you get the point about lack of good faith yet?
Posted by Mgmax at August 25, 2008 3:28 PM
comment #49
CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...
Like all dumbfuck lawyers and pundits, Mgmax obviously grasps the letter of the law while missing the spirit.
Yes, of course, on a surface level things are undoubtedly "better"...is anyone denying this?
However, this cushier lifestyle can lead to a sickness of the soul, and a general lack of ambition spread widely among this country, certainly, if not many of the other 1st-world countries.
How many people really feel like they are making a difference in the world, anymore? Or better yet, how many feel they are even given the opportunity to do so?
Posted by CitizenKanedforChewingGum at August 25, 2008 3:42 PM
comment #50
MilkMan says ...
Holy shit, am I the only one who doesn't remember what Mgmax has written on this site? Don't I know who he is? Don't I know what kind of taste this man has?
You' are truly self-obsessed. I don't even remember what I wrote on this site last week. I mean, are you joking? "Never read one word I've said on that subject." No, I haven't, Vincent Canby.
And what's all this blather about good faith? I don't know you. You're just a bunch of words. So am I.
And your name dropping doesn't change my mind about your one bit, either. Ozu, Lubitsch, Borzage.
Get in line.
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 3:44 PM
comment #51
CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...
By the way, I'd fucking vote for Milkman in a heartbeat. That son of a bitch speaks MY language.
Posted by CitizenKanedforChewingGum at August 25, 2008 3:54 PM
comment #52
Chapman Carruthers says ...
Six examples that showcase your exquisite cinematic sensibilities, and one website to summarize the viewpoints expressed by everyone besides yourself on this website. Classy.
Milkmans got a point. Who are you? My best guess is somewhere between Alfred Molina in Boogie Nights and Don McKellar in Waydowntown.
Posted by Chapman Carruthers at August 25, 2008 3:58 PM
comment #53
MilkMan says ...
Oh, and if I can drone on just a little bit longer, Max, let me ask you one last question:
If you are such a believer in progress, in all the wonderful things that have transpired in the wake of modernity, then how come you're so opposed to people who want to change the status quo? I mean, isn't that the point of progress? Out with the old, in with the new? So why the resistance to people who think that the system is broken and that it needs to be fixed? Why are you so adamant is communicating that everything is fine, everything is great?
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 4:01 PM
comment #54
Walter Sobchak says ...
AbeGoldfarb wrote...
"By the by, Sobchak? Two things.
One, the character of Walter Sobchak was a wicked parody of warmongering, ignorant conservatism.
Two, do you have any actual shit on Obama, or is your main line of attack something like, "YEAH!! YEAH!! LIB'RULS THINK HE'S COOL!! WHAT A FUCKIN' DOUCHE!!" The whole "Obama is an empty celebrity" line is hopelessly over. His positions on nearly every policy question there is are available all over the place. If you want to keep saying he's all puff and no stuff, be my guest. But it's just bullshit. And do you really think that if Obama made ads as insidiously stupid and racist as McCain's that us stupid hippies would blindly support it? Of course not. Do you actually HAVE an argument for McCain as a president? On policy, he's a blurry rorschach test and proud of his "rootsy simplicity" (read: tell the whites they'll get robbed by the Socialist Antichrist darkie). If it's a character referendum, Obama wins hands down as well. Apologies for his lack of time in a prison camp, but a lack of time fucking around on a wife with cancer, divorcing her for the richest chick to come by and then funding his campaign with her inheritance is also a consideration. Anyway, as you were.
"YOU IDIOTS THINK HE'S REALLY AWESOME!! OBAMA FER JEEEEEESUS!! DUUUUUUHHHHRRRR HUR HUR!!""
My GOODNESS, Abe... All of that for little ol' me?
Posted by Walter Sobchak at August 25, 2008 4:35 PM
comment #55
Walter Sobchak says ...
Richardson says...
"In Max's defense, I would like to say that, unlike Walter, he is always willing to state what he does believe, rather than hiding behind simply mocking other people's beliefs."
I don't do that, you pinko, paisley-sucking, giant-puppet-wielding, Zinn-reading communist.
