comment #1

Meegosh says ...

I can't speak for my fellow flyovers staters, but what pisses me off isn't that you claim their are racists that could screw Obama over. Its that you seem to just assume that we are all like that. You do realize that there are people in these states that are voting for Obama right? Mcain isn't going to get 100% of the vote.

And I also hope you realize that some of us may be voting for Mcain because we just think hes the better candidate, or are scared of an inexperienced candidate, or don't like the idea of universal healthcare. Those might not be great reasons, but they are legitimate ones. You are as bad as the racists that refuse to vote for Obama because he is black. They see all black people one way, you see all Mid west people the one way. It is the same thing.

Whats unfortunate in this mess is that if the stupid racists would actually look at the issues they would almost all vote for Obama because most of them are also stupid and poor, and Obama should win the stupid, poor, vote by a landslide.

comment #2

gruver1 says ...

Wells to Meegosh: Anyone who intends to vote for McCain because they just think he's the better candidate, or are scared of an inexperienced candidate, or don't like the idea of universal healthcare -- fine with me. Of course, most of the people I know believe that the kind of experience and gut instincts that McCain would bring to to the job would be nothing short of horrific. But if he's their guy for whatever reason, fine. As long as it's not a racial call.

comment #3

MartinBlank says ...

You may be reckoning without the "more than black" equation, which I name after the John Turturro character's statement in Do the Right Thing:

MOOKIE: Sounds funny to me. As much as you say nigger this and nigger that, all your favorite people are "niggers."

PINO: It's different. Magic, Eddie, Prince are not niggers, I mean, are not Black. I mean, they're Black but not really Black. They're more than Black. It's different.

Those who responded by saying that most blacks are lazy/irresponsible/whatever may also feel "Yeah, but Obama is black but not really black. He's more than black. It's different."

Hell, this is America. "Most" of any group are lazy/irresponsible/whatever.

comment #4

markj says ...

Meegosh - Do you seriously want Sarah Palin in the White House?

comment #5

iamwhoiam says ...

Duhh indeed. Racism is the only reason this race is so close. If Obama was white, this thing would be over by now. Shame on America.

comment #6

iamwhoiam says ...

Anyone who's against universal healthcare is a jerk.

comment #7

moviesquad says ...

I find it interesting that this is a poll of racist democrats.

comment #8

moviesquad says ...

Most telling quote from the article:

"Lots of Republicans harbor prejudices, too, but the survey found they weren't voting against Obama because of his race. Most Republicans wouldn't vote for any Democrat for president — white, black or brown. "

So, if Obama loses due to racism, it will be due to racism within the democratic party.

comment #9

D.Z. says ...

No one seems to question how many of those voters will actually have an impact after Ike. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26796366/

Meegosh: "And I also hope you realize that some of us may be voting for Mcain because we just think hes the better candidate,"

If he's really the better candidate, then how come everyone who normally wouldn't vote for him is only doing it now?

"or don't like the idea of universal healthcare."

You just prefer the idea of universal debt to HMOs?

"You are as bad as the racists that refuse to vote for Obama because he is black. They see all black people one way, you see all Mid west people the one way. It is the same thing."

No, it's not the same thing, since you can prove the attitudes of Mid West people through polls and statistics, as this article just showed, while the racists are just using stereotypes to prove their arguments against black people.

comment #10

lehigh says ...

the good news is this:

"Statistical models derived from the poll suggest that Obama's support would be as much as 6 percentage points higher if there were no white racial prejudice."

So, the polls we're seeing are correct (as polls go). He would be up by about 6 more points if it weren't for racism - the article suggests.

So that's something to feel good about when you wonder why he isn't up by 10, or why he's down by 3.

Two other things to note 1) today he's up 50-44 in the gallup tracking poll and 2) the black turnout in this election will be huge and may offset any racist effects. The black vote always goes to the dems, but the turnout of that demographic will be much, much bigger this year.

comment #11

D.Z. says ...

moviesquad: "So, if Obama loses due to racism, it will be due to racism within the democratic party."

Not exactly accurate. Given that they hate the people running the show, but they'd still vote McSame, they're clearly in denial here. Not to mention that they like covering up for people like George Allen and those "Aunt Obama" waffle dealers...[Oh, and they also voted for Bush, in spite of his attacks on McCain's baby and his visit to that college which banned interracial dating...]

comment #12

moviesquad says ...

