comment #1

vansmith says ...

Zzzz, Hamas leaders have to play tough guy and launch rockets otherwise they'll get killed by hardliners, Israel has to play super tough guy because of hardliners and blah blah blah. that whole area needs a do over...

comment #2

Sabina E says ...

both Hamas and the IDF can go burn in hell for all I care.

My heart goes out to all those innocent Palestinians who have been murdered in cold blood. I will only support Israel's right to exist if they recognize Palestinians' demands for their own state, too.

Bombing mosques-- what a huge insult! It won't fix anything. In fact, it's only to make the Palestinians even more angry.

comment #3

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

Fareed Zakaria made a great point on his show yesterday. The question isn't whether Israel's actions are justified (I say of course they are!), but whether they are wise. That's where things get complicated.

comment #4

plastiqueelephant says ...

Thank god Obama is a pragmatist who won't make such George Bushesque dumbass terms. The incursion into Lebabanon a couple of years ago empowered Hezbollah and denigrated Israel's security situation and that is by far the most likely result. It's highly unlikely that Hamas will be destroyed by this even if Israel is willing to reoccupy Gaza for the indefininate future (which has worked ace for the bloody USA in Iraq right?). And Fatah can't step in without being branded Israeli collaborators so Abbas is screwed by this. Plus Hamas has 15-20K militants and Fatah's been more or less cleansed from the strip and as such has no infrastructure to lead. So Israel's killing a wholle bunch of civilians for what outcome? Inflaming Arab anger further and increasing the number of angry young men willing to fight for the cause.

Negotiation is the only path to peace as slow and frustrating as it can be. Like it was in Northern Ireland. Like it would have been in Iraq. Hamas are motherfuckers but so was Saddam and the IRA and the Tamil Tigers and as is anyone attacking civilians. Fighting them just plays into their bloody hands.

comment #5

Mr. Muckle says ...

The fact that war was ever thus is no argument for its continuation, it is an argument for its cessation. Fantasies like, "If you were a dung beetle would you eat shit?" are useless. Otherwise, if you cannot envision and enact any alternative to organized murdering called war, then obviously you're in support of its continuation, as given by this posting. And we cannot expect your response to depart from your level of evolution.

The whole warring ethos is built upon the "they did this, well they did that" argument of prior offenses as justification for current offenses. But you cannot discover the first offense. Everyone is an offender. All that has to be dropped. There is no justification. If you continue to justify warring, only one thing is certain--your time will come. Have fun then.

comment #6

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

Mr. Muckle, your argument has appeal, but where does the notion of self defense fit into what you're saying? Does it at all?

comment #7

dinther says ...

The question shouldn't be, "isn't it reasonable that Isreal respond?" -- it is, should that response be proportional to the acts of aggression. Isreal's response far exceeds the acts of aggression.

And another question that should precede these questions: when is it okay that a state create blockades that effectively starve large parts of another state's population? Is it okay simply because it is Isreal doing it? And why has not the United States done something about that?

comment #8

Mr. Muckle says ...

Not impressed: I am not being attacked. To imagine that I am being attacked and what would I do then is one of those fantasies that I recommend dropping. For example, the entire grotesquely bloated defense department (nearly bankrupting the US) is based on imagining what kind of attacks might come and constructing defenses for them. This kind of thinking has to stop, because it contributes to an atmosphere of paranoia and incipient conflict. So the human being, individually (and, it follows, collectively) has to develop some mature forms of self-control in thought.

Then, I suggest, 90% of the problem will disappear. So one can live peacefully, not attacking others and not bristling with anticipatory defensiveness. This is individual. The collective will follow.

comment #9

Mr. Muckle says ...

By the way, Not Impressed, your comment re: "are they wise" hits the nail on the head, better than I do, I think. That's the question everyone, including Israelis and Palestinians should ask. Then some kind of useful solution might be evolved.

comment #10

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

Mr. Muckle, Israel did not imagine being attacked. Rockets have been fired from Gaza.

comment #11

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

But justified or not, It definitely is hard to imagine a useful solution evolving from what's happening right now...

comment #12

DavidF says ...

Pragmatists are in short supply with these things and most people with strongly held opinions have close to no clue what they're talking about, IMHO.

Fact is, Hamas' strategy - in fact the strategy, of all terrorists - is to provoke a "disproportionate response." It's like some kid at recess poking you and poking you and poking you and as soon as you finally shove him away he calls the teacher and says, "He hit me!" And who gets detention?

If Hamas wants to govern and do good by its citizens they have NOTHING to gain by lobbing rockets into Israel every single day. It's certainly not one of the keys to obtaining sovereignty and freedom, nor is it a key to defeating Israel in any real sense. So why do it?

Civilian deaths are part of every war and anyone who thinks Hamas doesn't WANT Israel to kill their people on CNN is really missing the mentality over there.

Israel has little to gain by going in in that they are unlikely to eradicate Hamas or win Palestinian support. Still, they could hardly sit by indefinitely while the rockets kept coming.

When will this end? IMHO, it will end when the Palestinian nationalist movement produces a Martin Luther King or Ghandi. They have militants, both secular and religious, up the wazoo and venerate Arafat who was a terrorist billionaire, not even Palestinian by birth...stop shooting Israelis and it will be a bit easier to take the moral high ground.

comment #13

Mr. Muckle says ...

Not Impressed: I did not say no one has ever been attacked. I say imagination plays tricks that tempt people to justify atrocities. I did say that all parties are offenders. Shall we all commit suicide by war, then? I say that hypothetical questions like, "What would you do if you were attacked?" are a waste of intellectual and other energy. Someone who attacks me will just have to find out what happens. I'm also not interested in commenting on Middle East politics, just on how the mind functions.

The discussion relates to Jeff's previous post re: bullies. It is surely a fantasy to think that retaliating in kind to bullies brings an end to it. Hasn't happened yet, never will happen, except in the minds of dupes who like to live in and profit from such fantasies, say, oh, 99% of the film industry.

comment #14

DavidF says ...

p.s. My comment about people with strong opinions was directed at those like DeafBrownTrashPunk who:
a) Are unaware that Israel has long since acknowledged the rights of Palestinians to a state; as has the USA.

b) Have all the sympathy in the world for Palestinians who are killed, and don't even make passing mention of Israelis who are killed.

Yeah, bombing empty mosques is a real crime compared to intentionally sending rockets into schools and supermarkets on a daily basis.

Heck, that attitude is almost good enough to score you a vote at the UN General Assembly.

comment #15

Ms. M says ...

I feel some sympathy for the Palestinian civilians but they need to wise up. Why aren't the people outraged at the continual pattern of their leaders in placing key strategic and military installations in civilian areas?

comment #16

Sabina E says ...

DavidF,

wow, you really need to wake up and read the news.

