The first amendment gives us the freedom-- and thankfully allows for protest. I think this is great. This is what the gay and lesbian need to do. If someone can write a check that helps support taking away someone's rights, they need to be prepared for the backlash. I think this is the right response and it may just wake people up to the reality of what they've done to these people. I say--keep it up!!!
Interesting tie in with the Mormon community. I bet this would have had a lot more play in the election had Romney been the VP. And it may show why he wasn't chosen--too much controversy.
Un-fucking-real. The way these people are talking it's as if they are RIGHT, and the owner is wrong. There is no such thing. A BELIEF IS A BELIEF. Get the fuck off your high horses.
"She can either go to the Mormons and say 'something is wrong here' or..." Oh go fuck yourself. What gives YOU the moral authority to tell anyone what to do, what to think, and how to vote. She doesn't need to go to her church and question the validity of its views. These are beliefs and opinions and, therefore, not wrong and not debatable.
She did nothing wrong. Protest all you want, but you should have made this count before the vote. I honestly don't care either way about this whole issue, but some of this protesting comes across as strong-arming, and that has the potential to backfire.
I think it is more than a question of right vs. wrong. If someone is willing to stand by their beliefs then, in their mind, they are right. But when the actions result in the loss of freedom to a people, no matter the race, religion, or sexual orientation, then people should be prepared to see results of their actions. Protests and boycotts are why America continues to evolve as a land of opportunity and freedom. Why shouldn't someone who is gay know who is against them and decide if they should give money to those who have taken something away from them? The wallet is the true differentiator between what we believe and what we hold as truth. If the person truly believes that prop 8 was right, they won't mind losing some paying customers, will they?
I live in Arizona (not from here originally) where I saw a similar injustice unfold. I have a wife and a child, but I believe that any man or women deserves the same freedom and rights as I have been afforded. That, my friends, is the America I believe in.
Aris, a belief is a belief, and the manager of the El Coyote has every right to donate to Prop 8 based on those beliefs. But those who opposed Prop 8 also have their beliefs and have every right to protest based on those beliefs.
That is called "equal rights" and you either accept it whole and do not accept it at all.
Posted by Edward Havens at November 15, 2008 12:35 PM
I'm not debating what you guys said at all. Yes, anyone can boycott the place. I get it.
But the way these people are talking really sounds to me like they think they're right, and that the manager of the restaurant is wrong. That she should go and question her belief to her church? I'm sorry but I dont buy that.
The fact that this news channel went to CBS to question Gary Bryan's donation... what the hell? Why would a news channel go anywhere to question someone's decision on how they voted??? See what I'm saying? THAT implies to me that Gary Bryan did something wrong. There's nothing wrong with voting yes on prop 8.
Devin, yes this is about actions but those actions stem form beliefs. But no one will ever convince me that any belief of mine is wrong (and Im not talking about assinine beliefs like the sun orbiting the Earth...) The fact that people are being INVESTIGATED for a legal vote they cast is, to me, NOT very American.
An interesting role reversal for how outraged people were when they were taken off the radio in many right leaning markets for the comments they made about bush, and that was the stations right- to protest what was said.
just like this, she donated money, and she's feeling the wrath of those she's paid to keep down.
i do feel bad for the other employees of El Coyote who have had their livelihood ripped from under them by one ladies religious beliefs.
For the record, it was not the owner of El Coyote who made the donation but her daughter, who is a manager at the restaurant.
But yes, what happened with the Dixie Chicks is a perfect example of the hypocrisy. Natalie said something that did not jibe with the religious conservatives' points of view, and the entire group suffered from a massive backlash. Now, the roles are reserved, and they don't like it.
Posted by Edward Havens at November 15, 2008 3:26 PM
Aris: "The way these people are talking it's as if they are RIGHT, and the owner is wrong. There is no such thing. A BELIEF IS A BELIEF."
So "no black people allowed" in the Mormon religion is also right within the context of their belief system, too?
"Oh go fuck yourself. What gives YOU the moral authority to tell anyone what to do, what to think, and how to vote. "
Shouldn't you be asking her church that question?
"These are beliefs and opinions and, therefore, not wrong and not debatable."
Oh, and while we're at it, let's put back that sun revolves around the earth theory in textbooks. After all, it's only wrong if you don't believe in it, too.
"I honestly don't care either way about this whole issue, but some of this protesting comes across as strong-arming,"
And outing businesses which were against Prop. 8 wasn't strong-arming?