D.Z, doublecheck that poll. If Obama loses, it will be due to democratic racists either not coming out to vote or voting for McCain instead.

comment #13

D.Z. says ...

moviesquad: "D.Z, doublecheck that poll. If Obama loses, it will be due to democratic racists either not coming out to vote or voting for McCain instead."

Well, if they vote for a guy who tried to block MLK day, then that says something about Republicans, too.

comment #14

SpinDozer says ...

'D.Z, doublecheck that poll. If Obama loses, it will be due to democratic racists either not coming out to vote or voting for McCain instead.'

Actually, the poll is about racism among democrats and independents...

comment #15

coxcable says ...

The racism issue is A FACT. I can say as a white guy from the deep south, almost every older white Democrat I know is voting GOP for the first time in their lives this year. Given the awful state of the union, it can be for one reason and one reason only. Pretty disgusting.

At stake is not the Blue State/ Red State balance... but the political balance this country was founded on. The idea of "out with the old, in with the new" that guided the constitution. If that collapses because of ignorant racism, the moral authority of our democracy is put into jeopardy. This could leave a fatal hole in public confidence -- one usually filled by tyranny. (see Germany 1930)

comment #16

Jimmycrackcorn says ...

I don't doubt for a second that there are lots of Democrats with racial prejudices who will either stay home or vote for McCain. Where Wells gets in trouble (and not just with conservative trolls--sorry, because I'm not one) is insisting that all these people are rubes in the dreaded small towns that blight this great land of ours. Is that anywhere in the poll? None of the stories I've seen about the survey have any kind of geographical or economic specificity. Does Wells really have a hard time imagining that there are at least some liberal-leaning, pro-Obama-voting white Democrats in small towns and in the heartland and in the South? Or that a lot of the Democrats who harbor racist views might be living in the big city? The people who are closest to urban crime are the ones who are going to try to assign blame for it first. I do notice how Wells puts the blame for these racial prejudices on the "lower middle class," as if to the actual lower class had a nobility that keeps them from the racism that afflicts the next rung up. If there is data in this survey that directly confirms your stereotypes of where these people live or how much money they make, Jeff, please include it. And if there isn't, maybe refrain from using it to assert that it proves your own prejudices true. I would hope we'd all have learned that across-the-board stereotyping rarely is accurate. It does a disservice to the "rubes" who have open minds and hearts, and gives too much of a break to the bitter urbanites who can be the most narrow haters of all.

comment #17

NotImpressedYet says ...

Wells wrote: "Anyone who intends to vote for McCain because they just think he's the better candidate, or are scared of an inexperienced candidate, or don't like the idea of universal healthcare -- fine with me."

Does anyone else have a hard time buying this? Or if it is true, I think Wells probably just doesn't believe that there's anyone who fits into this category. My takeaway from Well's political blogs is much more along the lines of "you don't agree with me then you're a racist idiot from Kentucky".

And not that I need to say it but I'm a committed Obama supporter from Chicago..

comment #18

SpinDozer says ...

Jimmycrack is correct. Lotta white college educated suburbanites in the middle/upper-middle class are racists and not all are republicans.

comment #19

Griff says ...

And the expected huge turn out of black voters. Those who are voting FOR Obama because he's (when convenient) black are what...members of his college fraternity?

(Brief pause while I put on my Troll outfit)

This is half your country on White Liberal Guilt: Two white scumbag thugs attack a disabled black man, drag him to his death. Liberals say "This proves America is still racist."

Four black thugs abduct, torture, rape, and kill two white kids. Liberals say: "SOUND OF SILENCE, nothing to see here, keep moving until we find more evidence of white racism somewhere else."

Jeff, D.Z., and all the rest of you folks I suspect are coming from a good place in your heart: this is the kind of Doubly Standard Procedure that makes a trolling ReLiberatian like myself scream in frustration.

If a white person does something vile, it's a sign of the deep-rooted racism in America.

If a person of color does something equally vile...well, we don't discuss that, it can't possibly be racist or a hate crime. Because, by definition, hate crimes are only performed by White People.

Racism comes, if you'll pardon the expression, in many colors. When that is honestly addressed by the Left, then perhaps we can have an honest dialogue in this country about race and it’s ultimate meaninglessness.

comment #20

D.Z. says ...

cox: "At stake is not the Blue State/ Red State balance... but the political balance this country was founded on."

Didn't we kind of establish there was never really a "balance" after the Civil War?