I am not anti-Israel (on the contrary, I've met some really cool Israeli people) but right now, it's very hard for me to not express my anger and outrage at the Israelis for what they're doing to the Palestinians.

The U.S media is very pro-Israel and hardly mentions Palestinian civilians who have been murdered. Rather, they keep talking about "Hamas targets," trying to justify why mosques, schools and houses have been bombed by the IDF.

Let's see, more than 500 Palestinians have been murdered in less than one week, while less than 100 Israelis are dead.

While Palestinians are trapped inside Gaza, with no way out because Egypt has shut its borders, and being killed by Israeli rockets.

While thousands of Palestinians are displaced at refugee camps across in the West Bank, being shut off by the huge wall that Israel has built to keep out the Palestinians.

Yeah, geez!!! I think I'll offer my sympathy for the Palestinians, thanks.

comment #17

DavidF says ...

It's easy to get tangled in one of these neverending debates so I won't but, I've seen plenty of headlines listing the number of Palestinian dead. However, the vast majority to date are NOT civilians, and it's not a hockey game so who is dying MORE is a bit besides the point and quantifying it buys into Hamas' arguments.

And that wall (which is mostly not a wall) was built to keep out Palestinian bombers and it's largely worked. So, as horrible as it is in some respects, it's the lesser of evils in the Middle East. We'll never know how many Israeli civilians it has saved so all we can do is talk about the Palestiinans who are divided by it.

There remains a crucial moral difference between killing civilians as "collateral damage" and targeting them BECAUSE they are civilians and I think it is clear where the parties here stand on those issues. That's why I can sympathize with Palestinian civilians who are dying but also know it is their own government who are largely to blame.

The point, at the end of the day, is that this is not a zero sum game and sympathy does not have to go to one party of the other exclusively. If the Palestinians stop shooting rockets, Israel doesn't invade, at which point the possibility of a real, lasting peace, complete with two states, can be negotiated.

comment #18

Gnome de Guerre says ...

DavidF,

Hear hear! Beautifully articulated.

comment #19

Abbey Normal says ...

Keep in mind, of course, that many of these civilian deaths are caused because Hamas purposefully stashes weapons and other war-making resources near holy sites and population centers. Hamas puts their own citizenry in harm's way. Meanwhile, Israel routinely goes OUT of their way to keep civilian casualities to a minimum. They warn in advance of attacks, often giving away position and putting their own soldiers at risk.

I try to be an open-minded person and see both sides in a conflict. But in this case, it's hard to blame Israel for what's going on here. Hamas made their bed by refusing to extend the cease-fire and by shooting rockets into Israel from Gaza after Israel ceded the land to them. It's outrageous and sad that Hamas now makes the citizenry lie in that bed with them.

comment #20

dangovich says ...

If the Palestinians stop shooting rockets, Israel doesn't invade, at which point the possibility of a real, lasting peace, complete with two states, can be negotiated.

You neglected to mention that Israel also has an obligation: stop expanding West Bank settlements. U.S. pressure has failed to stop this expansion, and unless we tie our financial aid to a settlement freeze, it likely to continue.

comment #21

Teacher's Pets says ...

DavidF: Just because Hamas exploits the civilians Israel kills doesn't mean they aim for them to die or are anywhere near as culpable for their deaths as the Israelis. Same goes for the Israeli politicians using their own country's dead to justify their policies, which you acknowledge are probably self-defeating.

Wells: No, you don't say "comme ci comme ca" about the rockets; if you're a real leader, you take actions that will actually make a difference in stopping attacks on your citizens, in both the immediate and long-term future, even if it means sacrificing other political aims (settlements, capitals, etc.). You and several commenters dismiss civilian deaths by saying, "Well, civilians die in wars." Yes, and that's exactly why wars have to be totally justified and of last resort; it doesn't make it OK that civilians die because a group of political elites on either side decide it's in their best interest to escalate a conflict...

comment #22

The Bandsaw Vigilante says ...

Classic article from THE ONION:

"God Re-Floods Middle East"

http://www.theonion.com/content/node/27915

comment #23

Teacher's Pets says ...

Abbey Normal: I'm sure if you were an armed group in a tiny strip of land that is one of the most densely populated in the world, surrounded by an exponentially more powerful state, you'd keep all your foot soldiers and weapons out in the countryside, where they could be more easily and safely destroyed by your opponent.
This apology for an incredibly powerful army dropping one-ton bombs on apartment complexes makes little sense; I wouldn't blame Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint in Jerusalem for being too close to civilians who could be killed in a suicide attack.
Hamas runs Gaza, so they are part of the infrastructure of everyday life there, just like Israeli security forces (if not more so); Israel makes a choice when picking targets whether to take on greater risk by, for example, sending in commandos in a precision strike or in using cluster bombs. Whether you think that choice is right or wrong, if they choose cluster bombs, knowing the high risk to civilians, you can't blame Hamas when those civilians are killed.

comment #24

Abbey Normal says ...

Teacher's Pets: You're wrong. Hamas DOES aim for their civilians to die. It is, in fact, the center of their strategy in their single-minded quest to wipe Israel off the map. They want people to blame Israel for the civilian deaths that Hamas actually facilitates.

Please stop perpeutating this disgusting strategy. Civilian deaths in Gaza are the fault of Hamas. Period.

comment #25

DavidF says ...

The discussion here has been admirably restrained so far!

Teacher's Pet - I don't see how you can agree that Hamas "exploits" their citizens - firing rockets from mosques and neighbourhoods, using ambulances to transport arms etc. - and then argue they don't aim for their civilians to die.

In my book, the person who uses another person as a human shield is the one guilty of murder.

Israel isn't using their dead to justify the attacks - they are using the constant infringement upon their sovereignty and the unending threat to their civilian population to do so. I wonder what the US response would be if Mexico fired rockets, every day, into Brownsville, Texas...

Anyway, it's not a hard argument for Israel to make when the enemy has written, in black and white, that they won't be happy until Israel's gone and they won't negotiate.

I would think that Americans, post 9/11, have a better understanding of how Muslim fundamentalists (clearly, not all Muslims!) regard issues of life and death, martyrdom and sacrifice differently than most of us in the west.

And don't have any illusions about how media savvy Hamas is. You think they don't know the value of a picture of a dead Palestinian baby on CNN's web site? You think they'd think twice about passing up a photo op over setting up a launch pad in a safer location? Rest assured, it's a price they are largely willing to pay. I'd think that's obvious by now.

comment #26

JustThisGuy says ...

Personally, I think that the Israelis have every right to defend themselves from attack, but that they should limit themselves to a proportional response.

