comment #1

Monument says ...

Have you read The Reason for God by Dr. Timothy Keller? He's a Christian that I think you'd like, very intelligent, thoughtful and logical. Good book too, if you can get past the fact that it was written by a Presbyterian minister. Regardless of whether you accept the Christian angle, he presents a pretty good, cogent case for why there must be somebody up there holding it all together.

Here's a talk he gave at Google:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxup3OS5ZhQ

comment #2

Mark says ...

Does Maher only confront the wackos? Is there absolutely no voice to the rational believer in the whole movie? (I'm thinking about someone on par with the priest in You Can Count on Me.)

comment #3

qdpsteve says ...

IMHO taking religious education from Bill Maher makes about as much sense as taking political discourse instruction from Ann Coulter.

comment #4

Circumvrent says ...

I haven't seen the film, but isn't the tone of this thing less sarcasting/caustic than Maher's stand up? Maybe the logic was to have that film follow suit - downplay it in such a way that there's no jokiness/wink-wink to it.

I just can't believe that Larry Charles, who knew exactly how to shoot BORAT, didn't know what to do with this

comment #5

qdpsteve says ...

And I really would love to ask Wells, honestly, if he has ANY friends or respected business acquaintances who are conservative and/or religious.

comment #6

Rich S. says ...

Atheist's tombstone: "All dressed up and nowhere to go."

Quint's review over at AICN indicates that Maher does speak to some rational folks. If that's true, it makes me far more interested to see the film. Simply making fun of the nutjobs gets old after awhile.

comment #7

TL says ...

Does Maher only confront the wackos?

I doubt it. I like Maher, but he's clearly going for the low-hanging fruit. If wanted to make a serious inquiry, he'd spend time with serious thinkers, not just making pithy comments to fringe nutjobs. (If he has, I'll retract my comments.)

comment #8

Monument says ...

He does Steve, he's said so on more than one occasion.

comment #9

Monument says ...

I really not shilling for the guy I swear, but I was just re-watching that Keller talk at Google, he counters a lot of the arguments that Maher poses in Religulous.

I guess I just don't like Bill Maher, he's too smug and smarmy. I just think that the subject matter requires some degree of humility.

comment #10

John Cocktosten says ...

No one knows anything. The only reliable institution for finding out knowledge through the limited realm of our senses is the scientific method. You can feel both wonder and spirituality and still be a first-rate scientist.

Organized religion is like being marched in formation to watch a sunset.

comment #11

Redmond says ...

Jeff, if you're looking for a book that dismisses religion but touches on the spirituality of life, scope out Lewis Black' Me of Little Faith.

Personally, I felt it was just alright because of that approach, but it sounds like it'll be right up your alley.

In the meantime, everyone will find out how dangerous fervent religious ideology is when Sarah Palin becomes the VP then Pres. when McCain kicks the bucket. See you all during the run to the border.

comment #12

Devin Faraci says ...

Jeff, I found the shooting style interesting - Charles keeps a lot of shots of the crew in there, starts a lot of segments before everybod is mic'ed, etc. He's putting the filmmaking artifice out front, it feels like, contextualizing the conditions in which the interviews are filmed. he never lets you forget that this is a documentary fllm crew shooting, he keeps you slightly at a distance, like you're watching a debate in a theater.

Second, Maher DOES acknowledge the feeling of 'something bigger.' I don't know if you made it to the end of the film, but he completely says 'I do not know what created the universe or what happens when you die, I just think it's stupid for you to pretend like you do know.'

comment #13

MilkMan says ...

The reason Maher and Charles didn't interview any rational Christians is because there is no such thing, just as there are no rational Jews or rational Scientologists or rational Muslims.

Religious belief entails that you abandon all hopes at rationality and throw your lot in with the supernatural, with the mythic, with the absurd.

The only way human beings and going to become a Type 1 Civilization and survive ourselves is to give up the ghost and relagate religion to the dustbin of history.

Of course, this will never happen, which is why we are doomed to keep repeating the same mistakes over and over and over.

Religion is the cancer of humanity. The only thing one needs to believe in is that one is here and that there is life to live and that no answers will be forthcoming, that all those paradoxes and contradictions one has to wade through on a daily basis make up the fabric of reality, and are not problems to be solved.

Religion is for people who don't want to confront what is right in front of them, that death is imminent, that there is no rhyme of reason for anything, that the universe is simply amoral and indifferent to the suffering that man has created for himself.

