comment #1

AndrewOwens says ...

I agree. Animation - especially that which does not feature motion capture (something Pixar are rightly proud of) has so little in common with traditional filmmaking that nominating it in the same category does both disciplines an terrible disservice.

There were no cameras involved in Wall*E, barely any actors... It's a magical film, but there's an appropriate category for it.

comment #2

Edward says ...

I enjoyed your Mexican analogy. Wall-E is terrific. I could go either way; though. Should a film stand on it's own, no matter how it was made, or should there be catagories? Should the Academy add a comedy-musical catagory to acknowledge worthy films from that genre? Perhaps. Do we need to care? Maybe not. But it's fun.

comment #3

Deathtongue_Groupie says ...

Damn, Jeff, you had me until literally the last sentence. WALL*e not even getting nominated much less winning would go down in Academy annuals as a moment of shame on par with Hoop Dreams and Alfred Hitchcock. It's ridiculous that Dreamworks is even running that banner ad on this very page for Kung Fu Panda, because outside of Waltz With Bashir there isn't another film within miles of being seriously considered.

But then for a man who rails month after month about mouth breathers and the cultural taste of the average American to write: "...I like all protests against anything and everything. I'm very much of a three-pronged-pitchfork-and-burning-torch kind of guy."

In other words, you love a good mob. Seriously?

comment #4

smarty says ...

A movie is a movie. One can only imagine how much work went into making WALL-E, and how big of a risk it was to make the first 40 minutes silent.
Its IS one of the best movies of the year, It SHOULD be nominated for Best Picture. It had a lot of relevant things to say w/out thumping its own self important chest with bad 'rah rah ' dialogue like MILK. This one actually entertained people.
Don't ghetto-ize animation.

comment #5

Edward says ...

Here's an interesting article about Wall*E's cinematic roots:
http://digitalcontentproducer.com/mil/features/video_filmic_animation_0901/index1.html

Maybe it should be a best film nominee.

comment #6

EDouglasCS says ...

I still don't think it'll get nominated BP, but I think the surprise will be when Andrew Stanton gets nominated for Director, knocking out Gus Van Sant or Ron Howard.

comment #7

Ms. M says ...

Would you also say that foreign movies shouldn't compete for Best Picture when there is a separate category?

Actually, I would say that animated movies should compete in Best Picture and that there shouldn't be a feature animated category in the Oscars. It is rare that there are more than two or three real contenders in the puny selection of qualifying films and no studio is close to Pixar in consistency now.

comment #8

bfm says ...

Mrs M, foreign language films may have their own category but the only difference between them and mainstream films is language - and these days with the likes of Slumdog Millionaire, Babel and Kite Runner, that line is increasingly blurred. So I don't have a problem with them competing for Best Picture, which is after all much harder for them due to it being a more crowded field and one which factors in box office takings.

Animated films for me don't fit there: they are made in such a different way that they should be recognized in their own category. It's like reality TV vs drama.

comment #9

K. Bowen says ...

I"m in the admire but not love camp for Wall-E. That said, it should be able to compete for the big prize and not just get moved to the animation category. .The special categories tend to pigeonhole films. For instance, Man on Wire has won every critics org doc award so far, but hasn't shown up outside of the documentary ghetto.

comment #10

Edward says ...

A good argument can be made for the differences in the process of making an animated film, a documentary, a dramatic/comedic film. Hence the different Oscar categories.

comment #11

Chris Willman says ...

"A good argument can be made for the differences in the process of making an animated film, a documentary, a dramatic/comedic film. Hence the different Oscar categories."

Edward: Are you saying that an animated film is not "a dramatic/comedic film"? Let's assume you mean live action. The process is the same in some ways--like the writing of a screenplay--and different in others. But the end result for the viewer is exactly the same: You go to a theater, plunk down $5-14, and watch a fictional story that has a beginning, middle and end, engaging almost all audiences in exactly the same way as any other movie. If they're so different, then start a campaign to ban animated films from best screenplay, director and picture categories. Wait... I don't want to give anyone any ideas.

Agree with Jeffrey more often than not, but this Mexican/American analogy is b.s. There has not yet been a good argument made for Wall-E not being a reasonable contender for best picture, here or anywhere else. I'd even venture that "Man on Wire" should be in contention, though I can see why that'd be a more contentious argument. I still can't figure out, even after all of Wells' posts on this subject this year, why the animation thing is even controversial, to anyone other than threatened SAG members.

comment #12

fredderf says ...