Yes, they need to stop Hamas from launching rockets into Israel, but do they really need to go in on a full scale land invasion to do so? I'm pretty sure that Mossad could have all of Hamas' leaders dead in their sleep with zero collateral damage if they wanted to, but instead they've opted to take the most openly destructive path available to them. To me that is just as reprehensible as Hamas launching rockets into Israel.

comment #27

Teacher's Pets says ...

Abbey Normal: Please provide evidence for your assertion.

P.S. I do think the strategy of exploiting civilian deaths is disgusting, whether done by Hamas, the Taliban, Israel, or the United States, but it's a big leap from there to what you assume they are doing.
You said earlier you were open-minded and tried to see both sides, so step back for a second and look at what you just wrote and see if it fits your standards...

comment #28

Teacher's Pets says ...

DavidF: Let's make the worst possible assumptions about Hamas and their role in Palestinian society and make a little thought experiment.

Let's say I'm robbing a bank, and I take a bunch of people hostage. I'm exploiting those people for my own safety and profit. Now, if one of those people dies in the course of my robbery, I am responsible for their death. If the SWAT team does everything they can to prevent the hostages from being harmed while still bringing me to justice and preventing me from causing further harm, even to the extent of risking or losing their own lives, and still a hostage is killed, the responsibility is mine.
If the SWAT team shows up, shoots at the bank with automatic weapons and little regard for the hostages, and kills several of them...in that case, whether or not I'm killed or brought to justice, one could reasonably ask whether they did the right thing. I'm still at least partially responsible, but that responsibility is shared.

In Gaza, what's happening is even more irresponsible, since it most likely will not deter and may encourage future attacks on Israeli citizens.

comment #29

PCP_Patriots says ...

We should not forget that Israel has forced 1.5 Million Palestinians to live in a ghetto no longer than a mile. If I was a Palestinian too, I'd not be too happy either. As the great Bob Novak says often, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".

comment #30

DavidF says ...

Due respect, but Philip's statement is a really good example of what I said earlier about most people with strong opinions not really knowing their facts.
I won't write an essay about why there are refugee camps in Gaza and the West Bank while the Jewish refugees who came to Israel in 1948 are citizens, but suffice it to say, it's not the reason he gives.

Bob Novak may have said just that but unless you're a big fan of the 9/11 attacks it might do well to remember who it was who pioneered the art of airline hijacking. Call it FREEDOM FIGHTING if you want, because politics may be relative, but I don't believe morality is and intentional civilian deaths are a red line for me.

Maybe Osama Bin Laden has a good point or two about American hegemony - one could argue that - but as soon as he kills 3,500 innocent people - aiming to kill many more, I could give a shit.

Your thought experiment makes a legit point, Teacher's Pets, but it's still subjective and contains a lot of suppositions. Did the SWAT team explicitly tell your hypothetical robbers, "We're coming in with machine guns at 1 p.m. so now is the time to clear out?"

No,to use your analogy, you took hostages because you want the SWAT team to come in and kill you and some hostages. You never wanted the money in the bank in the first place! See, Hamas sets up in civilian centres because THEY WANT Israel to attack civilian centres! It's fucked up, I know, but turn on your TV, man.

As I said in my first post, when there is a pacifist Palestinian movement, Israel (which has a very strong one!) will have their backs to the wall. In the meantime, this fighting will go on for a bit but nothing will really change.

comment #31

Abbey Normal says ...

Teacher's Pets: There is abundant evidence that Hamas does things like:

* launch missile attacks from schoolyards
* surround Hamas leaders and targets with children and women
* store weapons in high population centers

There is simply no debate left about this. Hamas puts civilians in danger--purposefully--as a war strategy. Any unbiased observer of the conflict acknowledges this.

Regarding your first analogy about putting their weapons "out in the countryside": There's a difference between finding a place for your military centers in a crowded civilian area and actively locating those military centers in a school.

Regarding your second analogy about the bank robbers with hostages: Bank robbers aren't usually lobbing missiles at another country. Israel can't negotiate as if this is a hostage situation. Hamas is actively making war on them. Your analogy makes no sense.

I have to go work now, so I'll end just be saying that I respect your views and agree with some sentiments here that the Palestinian situation is really terrible. And I admit Israel does things sometimes that make me crazy. I wouldn't even say I'm a particuarly strong supporter of Israel. However, the supposition that civilian casualties in this particular conflict happening right now are, on balance, much more the fault of Hamas than Israel seems to me irrefutable.

comment #32

PCP_Patriots says ...

It should be noted that in 1948 during the first Arab-Israeli war, Israel did terror attacks on Palestinian civilians where they were forced from their land, left in refugee camps, and living in squalor. Living in ghettos and refugee camps are a breeding ground for hate.

Jimmy Carter is right.

comment #33

PCP_Patriots says ...

It should be noted that the bombs and weapons the Israelis are using to kill both "military" and civilian targets are given to them by the United States. The US gives more foreign aid to Israel than any other nation in the world. Israel is also to blame for the role in the Arab-Israeli conflicts. Israel has, if we look at the Arab point of view (which is no less right than the West's view), taken land from Palestinian people by force, created a nation of exclusion, refused to allow Palestinian people to come back to their home land and have used their hubris to illegally annex East Jerusalem and set up illegal settlements on further land that is not theirs.

If I were an Arab and had an Arab point of view I would hate the United States for their one sided support of a nation that was created by a Zionist movement (which is itself argued by the Arab and European nations as possibly racist). And if I was Arabic and of an Arab nation I would want the liberation of the Palestinian people to their homeland and a vote, similar to South Africa, where the majority wins.

Not being Arab, I do see two things:
1 - with the end of the Soviet Union there is no reason to be any more friendly with Israel than the Arab people.
2 - Palestinian people live in ghettos and refugee camps and for over 60 years the Arab people have been screwed by the West, the United Nations, and the Israelis.

comment #34

DavidF says ...

Philip, Jimmy Carter is clueless.
First of all, it was the Arabs who started the 1948 war - that's not a matter of dispute at all.
Given a choice between their own state, but alongside a Jewish one, and a Palestinian state or nothing, they opted for the latter and lost.

Secondly, there were undoubtedly some attacks on civilians. There was also mini civil war in which the new Israeli government attacked militia elements who were more hardline. A monopoly on force is a prerequisite for stable government.

The refugee camps are there because the Arabs wanted them there, period. Every war has refugees. An equal number of Jews fled Arab lands in 1948 and, in general, they were wealthier and left more behind in every respect. They were all granted Israeli citizenship.
Now their grandkids can serve in the army and risk their lives in the Palestinian refugee camps.

The Palestinian refugees, however, were denied citizenship in Jordan (already 70% Palestinian, ergo a Palestinian state, by the way), Lebanon, Egypt etc and purposely placed in camps so people like you, 60 years later, could tell us how bad Israel is. They have been treated like pawns, most horribly.