I know all of this because I am fucking awesome and the rest of you are just a figment of my imagination. All of this was created just for me since I am special.

comment #14

DarthCorleone says ...

Mr. Wells >> I was trying to access some of your old archived posts from the last couple months, and there seems to be a problem with the pages. Just wanted to let you know and see if it could be fixed...

comment #15

lazespud says ...

"And two, Maher-the-rationalist doesn't once acknowledge the general feeling known to all humans and animals since the beginning of intelligent life that there's surely some kind of cosmic connectivity governing this and other worlds."

I haven't seen the film yet, but this strikes me as a kind of dumb argument against the film. I for one don't particularly share this "general feeling" and I can't help but think that were Maher to put something like this in the movie, it would have undercut everything else. Every critic (except, apparently, Jeff), would say, "Maher doesn't hate religion, he just hates all the other religions out there. But he clearly believes in some form of religion... you know, the cosmic interconnectedness stuff and all that."

Seriously Jeff, A) do you think Maher believes this? and B) would it have made it a stronger, or a weaker movie?

comment #16

Mark G. says ...

Live would me much easier on this planet if we skipped the God, prophet and so on part and agreed to just believe in the Ten Commandments...

comment #17

Mark G. says ...

I meant "Live would be...

comment #18

MathewM says ...

Bill Maher is a soulless creature. I remember seeing him live during a taping of P.I. years ago and not once did he connect to the audience. When he was doing his opening monologue it was if he was performing it in front of a mirror.

I'm mixed on religion. I do think it's a lot of hokum but there a lot of rational, intelligent minded religious people out there. Christianity has taken a bad rap because of the "Evangelicals" but the truth is that the Bible is filled with a lot of moral stories that are as relevant today as ever. Did Moses part the Red Sea? I don't think so. However that doesn't mean that we should just throw the whole Bible away as BS like Maher supposedly does.

comment #19

Ghost072 says ...

"Organized religion is like being marched in formation to watch a sunset."

Great line. Full disclosure: I will be stealing it and using it everywhere applicable. Thanks...

comment #20

Mark B says ...

"The reason Maher and Charles didn't interview any rational Christians is because there is no such thing, just as there are no rational Jews or rational Scientologists or rational Muslims."

I was considering writing an eloquent discourse to refute this comment, but then I suddenly realized my Christianity makes me inherently irrational, so it's probably best I keep my thoughts to myself and keep contributing to the "cancer of humanity."

Give me a break.

comment #21

MilkMan says ...

Good idea. Keep your Christianity to yourself. I've heard enough from you people. Go tell yourself what a great person you are and leave the rest of us alone.

comment #22

fattyhadaparty says ...

RELIGULOUS II: THE AGNOSTICATOR

comment #23

DarthCorleone says ...

Mark G. >> You might want to reread those Ten Commandments. Not only are at least a couple of them more than a bit antiquated (essentially equating a wife with "property," encouraging people to blindly honor parents even if they are abusive, etc.), but the first few of them are completely dependent on "God," so you really can't skip that part.

Also, I agree with lazespud's comment. I was going to pull the exact same quote and question it.

As for the first critique about endowing the film with a little more resonance, that makes sense to me.

comment #24

qdpsteve says ...

MilkMan: "Good idea. Keep your Christianity to yourself. I've heard enough from you people."

To recall/recycle a great quote from a lefty commenter at Marc Cooper's site, Milky, you must have really hated the 1950s-60s leaders of the Civil Rights Movement, then.

Also, are you aware that both Obama and McCain have publicly stated their support for expanding the federal government's utilization of church- and faith-based programs to help the less fortunate?

comment #25

MilkMan says ...

I am immune to christian propaganda qdsteve.

you can advertise your benevolence all day everyday and i reject it like a hot wet fart

your capacity for goodwill and charity is meager compared to your capacity for evil and repression

i know that somene has to pilot spaceship earth but you people have proved to be criminally negligent in your stewardship.

comment #26

qdpsteve says ...

Milky, thanks for proving yourself far too stupid and pigheaded to respond to a simple honest request for a real conversation about the issue at hand., i.e., the usefulness of religion.

comment #27

MilkMan says ...

you're welcome.

religion is useful like a pain reliever is useful

get a new drug, steve-o

there's plenty of them out there and they all work about the same, which is not for very long

your drug should be discontinued because one of the side effects is death for everyone but yourself

take your unearned sense of immortality and go straight to the afterlife

leave this life to those who want to be here

comment #28

qdpsteve says ...