Jimmy: "Where Wells gets in trouble (and not just with conservative trolls--sorry, because I'm not one) is insisting that all these people are rubes in the dreaded small towns that blight this great land of ours."

I think it's only fair for Wells to make such an assertion after conservative chicken-hawks have called us cowards and terrorist enablers all this time.

"Does Wells really have a hard time imagining that there are at least some liberal-leaning, pro-Obama-voting white Democrats in small towns and in the heartland and in the South?"

They weren't enough to stop Bush from winning.

"Or that a lot of the Democrats who harbor racist views might be living in the big city? "

Perhaps, but they're not responsible for the Dems losing majorities.

Griff: "This is half your country on White Liberal Guilt: Two white scumbag thugs attack a disabled black man, drag him to his death. Liberals say "This proves America is still racist." Four black thugs abduct, torture, rape, and kill two white kids. Liberals say: "SOUND OF SILENCE, nothing to see here, keep moving until we find more evidence of white racism somewhere else."'

Well, what ends up being racist is that the white guys might get a short sentence, while the black guys might end up getting the chair. Not to mention that it's usually assumed that rape and abduction fit the "behavior" of black criminals, even though Scott Peterson can hardly be viewed as black. Nice try pretending we're the ones who are hypocrites, though.

"Racism comes, if you'll pardon the expression, in many colors. When that is honestly addressed by the Left, then perhaps we can have an honest dialogue in this country about race and it’s ultimate meaninglessness."

We have addressed the issue, and you just pretend it doesn't exist.

comment #21

Rod32303 says ...

GRIFF...Let's see...a person of color applies and interviews for a job, as does a white person. The person of color is hired. CONSERVATIVES SAY "OF COURSE he or she only got the job because of Affirmative Action. OF COURSE the white person was more qualified but screwed out of the position because of a quota system."

A white person applies applies for a job and is interviewed and then a person of color applies and is interviewed for the same position. The white candidate is hired. CONSERVATIVES SAY..."Cricket. Cricket. Chirp. Chirp." No noise? Because all is well with the world? OF COURSE the white person DESERVED the job over the person of color.

If a white person gets the job, all is right with the world. If the black person or person of color gets it...you get the point.

SO, racism DOES come in many colors (actually, prejudices and biases come in many colors, as to its definition, RACISM deals with having the POWER to oppress...not many people of color running corporations as CEO's, or running governments, or studios). When THAT is honestly addressed by the white, er, RIGHT, then perhaps we really CAN have an honest discussion.

comment #22

MovieBob says ...

DZ
"I think it's only fair for Wells to make such an assertion after conservative chicken-hawks have called us cowards and terrorist enablers all this time."

You DO realize that you're essentially using the Bush/Cheney torture/pre-emptive war defense (911 was a cheap-shot, so we get to make cheap shots of our own) here, right?

comment #23

D.Z. says ...

Bob: "You DO realize that you're essentially using the Bush/Cheney torture/pre-emptive war defense (911 was a cheap-shot, so we get to make cheap shots of our own)"

I'm not sure how you can equate my argument with the same mentality advocating torture or illegal warfare, unless you somehow think that criticizing people is the same thing as making shaky legal arguments.

comment #24

shanana says ...

I thought after segregation ended forty years ago, BAM, no more racism. All those people who vehemently opposed desegregation immediately saw the error of their ways, and immediately started practicing and teaching tolerance to their children. All the disenfranchised African-Americans forced to live in the poor segregated parts of the country, were moved to nice houses out in the suburbs, with good jobs, and healthcare. All the sub par schools in the segregated parts of town were torn down and new, elite schools were erected in there place. Everything was great in this country, until that white liberal guilt crept in.

Thanks to white liberal guilt, people now know that Barack Obama is half black(conveniently). Before white guilt, people only saw Barack's half white side. Before white guilt, nobody ever would remark how Barack's middle name was "Hussein," nor would they ever make shirts that said, "Osama or Obama?" or "Obama Bin Laden." Thanks to white guilt, Barack must constantly denounce the support of Louis Farrakhan and his former Pastor Rev. Wright, while John Mc
Cain, who is white (inconveniently), never has to denounce pastors and state senators that post on signs in front of their churches or on their webpages " Osama or Obama, what's the difference?" who just happen to be McCain supporters.

One can only dream of the day when liberal white guilt will finally be stamped out for good. If not for us, for our children.

comment #25

Griff says ...

D.Z., Rod, Shanana: only a fool or a knave would suggest racism does not exist.