A breeding ground for hate indeed. And whose interests does that hate serve? Teaching children that Jews are evil, that one day you will go back to your grandfather's house?
Did I mention Carter is a fool?

comment #35

PCP_Patriots says ...

Another point is that when one is not equipped or given billions of dollars in aid and weapons, and are living in ghettos and squalor, one must revert to either terrorist attacks or guerilla warfare. When you have nothing, you have nothing to lose. Hamas, whether a pathetic organization or a group of freedom fighters, is doing what they only can do. As Spielberg's film Munich said when they Mossad agents and the PLO members were together in a room together, the PLO member said that he wants his land back, he doesn't care if the world looks at them as animals because in the long run, the world will begin to ask questions and wonder why.

The Palestinians will win the war on public relations and just like all people and all ethnic groups, they will never end their struggle for freedom and liberation.

I must say I can't frown upon them since if I was in their position, living in a ghetto with my land taken away, without a country, occupied by a foreign force, fighting a guerrilla war may be the only alternative.

The only solution for peace in Palestine/Israel will be the repatrioting of Palestinians to their land with a free vote of all people, Muslim or Jew, similar to South Africa.

comment #36

DavidF says ...

Philip posted more insane rambling while I was posting.
You're right - no reason to be friendly with the only democracy in that region when we have at least as much in common with Syria and Iran. Damned Zionist lobby obscuring us from the truth of where our interests lie.

And, yeah, those poor Arabs have been so screwed by the west. Are there any people worse off than the 20+ Arab nations and their 20+ votes on the UN? If only they had access to something we needed, something that would allow them to accumulate at least a little bit of wealth to spend on pet projects.

I mean, the Palestinian plight is so important to them, I'm sure they would set up a Palestinian state and turn around those squalid refugee camps if only they could find a couple of spare nickles to scrape together.

Even being as poor as they are, I'm sure they would create a Palestinian state if they controlled that land, as they did between 1948 and 1967, right?
Jeeze, dude. KNOW YOUR FACTS.

The poor Arabs - you almost made me laugh there.

comment #37

PCP_Patriots says ...

DavidF is a man of many Red Herrings. To say that Egypt and Jordan and the rest of the Arab nations should grant citizenship to Palestinians is an easy way out of the real issue. Palestinians are PALESTINIANS. They are not a people of another nation. Their land is the same land as the Israelis call their own. As a result, they belong there and deserve a full repatrioting of the Israeli land and a vote to vote their people into power if they outnumber Jews. Jimmy Carter is write (and believe otherwise I do not like Jimmy Carter at all ... but he is right and his book is right).

comment #38

fishcakeboy says ...

How the hell can you dismiss the deaths of 531 Palestinians, nearly all of them innocent civilians as some sort of collateral damage? I dare you to view the footage on today's Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/video/2009/jan/05/gaza-hospitals-wounded) and not be appalled. This man lost his three beautiful little boys today to an Israeli tank shell. The hospital they took them too is so short supplied thanks to 3 years of Israeli blockades that they couldn't even rest them on gurneys. They laid their lifeless corpses onto plastic sheets on the floor like slaughtered lambs. Hamas is the democratically elected government of the people of Gaza. They are defending their territory from a colonial aggressor. I disagree with Hamas rhetoric and ideaology that seeks the total destruction of the State of Israel, but there is absolutely no way in hell you can justify the Israli incursion into Gaza. The posts in support of Israel's aggression on this forum show's the blinkered view most Americans have of the Arab-Israeli conflict and it sickens me. Israel and the US are the bad guys on this occassion. Wise up Jeff. 5 dead Israelis (3 of which are soldiers) and 531 dead Palestinians. You do the math? Gaza is the new Warsaw ghetto and the victims of that atrocity have become the villains. Don't you just love Fascism? Next time you come to London Jeff I am going to want words with you in person. You've really shown yourself up with this post. I am very, very disappointed with you.

comment #39

PCP_Patriots says ...

It should be noted that DavidF uses more Red Herrings as arguments. To actually believe his George Bush rhetoric of saying a democracy is what makes the determination of who the US should be friends with is ridiculous. The Arab point of view states Israel is by far not a true democracy and Jimmy Carter states the same. Israel, in their point of view, is no more a democracy than South Africa was. Also, any democracy that elects one of the Middle East's biggest mass murders like Ariel Sharon is suspect, as the Europeans have stated.

The Arab people, which DavidF seems to think have not been screwed, were owned by the Europeans and Turks illegally for years, had their land subdivided, and had resources and artifacts stolen.

Apart from Arab unity, once Palestinians have their own country, then they can tell us how they'll run it. Right now, they have none, with DavidF toting the George Bush and Hillary Clinton line.

In all honesty, with the collapse of the Soviet Union there is no reason why the US should be choosing sides. And either way, Nassar, during the Cold War, was the beginning. In the end, Palestinians will win and get their rights and be liberated from a biased one sided Western policy. And those folks who toot the horn of Israel without seeing the other point of view will always lose.

The world will be asking questions and Europe has been the first.

comment #40

Chicago48 says ...

Well yeh, wars always have more civilian casualties, but Jeff you forget a couple of points: It's OUR taxpayer money that funds the welfare state of Israel...our taxpayer money....70% of that money goes to buy weapons....Funny how the American people are down on welfare recipients in THIS country, but don't mind welfare country recipients like Israel.
And to the Palestinians I state this: Stage your own Exodus and find another land, another continent to move your people. Because there will never be peace as long as you live next to Israel. Give it up. Petition the UN to buy some land in Africa or Europe....Just move already.

comment #41

Chicago48 says ...

"When will this end? IMHO, it will end when the Palestinian nationalist movement produces a Martin Luther King or Ghandi."
No -- it will end when the Palestinians petition the UN to buy them land and stage their own Exodus. Let's face it, psychologically, the Jews love to feel they are persecuted and hated by "someone" and even if the Palestinians/Hamas/Hezbollah were to leave, exit the land, the Jews would still feel paranoid, that somebody is trying to destroy them. I personally think the Palestinians (Hamas, or whatever) are a bunch of dummies....they could get a whole lot more if they just go to the UN and petition a move off the continent....and do their own Exodus. We can even bring back Preminger to direct the movie.

comment #42

KC says ...

Not even commenting on the politics of it all, but what a blase reaction from a guy who gets bile in his throat over the concept of elasticized waistbands!

comment #43

hunterd says ...

Israeli forces are not murdering civilians. The Hamas leadership specifically places its war barracks ect al, in the middle of housing. They build schools in order to use them as human shields. They SPECIFICALLY and pointedly hide their headquarters in areas where collateral damage will be maximum for the purpose of making Israeli forces look bad. This is a common tactic in history. How common? Not one, but two articles of the Geneva convention expressly outlaw this. But Schmucks like DeafBrownTrashPunk who only read the headlines eat it up.