A great film is a great film, a story is a story, regardless of whether or not it is animated. Stop demeaning animation. You are missing the point. There is more emotion and yearning in that little robot's eyes that in all of the other live action characters competing. As long as the effect is the same, what is the difference whether it was a real actor or a hand that is the medium?

Didn't you feel his loneliness and longing during the first part of the film? Did it matter that it was animation? That doesn't stop the audience from connecting with the character. The reaction from the audience would still be the same if a live actor were playing the character.

Walle fell apart during the second half of the film, THAT is why it doesn't deserve a best pic nomination. NOT because it is animated. Stop limiting yourselves, we should all be open to all kinds of storytelling mediums.

Going with the nationalistic metaphor, if that Mexican film were better than US films, it should absolutely cross over, from the best foreign film category and into the best picture. We should be more loyal to film that to categories or organization. I understand law and order is important, but it shouldn't overshadow basic truth or your instinctual reaction to a good story told well.

comment #13

Deathtongue_Groupie says ...

When it comes to foreign films, keep in mind that the Academy has terrible rules regarding their selection and qualifications (The Band's Visit anyone?)

Worse, with arbitrary rules like only one per country per year films are being excluded based on an idiotic quota system.

A film that breaks through to a wider audience in America should have the privilege of running for Best Picture, regardless of language. Otherwise, we should exclude British films as well and make the Oscars solely about American films outside of the foreign language category.

comment #14

bluefugue says ...

"I agree. Animation - especially that which does not feature motion capture (something Pixar are rightly proud of) has so little in common with traditional filmmaking that nominating it in the same category does both disciplines an terrible disservice."

Baloney. Cinema is cinema. Plenty of great live-action films feature so much FX work that they are half animated anyway. The techniques used in bringing about the shadows and light that dance on the screen are not the point; what matters is the result. The tradition of cinema as glorious illusion is a great and noble one that begins with Melies and continues to the present day. If Wall-E provides an experience worthy of being named Best Picture (not saying it does, just positing an "if"), it makes no sense to forcibly ghettoize it according to arbitrary categorization.

comment #15

MindlessObamaton says ...

The near silent, first 15-20 minutes are classic. Much of the rest of it is not as good, except for the visuals.

comment #16

D.Z. says ...

Wall-E is neither widely loved nor admired. Kung Fu Panda made more money than it, which proves that Pixar needs to go back to entertaining people, instead of trying to play Michael Moore, while working for a faceless corporation. But if any animated film deserved to get out of the award ghetto, it would have been Millennium Actress, Paprika, or The Girl Who Leapt Through Time. As for Bashir, I think the "Is rotoscope animation?" debate will keep it from getting nominated.

comment #17

MindlessObamaton says ...

Pixar needs to let Brad Bird do whatever he wants. Both films he made for them are among the best, easily. THE INCREDIBLES just never gets old for me.

comment #18

Hallick says ...

"Wall-E is neither widely loved nor admired."

At this moment, WALL-E has a 96% positive rating at Rotten Tomatoes; an 8.6/10 rating at IMDb where it ranks in at #34 on the top 250 list; 2nd best selling DVD and 5th best selling Blu-Ray at Amazon right now; grossed about 153 million domestically (more than Kung Fu Panda's domestic) and a little over half a billion worldwide in theatrical release (less than Kung Fu Panda's worldwide); 2nd best score on the Movie City News critics’ awards summary and 1st best in the number of Top Ten lists it made; and on and on. Not to mention a chance at being nominated in the Academy Awards' Best Picture category, the reason the movie's being discussed here in the first place.

Outside the boundaries of your own heart and mind, where exactly has it fallen short of being widely loved or admired? Oh yeah, you bet, I'm sure the filmmakers are just kicking the crap out of themselves when they look at the success of Kung Fu Panda by comparison

comment #19

Hallick says ...

No, that 153 million number for WALL-E is DVD sales. It grossed 223 million in the domestic theater numbers vs. Kung Fu Panda's 215.

comment #20

Hallick says ...

If the category is Best Picture, period, then I don't care if movies like Man On Wire or WALL-E or, I dunno, Let The Right One In get put up for a vote. Once you eliminate certain kinds of movies from being considered, then you're not really a Best Picture category anymore, are you?