Uh-huh. How much have you had to 'ingest' tonight, MM?

Whether there's anything beyond this life or not, I've no interest in going anywhere. Besides the fact that it's what I want to do anyway, another one of the best parts is there's nothing individuals such as yourself can do about it.

IMHO based on the overall tone and punctuation of your last couple posts, it sounds an awful lot to me like you're the one who wants to be somewhere else.

comment #29

MilkMan says ...

yeah i want to be in bed but my wife is so fucking huge i have no room to get comfortable

instead of sending money to starving children how about giving me enough to buy a queen size mattress

thats how you can improve the world, saint steve-o of the heartland

get me a tempur-pedic and i'll give myself to christ

comment #30

qdpsteve says ...

get me a tempur-pedic and i'll give myself to christ

MilkMan, sorry. Maybe these folks can help:

http://www.sitnsleep.com/home.asp

I coulda sworn I heard Larry Miller just the other day on Talk Radio KRLA: "Come on down and convert today and your mattress is FREEEEEEEEEEEE!!!"

:-)

comment #31

MilkMan says ...

nice change of tools,but I'm not the one who's going to give you what you need

you'll never take me alive

:^)

comment #32

Monument says ...

"leave this life to those who want to be here"

Well MilkMan, statistically, us God believers are going to be here longer than you will. Rational or not, atheism is hell on the life span.

"your capacity for goodwill and charity is meager compared to your capacity for evil and repression"

Right, because atheists aren't capable of such things right? Explain Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Pol Pot, and Enver Hoxha who among others managed to murder over 100 million people, in the 20th Century alone, through their atheistic regimes.

I'm not going to debate who's hands are bloodier, let's just say that mankind is capable of infinite wickedness, regardless of race, religion or creed.

comment #33

MilkMan says ...

atheism doesn't kill atheists

christianity kill atheists, along with jews, blacks, native americans, southeast asians and anyone who won't adhere to your ridiculous beliefs, traditions and stories

you need to take some remedial nazi

nazism WAS a religion

thats what this post is about and thats what i am talking about

ALL religion is worthless

ALL religious belief systems are bad for your health

Religion is what shortens your life

give me proof that atheism has killed more people

you cant

you cant prove anything about anything but you think you can and thats why religious people are a cancer, the deadliest type

comment #34

AuggieBenDoggie says ...

I love Maher and his show; I put it on when I have some of my more conservitive friends around jut to watch their heads swell with pent up rage.

But like so many other pseudo intellectuals on the left, Bill picks easy targets. One doubts he would be his usual smug and relaxed self if he had flipped the films discussion to 90% Islamic fundimentalism/10% Christiam.

comment #35

AuggieBenDoggie says ...

I love Maher and his show; I put it on when I have some of my more conservitive friends around just to watch their heads swell with pent up rage.

But like so many other pseudo intellectuals on the left, Bill picks easy targets. One doubts he would be his usual smug and relaxed self if he had flipped the films discussion to 90% Islamic fundimentalism/10% Christiam.

comment #36

AuggieBenDoggie says ...

ooops.....sorry.

comment #37

Monument says ...

MilkMan, atheism is a religion, like it or not. Non-belief is still a belief, atheism also requires faith as it is no more provable, in a tangible sense, than theism. My best friend is an atheist, we have great conversations, mainly because he has elevated his arguments above the petulant, one semester of junior college philosophy level. You're being willfully obstinate and childish, good luck with your ulcer.

comment #38

qdpsteve says ...

Monument, good stuff. :-)

comment #39

MilkMan says ...

wow, monument, you had to sleep on that one, huh?

sounds like you didn't get much sleep, what with all of your complex and layered thinking

it must be tough being you, having so much going on in your head

and dude, when in doubt, always attack someone's education, that really hits 'em where it hurts, you snob, not to mention how totally derivative you are, seeing as how that's Mgmax's favorite way of trying to take the upper hand in a conversation

maybe you could take another six hours to think of something clever to say

but watch out for that steve-o, because even though he is proudly serving as your lieutenant in the fight against the unbelievers, he has his eyes on the top stop once he figures out a way of saying what he thinks instead of having you say it for him

and "atheism is a religion" is a neologism, and a pretty specious one at that

not to mention that i'm not an atheist, i am agnostic, because I've never believed in any of the bullshit that you religous people believe in, not even when i was a child, when it was clear to me that the concept of a higher intelligence creating and overseeing existence was about as silly as ghosts, aliens, santa claus and the tooth fairy

your bible and your stories within are old and boring and poorly written

comment #40

qdpsteve says ...