News flash, The Palestinian people REJECTED A TWO STATE SOLUTION. Ever heard of Jordon? That was supposed to be Palestine. They rejected every offer Israel has ever given. And frankly, Israel has been entirely too generous.

The number of missiles launched at Israel is similar to the numbers dropped on Brittan during WWII. Brittan responded by firebombing Dresden and murdering 250,000 civilians in an act that would have constituted war crimes had the Allies lost the war.

What other nation on the face of this planet has ever given back lands won in a defensive war? What other nation would be decried for winning strategic defense outposts in a war where they were attacked by no less than FIVE enemy states, simultaneously.

I have a question for you DeafBrownTrashPunk, why is it that you only care about Israeli's shifting boarders? Where were the protests for any other boarder dispute? Why silence then? Is it because of a deep seeded social acceptance of anti-semitism? Where are the protests asking us to give back California to Native Americans? Surely our treatment of this group far outpaces what has been done to the Palestinian people.

And the shame of it all is that yes, Palestinians are the biggest victims here. Their civilians die in the largest numbers, and in the worst conditions. And many of Israel's policies are utterly disgusting. But it is not an issue of Israel vs. Palestine at all. It's clearly a proxy war between other nations (with Israel acting as the US proxy). The children of Palestine are simply forced to the front lines. So long as you look at it as either evil Jews, or evil Palestinians, YOU are part of the problem.

comment #44

D.Z. says ...

Deafbrown: "I will only support Israel's right to exist if they recognize Palestinians' demands for their own state, too. "

So when are the Arabs going to recognize the Darfur refugees' right to exist?

"Bombing mosques-- what a huge insult!"

But gunning down a Jewish seminary Columbine-style is fine and dandy?

"The U.S media is very pro-Israel and hardly mentions Palestinian civilians who have been murdered."

Does the Arab media mention Israeli civilians who get murdered?

"Let's see, more than 500 Palestinians have been murdered in less than one week, while less than 100 Israelis are dead. "

Well, some Palestinian sympathizers managed to kill over 3,500 people at Ground Zero a few years ago, so...

"While Palestinians are trapped inside Gaza, with no way out because Egypt has shut its borders, and being killed by Israeli rockets."

The fact that Egypt doesn't want to deal with those refugees, even after electing the Muslim Brotherhood to office, should say something about Hamas.

"While thousands of Palestinians are displaced at refugee camps across in the West Bank, being shut off by the huge wall that Israel has built to keep out the Palestinians."

If they don't like the wall, then stop sending bombs on the other side.

dinther: "Isreal's response far exceeds the acts of aggression."

You're right. If Hamas had its way, it'd probably pull an attack not dissimilar to the ones seen in Mumbai, Spain, and the U.K. So why not just be pro-active?

"And another question that should precede these questions: when is it okay that a state create blockades that effectively starve large parts of another state's population? Is it okay simply because it is Isreal doing it?"

It seems alright to Israel critics when Jordan, Egypt, and Sudan do it.

David: "If Hamas wants to govern and do good by its citizens they have NOTHING to gain by lobbing rockets into Israel every single day."

Not to mention that, if they can smuggle weapons, they can probably smuggle the food and medicine they complain they lack.

Muckle: "It is surely a fantasy to think that retaliating in kind to bullies brings an end to it."

Yeah, that Fourth Reich's a real pain in the ass right now.

dangovich: "You neglected to mention that Israel also has an obligation: stop expanding West Bank settlements."

I'm sure it would, if the other side respected the original territory in the first place.

Teacher: "Just because Hamas exploits the civilians Israel kills doesn't mean they aim for them to die or are anywhere near as culpable for their deaths as the Israelis."

Um, yes it does. What part of jihad don't you understand?

"Same goes for the Israeli politicians using their own country's dead to justify their policies, which you acknowledge are probably self-defeating"

I'd imagine the difference is that Israel doesn't send people to blow up other people. [One of those suicide bombers was mentally deficient, too. Real noble of the other side.]

"Yes, and that's exactly why wars have to be totally justified and of last resort;"

So what justification is there for Hamas's war?

"Whether you think that choice is right or wrong, if they choose cluster bombs, knowing the high risk to civilians, you can't blame Hamas when those civilians are killed."

Does Hamas care about the risk of where its rockets land?

"If the SWAT team shows up, shoots at the bank with automatic weapons and little regard for the hostages, and kills several of them...in that case, whether or not I'm killed or brought to justice, one could reasonably ask whether they did the right thing. I'm still at least partially responsible, but that responsibility is shared."

Newsflash: SWAT Teams are not beat cops. They have to make decisions which aren't always pretty. And it's hard to snipe someone who uses a human shield at the last minute; so mistakes are expected. [Would Gulf War I be less justified because Saddam liked to play that trick with U.S. vets?]

That's the risk with that kind of work. Also, what if the robbers start shooting hostages just for the sake of it? Is it better to take them down as soon as possible, and avoid more losses? Or would it be more appropriate to call their bluff, and hope you can reason with them?

Philip: "We should not forget that Israel has forced 1.5 Million Palestinians to live in a ghetto no longer than a mile."

Israel didn't force them to live there. They didn't want to share a state with them, and left.

"As the great Bob Novak says often, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"."

Um, you're crediting a guy who enabled Bush's Iraq policies.

"It should be noted that in 1948 during the first Arab-Israeli war, Israel did terror attacks on Palestinian civilians where they were forced from their land, left in refugee camps, and living in squalor."

Those civilians didn't seem to have a problem when they were the ones committing pogroms on Jewish refugees.

"It should be noted that the bombs and weapons the Israelis are using to kill both "military" and civilian targets are given to them by the United States."

Yes, and Hamas gets its bombs and weapons from Syria. What's your point?

"The US gives more foreign aid to Israel than any other nation in the world."

Well, we buy a lot of oil from its neighbors next door; and yet they don't seem to have any spare change for the Palestinians, either.

"created a nation of exclusion,"

Israel accepts more Palestinian regulars than any other Arab nation.

"Israel is also to blame for the role in the Arab-Israeli conflicts. Israel has, if we look at the Arab point of view (which is no less right than the West's view), taken land from Palestinian people by force,"

Israel didn't start the conflict, and didn't even want the land in the first place. And the force it used was less than the sum used against it.

"refused to allow Palestinian people to come back to their home land"

Did the Palestinians allow Jews to come back to their homeland?

"and have used their hubris to illegally annex East Jerusalem and set up illegal settlements on further land that is not theirs."

So how much of the Arab territories weren't created through annexation and illegal settlements?

"And if I was Arabic and of an Arab nation I would want the liberation of the Palestinian people to their homeland and a vote, similar to South Africa, where the majority wins."