"That she should go and question her belief to her church? I'm sorry but I dont buy that."
Why don't you buy that? Isn't that how her religion started in the first place?
"Why would a news channel go anywhere to question someone's decision on how they voted???"
Because they're a prominent business in the community?
"THAT implies to me that Gary Bryan did something wrong. There's nothing wrong with voting yes on prop 8."
Oh, and there's nothing wrong with separate-but-equal, too.
"The fact that people are being INVESTIGATED for a legal vote they cast is, to me, NOT very American."
But it's ok when the person casting the vote is black and they're being harassed because they might pick the Democrats.
Aris P, El Coyotes problems don't stem from how its owner voted, but rather the donation. Big difference.
That said, Aris P's argument has more merit than people here are giving him credit for. Imagine if this were a referendum on a gun ban in Montana successfully engineered by a progressive political operative who somehow found a way to get the needed votes. There'd be gun zealots up in arms in much the same way people are in this instance.
The mormans did nothing illegal here. They worked the system. That's the great and terrible thing about our country - if you get the votes, there's little you can't do, good or bad. I say shame on the gay lobby groups for not fighting a better and smarter fight. They got caught with their pants down on this one and clearly need better talent on their political committees.
Why would a news channel go anywhere to question someone's decision on how they voted???
"Because they're a prominent business in the community?"
And a person thinking that marriage should be between a man and a woman is something that a news organization has to investigate? Really? Wow. So, by implication, Gary Bryan has done something wrong. Is that what you're saying? Or are you saying the channel that did the investigating is the prominent business and therefore must do its civic duty and out that horrible monster Gary Bryan? investigate?
Be It Resolved That: Voting yes on Prop 8 = an investigatable offense/decsion. Perfect.
So you vote democratically, but you get investigated for it. Your belief that marriage is for men and women is somehow "wrong", and you must be outed for it. "Outed", like what happens when someone does something illegal or wrong. Got it.
Sounds like how democracy in Kabul or Zimbabwe works, to me.
NotImpressed: "That said, Aris P's argument has more merit than people here are giving him credit for. Imagine if this were a referendum on a gun ban in Montana successfully engineered by a progressive political operative who somehow found a way to get the needed votes. There'd be gun zealots up in arms in much the same way people are in this instance."
Gun zealots aren't an oppressed minority, in spite of them trying to brain-wash us into believing otherwise.
"The mormans did nothing illegal here."
If you don't count violating tax exempt laws, sure.
"I say shame on the gay lobby groups for not fighting a better and smarter fight. They got caught with their pants down on this one and clearly need better talent on their political committees."
Oh and why did those damn Freedom Riders have to be so uppity about being able to live with white folk?
Jimmy, when you get schooled by DZ, you know your point was dumb. Boycotts are a tried and true way of letting people know you're displeased with them.
And this isn't about opinions. You can think gays are awful all you like. This is about taking away rights.
Posted by Devin Faraci at November 16, 2008 12:17 AM
comment #1
D.Z.
says ...
It isn't like the church was strong-arming its members to give money.
Changed your tune after seeing this video, George?
Posted by D.Z.
at November 15, 2008 6:08 AM
comment #2
D.Z.
says ...
Sorry, the first sentence should be in quotes.
Posted by D.Z.
at November 15, 2008 6:09 AM
comment #3
JaySmire
says ...
The first amendment gives us the freedom-- and thankfully allows for protest. I think this is great. This is what the gay and lesbian need to do. If someone can write a check that helps support taking away someone's rights, they need to be prepared for the backlash. I think this is the right response and it may just wake people up to the reality of what they've done to these people. I say--keep it up!!!
Interesting tie in with the Mormon community. I bet this would have had a lot more play in the election had Romney been the VP. And it may show why he wasn't chosen--too much controversy.
Posted by JaySmire
at November 15, 2008 8:42 AM
comment #4
Aris P
says ...
Un-fucking-real. The way these people are talking it's as if they are RIGHT, and the owner is wrong. There is no such thing. A BELIEF IS A BELIEF. Get the fuck off your high horses.
"She can either go to the Mormons and say 'something is wrong here' or..." Oh go fuck yourself. What gives YOU the moral authority to tell anyone what to do, what to think, and how to vote. She doesn't need to go to her church and question the validity of its views. These are beliefs and opinions and, therefore, not wrong and not debatable.