Injustice exists as well.

Sexism exists, as well.

It's not limited to Whitey, however.

How much overt racism have you personally seen or experienced? Or is what you are talking about what you have read or heard?

Finally, no one has answered my question about Hate Crimes. When was the last time a person of color convicted of hate crimes for criminal behavior against the melalin impaired?

If any of us can stand a chance, we have to have principles. A principle applies to everyone, not just to "my" side, not just the group I represent.

Thus, D.Z., your point is spot on. I personally think Scott Petersen is a waste of good oxygen. But so are the four black thugs I mentioned. That's a matter of equal, principled justice.

Shanana, would you not accept that we have made strides from 40 years ago? There were, and still are, bigots and small-minded fools everywhere. I would suggest they are less and less.

I work in a large corporation. The executive VP, the number two guy, is black. My immediate supervisor is from Pakistan, what some people might have slurred as a WOG. We have Asian VPs, black, Italian. In my own department, I personally have hired one black guy, one hispanic, one asian, and my last hire was a white guy. My only consideration, and it is a selfish one, is who is the best for the job.

I have not hired a black temp, because his customer service was lousy. I have not hired a hispanic temp because the other workers (white, black, hispanic) felt he didn't measure up. I have not hired a white temp because his customer service was lousy.

But that's just me.

comment #26

shanana says ...

For five years I lived in South Dakota, I'm hispanic, my mother is from Mexico. Yeah, i felt racism, no I didn't read about, and it wasn't imagined. The locals called Native Americans prairie n***s, I was called a spick. I had friends whose parents didn't like me hanging out because of my ethnicity, and this is the "heartland." Of course there are good people out there who fight that stereotype, but mostly, they look the other way. And this didn't occur 40 years ago. I moved to New Mexico after that, went to Catholic High School, same difference. I was hanging out with these rich white kids, they started calling African Americans "n**s." I'm in a fight. These were rich, privileged Catholics talking shit in New Mexico - a state where Hispanics outnumber whites.

Back in the late 60's, there were militant African Americans who would drive around the city shooting white people. Of course there are racists on the other side. But ask yourself these questions: Which ethnicity in America has more hate groups? Which ethnicity has more open members of hate groups?

On this site, there were Republican posters who defended people like Cunningham by asking the rhetorical question, "What's wrong with saying a candidates middle name?"

So, laws are passed and oppression just stops? Your corporation isn't racist, so all businesses aren't racist? Your corporation isn't racist and it has nothing to do with laws which make them hire fairly? What about the point I made about education or the inherent poverty that has been forced onto minorities by the whites dating back to the end of slavery? Are the schools in Watts as good as the schools in Beverly Hills?

Right now, I live in San Francisco, the poorest, most crime-ridden neighborhoods are predominantly black neighborhoods that date back to segregation.

So please, don't tell me about progress we've made, when there is so much more to be done. This poll is proof of that.

comment #27

Rod32303 says ...

Those thugs you speak of deserve the cell as much as the next criminal. YOU are the one who brought up the whole "Whitey Injustice" thing, Griff. That whole White Liberal Guilt proposal you instigated.

As a man of color, I think we have made tremendous progress. I teach high school, and these kids, for the most part, are in a much better place than us. For many (most of the ones I teach anyway), they've all known each other and grown up together HOMOGENIZED for years, so I have great faith and hope for them.

I experience racism every time I ride an elevator and watch purses clutched or bodies tense. I love it when I am walking to my local convenience store and get called a "fuckin nigger!" from some good old boys in a truck. And yet...I don't allow those examples to define what I think about people in general.

Ours, not so much. Instead of denouncing and exacting the correct punishment towards a black person when they commit a crime, we get this kind of extra added bonus.

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php/black-gunman-murders-five-women-457734.html

comment #28

SpinDozer says ...

Thanks Rod. Excuse me, I'm gonna take a shower.

comment #29

D.Z. says ...

Griff: "How much overt racism have you personally seen or experienced? Or is what you are talking about what you have read or heard?"

I've seen a few people tag swastikas and N-words around here...

"When was the last time a person of color convicted of hate crimes for criminal behavior against the melalin impaired?"

When's the last time people who bombed black churches and lynched black people were convicted?

"Shanana, would you not accept that we have made strides from 40 years ago?"

We've made strides, but if prominent football and golf players-not to mention Senators running for President-can't be successful in their games without white people questioning their worth by their skin color, we still have a ways to go.

comment #30

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