Funny that those Arab countries don't consider the Darfur refugees a majority.

"Not being Arab, I do see two things:
1 - with the end of the Soviet Union there is no reason to be any more friendly with Israel than the Arab people."

We were friendly with you during the Iran-Iraq war, and all you did was blow up people, planes, and ships.

"Another point is that when one is not equipped or given billions of dollars in aid and weapons, and are living in ghettos and squalor, one must revert to either terrorist attacks or guerilla warfare."

Arafat had billions of dollars in aid, and he didn't do a thing with it.

"Hamas, whether a pathetic organization or a group of freedom fighters, is doing what they only can do. "

Again, if they can smuggle bombs, why can't they smuggle food?

"The Palestinians will win the war on public relations and just like all people and all ethnic groups,"

If they want to win the war on public relations, they need to come off likable. That means working with others, not blowing them up.

"Palestinians are PALESTINIANS. They are not a people of another nation. Their land is the same land as the Israelis call their own."

They didn't want the land, though.

fishcake: "How the hell can you dismiss the deaths of 531 Palestinians, nearly all of them innocent civilians as some sort of collateral damage?"

I dunno. Ask them how they can dismiss the deaths they inflict as collateral damage.

"Hamas is the democratically elected government of the people of Gaza. They are defending their territory from a colonial aggressor."

It may be elected, but Hamas is doing a poor job of defending anyone except itself.

"Gaza is the new Warsaw ghetto"

Funny that the Nazi analogy is used on Palestinians, when the anti-Israel crowd probably wouldn't have even bothered standing up for Jews during the Holocaust, if comments like those of Ahmadinejad are any indication. And it's funny that when Saddam was massacring the Kurds, I never heard that analogy being used by the Arab side. They seemed to think it was his sovereign right to ethnically cleanse that group. Now they're going after Israel, because it exercises its own sovereign right to defend itself. Conflict of interest here?

comment #45

hunterd says ...

RE: Mr. Muckle

you are one of the most intelligent and perceptive people I have ever seen post on these boards. Please continue to raise the bar for discourse.

However, I must disagree with you on the matter of bullying. I was a tall, lanky, glasses wearing kid with K-Mart brand clothing during high school. I seemed like an easy mark for bullies, and I was picked on a lot. But I stood up for myself every time. And eventually, when a kid called me a "kike" in a situation where it moved past simple childish teasing...well, I decked him. He went 90 degrees, like Brad Pitt in Snatch. Allegedly, he had a slight seizure afterward. I got suspended for 2 days because of the LAUSD zero tolerance policy, but neither he, nor any of his shithead little friends ever came near me again and I enjoyed the status of a mild folk hero for a few weeks.

Granted, actions like this most certainly do not work on a nation to nation level, but on a schoolyard, you can definitely stop a bully.

comment #46

D.Z. says ...

Philip: "Also, any democracy that elects one of the Middle East's biggest mass murders like Ariel Sharon is suspect,"

So Hamas and Arafat aren't mass-murderers?

"The Arab people, which DavidF seems to think have not been screwed, were owned by the Europeans and Turks illegally for years, had their land subdivided, and had resources and artifacts stolen."

Yes, because they were so much nicer to the African people they occupied.

Chicago: "Funny how the American people are down on welfare recipients in THIS country, but don't mind welfare country recipients like Israel."

Speaking of welfare, shouldn't you be asking Arafat's family for the money he stole?

comment #47

DavidF says ...

Well, congrats to Fishcake for invoking Godwin's Law. His florid language - as if the existence of blood proves that Hamas is right - and use of terms like "colonial agressor" show he's really got a grip on reality.

The way he just glosses over the fact that Hamas wants to erase Israel from existence is almost amusing - after all, they were elected! So, I should be assured by the fact that most people in Gaza feel the same! Yeah, real future for peace there.

Anyway, I've seen enough of these threads to know when to bow out and let the idealogues go at it. When DZ is the voice of reason, it's a good clue.

comment #48

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

D.Z.the thread killer strikes again!

comment #49

PCP_Patriots says ...

It may be tomorrow or it may be 1,000 years fom now, but Palestine will be liberated and free from the tyranny of Israel and their Zionist racist pogrom.

Jimmy Carter is right!

comment #50

PCP_Patriots says ...

Note: the Arab perspective of all this (which no more right or wrong than the West's) is that their should not have been a two state solution because the land was stolen from them. The only solution is to have a free election of all the people like what happened in South Africa.

Of course, however, this won't happen because Israel is a racist state who bombs their enemies and claims it is doing it against terrorists. Well, those terrorists are freedom fighters to the Arabs. And that is a very legit argument.

comment #51

PCP_Patriots says ...

DavidF, there will never be a peace until Israel allows the refugees to ALL return and vote freely in elections there. The Palestinians aren't going anywhere PERIOD.

comment #52

hunterd says ...

DeafBrownTrashPunk

You are terrible at rhetoric and discourse. You control the conversation with what terms you allow to be used. You seem to get this based upon your use of "murder" to refer to what others might call "collateral damage." Murder implies motive. Murder implies villainy. Murder implies a specific moral compass.

You're wrong, but you're being clever about how you tilt the image in your favor.

But then you go and say something totally sub-mental like, "Let's see, more than 500 Palestinians have been murdered in less than one week, while less than 100 Israelis are dead." and screw it all up. You can't use both your more subtly assaulting terms and their more logical counterparts in the same sentence. It exposes your bias beyond any doubt and makes you look like a fool, even to those who might agree with you.

Furthermore, Israel sent out information to civilians notifying them of impending attacks and telling the locals to move to another area before any invasion occurred. And while this is not exactly a morally flawless strategy, it is certainly not what you would like to portray it as.

comment #53

PCP_Patriots says ...

Let's se, the Israeli's sent out papers saying for Palestinians to move because their neighborhoods may be boomed. Hmmm, okay, when you are poor, live in a ghetto that is on square mile, and are asked to beware of bombs and move ... sounds like Israel's poor excuse for public relations.

comment #54

D.Z. says ...

Philip: "Note: the Arab perspective of all this (which no more right or wrong than the West's) is that their should not have been a two state solution because the land was stolen from them."

So how much of the land which they stole from Kurds and Armenians are they willing to return?

"Of course, however, this won't happen because Israel is a racist state who bombs their enemies and claims it is doing it against terrorists."

Yes, the other side can't possibly be racist.

"Well, those terrorists are freedom fighters to the Arabs. And that is a very legit argument."

I'm not sure how treating women like cattle, to the point that they get stoned for being raped, is a form of freedom.

"Let's se, the Israeli's sent out papers saying for Palestinians to move because their neighborhoods may be boomed. Hmmm, okay, when you are poor, live in a ghetto that is on square mile, and are asked to beware of bombs and move ..."