She did nothing wrong. Protest all you want, but you should have made this count before the vote. I honestly don't care either way about this whole issue, but some of this protesting comes across as strong-arming, and that has the potential to backfire.
Posted by Aris P
at November 15, 2008 10:08 AM
comment #5
bildeaux
says ...
So all these Prop 8 supporters thought they could just stay in the closet?
Posted by bildeaux
at November 15, 2008 10:37 AM
comment #6
JaySmire
says ...
I think it is more than a question of right vs. wrong. If someone is willing to stand by their beliefs then, in their mind, they are right. But when the actions result in the loss of freedom to a people, no matter the race, religion, or sexual orientation, then people should be prepared to see results of their actions. Protests and boycotts are why America continues to evolve as a land of opportunity and freedom. Why shouldn't someone who is gay know who is against them and decide if they should give money to those who have taken something away from them? The wallet is the true differentiator between what we believe and what we hold as truth. If the person truly believes that prop 8 was right, they won't mind losing some paying customers, will they?
I live in Arizona (not from here originally) where I saw a similar injustice unfold. I have a wife and a child, but I believe that any man or women deserves the same freedom and rights as I have been afforded. That, my friends, is the America I believe in.
Posted by JaySmire
at November 15, 2008 12:21 PM
comment #7
Devin Faraci
says ...
Aris P, this isn't about beliefs. It's about actions. The owner of the El Coyote took action. Now action is being taken in return.
Posted by Devin Faraci
at November 15, 2008 12:29 PM
comment #8
Edward Havens
says ...
Aris, a belief is a belief, and the manager of the El Coyote has every right to donate to Prop 8 based on those beliefs. But those who opposed Prop 8 also have their beliefs and have every right to protest based on those beliefs.
That is called "equal rights" and you either accept it whole and do not accept it at all.
Posted by Edward Havens
at November 15, 2008 12:35 PM
comment #9
Aris P
says ...
I'm not debating what you guys said at all. Yes, anyone can boycott the place. I get it.
But the way these people are talking really sounds to me like they think they're right, and that the manager of the restaurant is wrong. That she should go and question her belief to her church? I'm sorry but I dont buy that.
The fact that this news channel went to CBS to question Gary Bryan's donation... what the hell? Why would a news channel go anywhere to question someone's decision on how they voted??? See what I'm saying? THAT implies to me that Gary Bryan did something wrong. There's nothing wrong with voting yes on prop 8.
Devin, yes this is about actions but those actions stem form beliefs. But no one will ever convince me that any belief of mine is wrong (and Im not talking about assinine beliefs like the sun orbiting the Earth...) The fact that people are being INVESTIGATED for a legal vote they cast is, to me, NOT very American.
Posted by Aris P
at November 15, 2008 12:53 PM
comment #10
Ryansi51
says ...
Remember the Dixie Chicks?
An interesting role reversal for how outraged people were when they were taken off the radio in many right leaning markets for the comments they made about bush, and that was the stations right- to protest what was said.
just like this, she donated money, and she's feeling the wrath of those she's paid to keep down.
i do feel bad for the other employees of El Coyote who have had their livelihood ripped from under them by one ladies religious beliefs.
Posted by Ryansi51
at November 15, 2008 1:53 PM
comment #11
corey3rd
says ...
Aris - On Nov. 3 it was a RIGHT that same sex couple couple receive a marriage certificate. They were not to be denied filing the paperwork.
The RIGHT was taken away by a pack of people who spread lies about arresting ministers.
Posted by corey3rd
at November 15, 2008 3:14 PM
comment #12
Edward Havens
says ...
For the record, it was not the owner of El Coyote who made the donation but her daughter, who is a manager at the restaurant.
But yes, what happened with the Dixie Chicks is a perfect example of the hypocrisy. Natalie said something that did not jibe with the religious conservatives' points of view, and the entire group suffered from a massive backlash. Now, the roles are reserved, and they don't like it.
Posted by Edward Havens
at November 15, 2008 3:26 PM
comment #13
D.Z.
says ...
Aris: "The way these people are talking it's as if they are RIGHT, and the owner is wrong. There is no such thing. A BELIEF IS A BELIEF."
So "no black people allowed" in the Mormon religion is also right within the context of their belief system, too?