Posted by Walter Sobchak at August 25, 2008 4:40 PM
comment #56
MDOC says ...
It's amazing to see the knives coming out for Mgmax. The guy always brings facts, a level of civility, and the ability to be critical of his side to the proceedings. If you are going to go for his jugular you may have to step back and ask yourself if you are simply incapable of political discussion. Many are.
CitizenKane... how many people felt like they were making a difference to the world in 1850, working in a factory their entire lives? How many people feel like they are making a difference to the world in China right now? Drive past a hospital, you will be passing about 400 people that go to bed every night feeling that they made a difference. There are a million ways for any average person to feel they make a difference. For starters, this need to make a difference explains the entire green movement and the existence of charity. I disagree with your negative perspective.
MilkMan, I am glad that although you are negative about the modern world in general, you believe that an Obama presidency will be a good change of the status quo. I'm not as certain, shoot me.
Posted by MDOC at August 25, 2008 4:48 PM
comment #57
Indeed says ...
As someone who's job it is to study this stuff it's easy to say yes, the country's economy is in the shitter. No, it is not going to get better soon. The only real way to fix it would be to let it crash and start fresh, but we all know thats not an option. So for now, well issue stimulus checks and bail out financial companies to prevent the bubble from bursting for another year or two. As long as our exports are as high as they are and consumers like Jeff continue to wait in line for iPhones things will keep going.
The USA is the worlds largest emerging market economy.
No, Obama wouldnt be able to fix this. Both he and McCain would continue to make things worse.
Posted by Indeed at August 25, 2008 4:56 PM
comment #58
AbeGoldfarb says ...
Yeah, even as a near-Socialist lefty, I wouldn't jump on MGMax. He's okay by me, even if we don't see eye to eye.
Sobchak, meanwhile, gleefully illustrates my point as if he's somehow subverting it.
Posted by AbeGoldfarb at August 25, 2008 5:31 PM
comment #59
Walter Sobchak says ...
Aren't I clever?
Posted by Walter Sobchak at August 25, 2008 6:42 PM
comment #60
D.Z. says ...
Mgmax: "At least his wife understands the economics of health care and how to make a hospital more profitable."
Yes, because profits should always factor into saving lives.
"I'm glad his wife has had to face the tough, often ugly choices that health care in the real world will present. "
They don't seem ugly in Europe.
moviesquad: "Unfortunately, coming from a guy whose main economic plan is to take money from Exxon to pay Grannie's heating bill doesn't leave me feeling any more secure about the future."
It leaves me more secure than cutting off their social security and forcing them to pay higher rates....
"What sort of defense do you think two of the three longest economic expansions in our history require, precisely?"
They weren't long, as there were two recessions in-between, but keep pretending otherwise.
"Sanitation, refrigeration, industrialization, vaccination, communication, transportation-- all it's done is make you worse off than your German or Irish or black or Mexican ancestors who came over here 50 or 100 or 150 or 200 years ago. You are worse off than Ebenezer Milkman scraping a living out of the soil of North Dakota."
Well, my mouth and stomach were nearly worse off from that ice cream I ate which had some kind of coil in it...
Posted by D.Z. at August 25, 2008 7:54 PM
comment #61
Indeed says ...
D.Z.: "They weren't long, as there were two recessions in-between, but keep pretending otherwise."
Uh, youre wrong (even though you will never admit it). The last expansion was 6 years, the recession before that was 8 months. The expansion before that was 7 years, and the recession before that was 12-14 months tops.
So, yes...they were two of the largest expansions in history.
Posted by Indeed at August 25, 2008 8:03 PM
comment #62
D.Z. says ...
Indeed: "Uh, youre wrong (even though you will never admit it). The last expansion was 6 years, the recession before that was 8 months."
Well, yes, if you exclude the stock slides and the manufacturing plant closings, I guess you can call that an expansion.
"The expansion before that was 7 years, and the recession before that was 12-14 months tops."
To me, an "expansion" would be based on real industrial growth and not just shady land speculation. But that's just me.
Posted by D.Z. at August 25, 2008 10:15 PM
comment #63
MilkMan says ...
Mgmax: Hey, how are you?
Indeed: Good. What are you doing?