They also use loudspeakers.

comment #55

DavidF says ...

Wow, Philip - it's amazing it took so long for you to show your true colours. Living proof that anti-Zionism is always merely a cloak for anti-Semitism. Thanks for that.

Too bad they didn't have the Internet in 1938 or you could play devil's advocate, not taking sides but carefully explaining to us that the German perspective (which is no more right or wrong than the West's!) is that Jews are diseased vermin and, really, they should get out of Europe in a dignified manner lest we have to take extreme measures before they infect our womenfolk and drink all our children's blood.

Clearly your solution (can I call it your FINAL Solution?) is for there to be 22 Arab states and no Jewish state (oh, sorry, no ZIONIST state). Since that will never happen - since no government would ever agree to a 100% right of "refugee" return - no peace can ever occur in your scenario.

Luckily, however, you're views are generally regarded as on the fringe and, despite what is now going on, hope does remain for those on both sides willing to make tough concessions. A 100% return will not be one of those, neither will Israel holding on to 100% of the West Bank.

Since you believe in relative morality and don't think they're terrorists or really too bad at all I think you should go live in Gaza or perhaps Syria for a few years. I'm sure they'll only be too happy to know there are New Hampshirians like yourself who buy the shit they're selling.

Ability to navigate underground smuggling tunnels will help on your visa application and so long as you're not Jewish, gay, Christian, a lberal Muslim or otherwise too different you should fit in just fine, so good luck with that.

Yeesh. Really.

comment #56

hunterd says ...

Re: Teacher's Pet

Touche. You make a very valid point regarding the reasons for the proximity of weapons to civilians in Gaza. However, what of the occasions where the Govt. uses money to build civilian housing, schools, mosques, ect. after the military is in place?

It's not that shocking and it's not new. Again, the Geneva Convention already covers this. It would not do so I such actions were without historical precedence.

Also, DavidF very eloquently explains some flaws in that thinking.

RE: Justthisguy

“I'm pretty sure that Mossad could have all of Hamas' leaders dead in their sleep with zero collateral damage if they wanted to, but instead they've opted to take the most openly destructive path available to them.”

Mossad DOES do this, when they can. And then they report on it. Happens 2, 3 times a year. Clearly they can’t get all the higher ups in one fell swoop, or else they already would have. And then they would have loudly gloated about it as a sign of strength.

“We should not forget that Israel has forced 1.5 Million Palestinians to live in a ghetto no longer than a mile.”

RE: Phillip_of_New_Hampshire

We shouldn’t forget this, because we shouldn’t “know” this, because that’s not what happened.

“Israel has, if we look at the Arab point of view (which is no less right than the West's view), taken land from Palestinian people by force, created a nation of exclusion, refused to allow Palestinian people to come back to their home land and have used their hubris to illegally annex East Jerusalem and set up illegal settlements on further land that is not theirs.”

Okay, wanna give you house to a native American? You’re living on land that was forcibly taken too.

“Another point is that when one is not equipped or given billions of dollars in aid and weapons, and are living in ghettos and squalor, one must revert to either terrorist attacks or guerilla warfare.”

True…except that the terrorist factions are clearly well funded by, amongst others, Syria.

“The Arab point of view states Israel is by far not a true democracy and Jimmy Carter states the same.”
Yes. Israel is a theocracy. Theocratic governments can never have truly free elections. A Palestinian state would not solve this for anyone. Nor would giving all Palestinians the vote in Israel. It would just mean more of the same theocratic crap.

“The Arab people, which DavidF seems to think have not been screwed, were owned by the Europeans and Turks illegally for years, had their land subdivided, and had resources and artifacts stolen.”

More evidence that you should give your home to a Native American. And even if you are European, the point still stands as you are advocating giving away other people’s homes.

RE: fishcakeboy

I am apphalled, by the use of human shields and the disregard for the third and forth articles of the Geneva Convention. But the fact that these people are dead and dying in the most horrible, unnecessary ways possible does not mean that Israel is doing it, or solely guilty of it.

Your entire post is one giant logical fallacy designed to shut down critical thinking and make one FEEL your point, rather than think it through to the logical end.

“I disagree with Hamas rhetoric and ideaology [SIC] that seeks the total destruction of the State of Israel, but there is absolutely no way in hell you can justify the Israli [SIC] incursion into Gaza.”

Uhh, how about fighting back against a government that was elected under the pretense of the total destruction of the state of Israel?

As for the whole bank robbery scenario, we need not discuss it. It is a trap. Equivocation. We can never know the specifics, and thus we can spin it to mean anything at all that we want. You can also easily hide a tilt in the argument in such a metaphor.

The only real solution is to stop treating stupid beliefs as if they made sense. Take the kid gloves off and treat both sides with contempt for running states predicated upon magic and witchcraft and 4000-year old books of folklore.

Don’t believe me? Then chew on this. If Israel offered a peace treaty tomorrow wherein the Palestinian people could have every single inch of Israeli land, with all the buildings, infrastructure and wealth fully intact, under the sole condition that Jerusalem remained under Jewish control. Do you think Hamas would agree? And vice versa. Israel could have Gaza, and Golahan Heights and even Jordon. All totally untouched, so long as Muslims retain ownership of Jerusalem.

It would never happen.

It’s a war over Jerusalem. And neither side will budge on that.

comment #57

hunterd says ...

New_Hampshire

"Let's se, the Israeli's sent out papers saying for Palestinians to move because their neighborhoods may be boomed. Hmmm, okay, when you are poor, live in a ghetto that is on square mile, and are asked to beware of bombs and move ... sounds like Israel's poor excuse for public relations. "

You do know that giving away military positioning and plans is generally not worth the publicity...right?

comment #58

D.Z. says ...

hunter: "And even if you are European, the point still stands as you are advocating giving away other people’s homes."

Actually, Europeans should be the last people on earth condemning Israel, when they looked the other way on Milosevic and Rwanda.

comment #59

PCP_Patriots says ...

It is typical of right wing nuts to immediately call someone who disagrees with the Israeli government and zionism as an anti-semite. As usual the right wing facist people come out ripping other view points as some sort of anti-semetic bigoty. Pathetic! And it is a proof that these right wing nuts are themselves racists since they not only rip muslms by calling them women-haters and theives of Kurdish and Armenian lands (ah, hello, the UN, the European colonial powers and nations like Iran, the Soviet Union, and Turkey are at fault there), but they also correspond dysporia Jews as the same thing as Israeli and the Israeli government when dysporia Jews are not Israelis and are no different than German-Americans, Irish-Americans and so forth. The only thing in common is maybe DNA and nothing more because non-Israeli Jews are Jewish-Americans, Jewish-French and so forth, not Israeli Rosanne Barr, herself a Jewish-American, has made a statement on her website denouncing Israel, the Israeli government and their bombing of Gaza.