"Oh go fuck yourself. What gives YOU the moral authority to tell anyone what to do, what to think, and how to vote. "
Shouldn't you be asking her church that question?
"These are beliefs and opinions and, therefore, not wrong and not debatable."
Oh, and while we're at it, let's put back that sun revolves around the earth theory in textbooks. After all, it's only wrong if you don't believe in it, too.
"I honestly don't care either way about this whole issue, but some of this protesting comes across as strong-arming,"
And outing businesses which were against Prop. 8 wasn't strong-arming?
"That she should go and question her belief to her church? I'm sorry but I dont buy that."
Why don't you buy that? Isn't that how her religion started in the first place?
"Why would a news channel go anywhere to question someone's decision on how they voted???"
Because they're a prominent business in the community?
"THAT implies to me that Gary Bryan did something wrong. There's nothing wrong with voting yes on prop 8."
Oh, and there's nothing wrong with separate-but-equal, too.
"The fact that people are being INVESTIGATED for a legal vote they cast is, to me, NOT very American."
But it's ok when the person casting the vote is black and they're being harassed because they might pick the Democrats.
Posted by D.Z.
at November 15, 2008 3:42 PM
comment #14
NotImpressedYet
says ...
Aris P, El Coyotes problems don't stem from how its owner voted, but rather the donation. Big difference.
That said, Aris P's argument has more merit than people here are giving him credit for. Imagine if this were a referendum on a gun ban in Montana successfully engineered by a progressive political operative who somehow found a way to get the needed votes. There'd be gun zealots up in arms in much the same way people are in this instance.
The mormans did nothing illegal here. They worked the system. That's the great and terrible thing about our country - if you get the votes, there's little you can't do, good or bad. I say shame on the gay lobby groups for not fighting a better and smarter fight. They got caught with their pants down on this one and clearly need better talent on their political committees.
Posted by NotImpressedYet
at November 15, 2008 3:43 PM
comment #15
Aris P
says ...
Why would a news channel go anywhere to question someone's decision on how they voted???
"Because they're a prominent business in the community?"
And a person thinking that marriage should be between a man and a woman is something that a news organization has to investigate? Really? Wow. So, by implication, Gary Bryan has done something wrong. Is that what you're saying? Or are you saying the channel that did the investigating is the prominent business and therefore must do its civic duty and out that horrible monster Gary Bryan? investigate?
Be It Resolved That: Voting yes on Prop 8 = an investigatable offense/decsion. Perfect.
So you vote democratically, but you get investigated for it. Your belief that marriage is for men and women is somehow "wrong", and you must be outed for it. "Outed", like what happens when someone does something illegal or wrong. Got it.
Sounds like how democracy in Kabul or Zimbabwe works, to me.
Posted by Aris P
at November 15, 2008 4:15 PM
comment #16
D.Z.
says ...
NotImpressed: "That said, Aris P's argument has more merit than people here are giving him credit for. Imagine if this were a referendum on a gun ban in Montana successfully engineered by a progressive political operative who somehow found a way to get the needed votes. There'd be gun zealots up in arms in much the same way people are in this instance."
Gun zealots aren't an oppressed minority, in spite of them trying to brain-wash us into believing otherwise.
"The mormans did nothing illegal here."
If you don't count violating tax exempt laws, sure.
"I say shame on the gay lobby groups for not fighting a better and smarter fight. They got caught with their pants down on this one and clearly need better talent on their political committees."
Oh and why did those damn Freedom Riders have to be so uppity about being able to live with white folk?
Posted by D.Z.
at November 15, 2008 4:17 PM
comment #17
Jimmycrackcorn
says ...
Why does everyone keep talking about the "owner" of El Coyote making the $100 donation. It WASN'T the owner, right?
Blacklists aren't any better when it's the left doing the blacklisting.
Posted by Jimmycrackcorn
at November 15, 2008 11:09 PM
comment #18
D.Z.
says ...
Jimmy: "Blacklists aren't any better when it's the left doing the blacklisting."
Yeah, MLK was dumb to point out businesses which discriminated against black people.
Posted by D.Z.
at November 15, 2008 11:51 PM
comment #19
Devin Faraci
says ...
Jimmy, when you get schooled by DZ, you know your point was dumb. Boycotts are a tried and true way of letting people know you're displeased with them.
And this isn't about opinions. You can think gays are awful all you like. This is about taking away rights.
Posted by Devin Faraci
at November 16, 2008 12:17 AM