The problem with the citizenship analogy is this: if the Best Animated Film category did represent a certain country's citizen (much as Best Documentary or Best Foreign Language film would as well), then the Best Picture category would represent the globe, and not America or any other single nation. To re-adjust the example properly, Best Picture equals Best Human Being.

comment #21

Chris Willman says ...

D.Z. is apparently just psychotic.

comment #22

The Winchester says ...

But in the Animated Field, Wall-E has to bow down before Space Chimps.

comment #23

MindlessObamaton says ...

To be fair, Chris W., there were A LOT of people turned off by the message of the film. People, generally, don't want to be preached to when thye take their kids to a movie. They just don't want that. They want a fun, good time that's worth their money. Yeah, getting fat and global warming are important topics, yadda, yadda, yadda, but people get enough of that crap in real life. they go into a movie theater and want to forget for a couple hours. Of course, not all of us are in that mindset, but that IS the mindest of the general population. That is why this pic is not as beloved as some of Pixar's past 9and better ) family films.

comment #24

Aladdin Sane says ...

It wasn't that preachy. The Happening was preachy (and stupid, pointless, lame and pretty much everything else under the sun that sucks).
Sure Wall-E had a message, but that's not the same.

Hallick, it's great that you are defending Wall-E, but DZs delusional statements are all he has. If we take those away, we take away life's meaning for him.

comment #25

D.Z. says ...

Hallick: Kung Fu Panda also made more money, domestically than Wall-E, since its budget was lower than the latter film. Wall-E probably, at best, broke even here. Also, critics =/= general audiences, and BD =/= DVD sales.

comment #26

wildphantom says ...

I don't understand this issue you have with the way its made meaning it shouldn't qualify Jeff?

A movie is a movie.

I preferred it when there wasn't an Animated Feature category because we all know this....
the only reason they introduced it was because Pixar's movies were getting so damned good that they were comfortably amongst the five best movies of most years that they released one.

Was Ratatouille better than Michael Clayton? Yes

Was The Incredibles better than most of the best pic nominees of '04 (Million Dollar, Ray, Aviator, Finding Neverland) - hell yeah.

Was Finding Nemo better than frickin Seabiscuit; Mystic River!?? Definitely

Wall-E I don't think is necessarily their best film. I do think its maybe their most important and relevant film however, and a perfect film to get a Best Picture nomination. I really hope the Academy do the right thing

comment #27

BurmaShave says ...

D.Z. what a film cost has nothing to do with the public. What you said about their respective grosses is total horseshit.

comment #28

CitizenKanedforChewingGum says ...

"Hallick: Kung Fu Panda also made more money, domestically than Wall-E,"

No, it didn't. 223 to 218, Wall-E edged it. Stop arguing cold hard facts.

"since its budget was lower than the latter film."

Since when does discussing domestic gross have *anything* to do with the budget?

"Wall-E probably, at best, broke even here."

Laughable. 223 domestic + 278 foreign + 153 DVD (even tho' it just came out) on a 180 budget is breaking even? Teach me this new math.

"Also, critics =/= general audiences, and BD =/= DVD sales."

And D.Z. =/= any semblance of sense.

comment #29

D.Z. says ...

Kane: I like how you have a problem with me discussing the budget, but then you try to add foreign and DVD sales to make it look like a bigger hit than it really is.

comment #30

Chris Willman says ...

Let's just go back for a moment, D.Z., to your opening statement.

"Wall-E is neither widely loved nor admired."

Ahhh. Let's let that one sit there for a moment, unadorned, shall we?

Okay. Now let's air the stink out of the room and get back to business.

comment #31

the400blows says ...

Here's an interesting question: Should animated films be nominated for Best Picture based on the criteria by adults or children or both? As an upper-elementary school teacher, I can tell you that the majority of the kids in my classroom did not care for Wall-e. After watching it for just 10 minutes, they wanted to do something else. As a matter of fact, they liked Space Chimps a heckofa lot more than Wall-e. So should an animated movie that kids didn't much care for get nominated for Best Picture? It's interesting that the critics didn't care for Cars yet the kids loved it. I think an animated movie deserves to get nominated for Best Picture when both adults and children see the brilliance of the film, such as The Beauty and the Beast, The Lion King, and most recently--Ratatouille. To me, Wall-e does not fit this bill and does not deserve to get nominated for Best Picture.