Mgmax: I've been on the computer all day long arguing with these people and they're being really mean and they're ganging up on me.
Indeed: What site are you at?
Mgmax: hollywood-elsewhere.
Indeed: I'm going to leave here right now. Stay in the thread. Dont leave that thread. I'm going there right now.
Mgmax: You say it better than I do.
Indeed: What post are in you in?
Mgmax: The one for the Obama commercial.
Indeed: Now you're thinking.
Mgmax: I'm in this for good. I'm taking a stand.
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 10:50 PM
comment #64
CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...
MDOC,
I see you entirely missed my point, which was was simply that throughout history, change is happening all the time, whether others want it to happen or not. Folks like Max seem to take offense to anyone who has issues with the way the world is working (or not working), but the truth of the matter is, it's more often than not the malcontents and pissed-off of the world that make any real-world progression possible in the first place.
The squeaky wheel gets the grease.
I disagree with your perspective that people that work in a hospital automatically sleep better at night knowing they're making a difference. It's simply a matter of personality. Some doctors will lose 10 patients in a day and remember the one they saved. Some doctors will save 10 patients a day and remember the one they lost. So it goes.
Charities and green movements are fine, but honestly I believe they're a bit nullified due to the fact that they're a subconscious effort to make up for the harm we're doing every day with pollution, emissions, obesity, gas guzzling, and just all-around wastefulness and aimless lifestyles.
Then again, I support Obama and ironically do think he CAN make a change (or at the very least can point us around and turn us in the right direction), so it looks like we have pretty much have nothing in common...
Posted by CitizenKanedforChewingGum at August 25, 2008 11:30 PM
comment #65
MilkMan says ...
Wow, everyone is really into speeches right now.
Maybe Ted Kennedy was very inspiring tonight.
I'm sure he's in a very serene place right now.
He should enjoy it whiles it lasts, because his final hours are going to be spent like Leslie Nielsen in Creepshow.
The last thing teddy is going to see before lights out is a cocktail dress covered in sea weed.
Ted Kennedy's last words: I can hold my breath a long time!
Posted by MilkMan at August 25, 2008 11:58 PM
comment #66
Indeed says ...
D.Z.: "Well, yes, if you exclude the stock slides and the manufacturing plant closings, I guess you can call that an expansion."
The performance of the stock market has little to do with expansions or recessions. During 7 out of the last 10 recessions, the stock market increased.
Posted by Indeed at August 26, 2008 4:26 AM
comment #67
MDOC says ...
Hey MilkMan,
It looks like we found something we agree on.
Posted by MDOC at August 26, 2008 1:08 PM
comment #68
D.Z. says ...
"The performance of the stock market has little to do with expansions or recessions. During 7 out of the last 10 recessions, the stock market increased."
If they weren't connected, why would there be recessions in the first place?
Posted by D.Z. at August 26, 2008 8:22 PM
comment #69
BurmaShave says ...
D.Z. says ...
"The performance of the stock market has little to do with expansions or recessions. During 7 out of the last 10 recessions, the stock market increased."
If they weren't connected, why would there be recessions in the first place?
I'm just going to have to pull a Nature Boy and go Wooooooooo! That's the dumbest thing you've ever said. You love... lamp?
Posted by BurmaShave at August 26, 2008 9:44 PM
comment #70
Indeed says ...
D.Z.: "If they weren't connected, why would there be recessions in the first place?"
Wow. I gotta echo BurmaShave and....wow...that just boggles my mind.
If a friend asked me to represent them in court I would have no shame in turning them down. Im smart enough to know that I know dick about the law and how to win a case.
The same attitude should apply to you and economics. Theres no shame in admitting you dont know how it works.
Posted by Indeed at August 27, 2008 5:48 AM
comment #71
D.Z. says ...
Indeed: Well, I certainly know that the economics you tout as strong is really unstable. As for my previous comment, what I meant was that, based on historical precedent, stock slides of a severe nature tend to precede recessions. So I'm not sure how there is no cause-and-effect, unless you assume that recessions are just a "natural" part of a business cycle; and that can only be the case when the cycle is able to correct itself.
Posted by D.Z. at August 27, 2008 8:00 PM