The moral of MM's 9:07am comment: it's pointless to argue with the TempurPedic-deprived.

And thanks for the promotion to lieutenant but I'm not really interested in joining anyone's army at this point. I also could not care less MM whether you choose to believe or not. That's just your paranoid projection.

Back in the real world the points that I *was* trying to make in my earlier post was that:

(a) whether you like it or not, or dismiss it as 'propaganda or not, religion-- particularly Christianity-- *has already* played a serious role in American politics in the past, and a classic example is the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 60s. I think even Jeffrey would agree with that, he's an intelligent guy.

(b) if you're really truly the radical atheist you seem to want to portray yourself as MM, you're pretty much screwed in the political department, as BOTH of the major presidential candidates with actual chances of winning the White House in November are Christians, and BOTH want to expand FAITH-based programs.

These aren't about how I 'feel., MM' These are FACTS about America's present and history. But again, go ahead and dismiss everything you don't like as proselytizing propaganda, and stay ignorant. I honestly don't care.

comment #41

MilkMan says ...

i have no use for politics

on the continuum of creepy crawlers, i place people whose life's mission is to obtain power for it's own sake(politicians) right below religion addicts

and if its a choice between being fed with your type of bullshit or nothing, then I will gladly starve

listen to yourself: if someone dismisses what you say, then they are obviously "ignorant," without knowledge, barely able to move through the world

yeah, I'm ignorant, because I don't know what you know, or I don't choose to believe what you know, therefore i am a zero, a non-person, which is a perfect distillation of the christian ethos

thanks for making my point for me

comment #42

frankbooth says ...

Watch what you say about the fucking Tooth Fairy, MilkMan.

You've gone too far.

comment #43

Monument says ...

I'm an editor, I stay up late and get up early, and I certainly did not sit at my desk for 30 minutes hitting reload in anticipation of a snappy retort from you. I wasn't attacking your education, just the intellectual level of your argument and I stand by exactly what I said.

I don't believe you are an agnostic, as agnosticism requires a degree of humility. To claim that your non-belief is somehow more rational than my belief is the height of arrogance not to mention the exact type of broad claim to truth that you decry in believers.

comment #44

MilkMan says ...

theres a much more interesting conversation over at Glenn Kenny's, so yes, monument, i am arrogant and possessed of a much lower level of intelligence than you

congratulations

have fun in heaven, where all the humble people wind up, because nothing screams modesty like those who believe they deserve to live forever

comment #45

qdpsteve says ...

on the continuum of creepy crawlers, i place people whose life's mission is to obtain power for it's own sake(politicians) right below religion addicts

So we Christians are on a par with great and decent folks like Barack Obama, John McCain, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt? Wonderful, MM. I'll take that company any day of the week over yours.

comment #46

Monument says ...

"because nothing screams modesty like those who believe they deserve to live forever"

I'm not going to get in a theological debate, but "deserving to live forever" is the exact opposite of what Christianity teaches which brings me back to your level of education...

comment #47

Dave Polands Gut says ...

Another "movie" that will make about 25 cents.

What kind of person wastes their time making a movie bashing peoples faith?

comment #48

TheJERMSguy says ...

Guaranteed to be nominated for Best Doc, even if it sucks. But it will lose to another anti-Iraq War doc, unless someone can whip up a quick "John McCain is the devil" documentary real quick.

If we cease to exist when we die, why aren't more people going out in awesome murder-suicide sprees?

comment #49

MilkMan says ...

so the only stmulus to continue on living is the idea that you will continue on existing even after your body doesn't?

in other words, because i don't believe in an afterlife, why don't I kill myself, right?

because i love LIFE, not DEATH, which is the difference between you and me, Jerms, which is why i find christianity and other strains of religious belief so creepy, because they fetishize death, creating a death-drive that washes over all of humanity, including those who want no part of it, those who live in the present, those who do not crave an individual apocalypse, like you obviously do

my question for you is: if you know your going to to continue on to another plane of existence, the how come YOU don't go out in a murder-suicide spree, taking some lucky people with you, if what is waiting for you all is so wonderful?