Palestine will one day be free;. I know it hurts you rght wing folks to hear such a thing but what would one expect from a group of facists who group all Jews as the same (and somehow linked to Israel), never mind doing their usual nonsense by calling someone a racist or some other horrible term just because they are scared of the the persons viewpoint. This shows their true colors and their bigotry of not only Palestinians, but Muslims, Jews, and Arabs as well. Pathetic.

comment #60

PCP_Patriots says ...

I must state that DavidF is quite a character. It appears in his warped and diseased mind that there is only one side and that is Israel is right. As most tyical right wing nuts, he immediately comes out and says the Syrian people and Muslims are all but garbage. If there was ever a bigot or someone who would cooperate with Himmler, Heydrich, and Mueller, it would be a guy like DavidF. He may be an Israeli sympathizer, but he definately is the type that would most likely mass murder folks that not only are different politically than him, but also those of different faiths, heritage, and language. I could see him as a Chinese partisan murdering Tibetans, never mind his indifference to Palestinians and their plight, and his racist remarks against the levantine Syrian people, people just like the rest of us just trying to live a life in their own country. But to DavidF, they obviously are not only some sort of sub-lifeform, but their religion appears to be barbaric to him.

He's a typical facist, someone not much unlike a skinhead. Disgusting.

comment #61

DavidF says ...

Whatever, dude. Quelle insane rant!
In my experience people who delight in comparing Israel to Nazis are anti-Semites. You describe what is happening in Gaza as a "racist pogrom," which is wrong on both counts and, in attempting to oh-so-ironically link to the Holocaust, also anti-Semitic in my book.

Equivocate all you want. Maybe one of your best friends is Jewish? Good for you.

Your inability to articulate the difference between Jews (culturally and religiously) and Israelis is stunning in its incomprehensibility, as is dragging in Rosanne Barr.

She's Jewish but anti-Israel? Is that your point?
Fine - can you name a single prominent Muslim or Arab who has condemned Hamas' repeated firing of rockets?

Jewish organizations critical of Israel are a dime a dozen - starting with parties currently in the government. Why don't you name me some prominent Muslims/Arabs who are critical of Yassir Arafat, Hamas, Hezbollah, the 9/11 hijackers or any of your other pals?

Yeah, I'm a real right winger. You know me sooo well. Say "facist" one more time and maybe it will be true.

Thanks for teaching us that Muslims are a race, and that "dysporia" is a word. Keep waiting on that "Free Palestine" thing, brutha. In the meantime, go watch a movie. Right, all?

comment #62

PCP_Patriots says ...

By the way, the Arab perspective? What does it mean? What it happens to be is a perspective that is as legit as any other perspective. It is a perspective that believes that the Palestinian nation was taken away by Turkish, French, British, and then the UN and given away to an immigrant population (founded as a term called Zionism) but in the Arab view, taken away unjustly by imperialist powers. As a result, the solution of a two state solution was from the beginning illegal to them.

Now whether you agree with that perspective, are a racist pig against Arabs or Muslims, or simply disagree cordially, the fact is, this is a perspective with some foundation. You may not like it, but there are over 300 million Arabs, 1 Billion muslims, and millions of Europeans who think is a fair opinon and perspective.

Obviously racist pigs like DavidF can't see this and immediately call all Arabs and Muslims as sub-human, but I figure the rest of you folks are able to debate cordially without showing right wing antics of racism.

comment #63

DavidF says ...

Also - having just read your new post. Fuck you, man. I didn't say any of the things you attribute to me and, aside from you, most of this discussion has taken place without ad hominem attacks or other hysteria.

You are the personification of the worst of the Internet. You're a real psycho fucker and while I'm a lover, not a fighter, I'd happily drive a day to kick the shit out of you, Canadian facist that I am. I'm done feeding you troll ass and I imagine most people here can see you for who you are. Have a good one.

comment #64

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

DavidF, I'm ambivalent on a lot of this stuff and am not sold on many of your substantive points.

But I'm right there with you on your last post!

comment #65

PCP_Patriots says ...

DavidF is obviously an anti-semite. HIs discussion of cultural Jews versus religious Jews shows his ignorance of the faith, the culture, and the people. His continual mix-and-match of the dysporia Jews with Israelis and then on top of it, with the Israeli government and their policies, shows how he just groups an entire people no matter what their nationality is. It is a shame there are still people in this world like him. One day maybe he will get sensitivity training, respect other cultures,understand the differences between nationalities and heritage, and also respect other peoples view points without showing right wing and facist traits.

comment #66

D.Z. says ...

Philip: "It is typical of right wing nuts to immediately call someone who disagrees with the Israeli government and zionism as an anti-semite."

I'll still take those right-wing nuts over the ones in the Martyr Brigades.

"And it is a proof that these right wing nuts are themselves racists since they not only rip muslms by calling them women-haters"

So that Bhutto assassination thing is just a coincidence?

"and theives of Kurdish and Armenian lands (ah, hello, the UN, the European colonial powers and nations like Iran, the Soviet Union, and Turkey are at fault there)"

So why is it you can attribute various factors to why the Kurds and Armenians are the way they are, but you solely blame Israel for the problems of the Palestinians?

"but they also correspond dysporia Jews as the same thing as Israeli and the Israeli government when dysporia Jews are not Israelis and are no different than German-Americans, Irish-Americans and so forth."

Well, many former diaspora did found Israel...

"not Israeli Rosanne Barr, herself a Jewish-American, has made a statement on her website denouncing Israel, the Israeli government and their bombing of Gaza."

Actually, she's half-Jewish on her father's side, so...

"Palestine will one day be free;"

It was already free when you gave it away.

"and his racist remarks against the levantine Syrian people,."

Yeah, their assassination of a Lebanese leader was misunderstood.

"By the way, the Arab perspective? What does it mean? What it happens to be is a perspective that is as legit as any other perspective. It is a perspective that believes that the Palestinian nation was taken away by Turkish, French, British, and then the UN and given away to an immigrant population"

And Arabs aren't an immigrant population?

comment #67

PCP_Patriots says ...

NotImpressed1Yet, you are all right in my book. Obviously some folks may get heated in a debate. I mean, whether you support either Israel, Palestinians, or both in some ways, it is an unfortunate situation where many people over the years on both sides have died in unfortunate ways. DavidF seems to want to call me some names and use profanities, obviously he has a harsh temper. I myself can say I wish him well and have nothing against him or his view points. His name calling and profanities were unfortunate but no big deal. I'm just pointing out the other perspective, the Arab and European perspective on the matter, but that itself does not make anyone "the worst" of the internet. The worst of the internet is profanities, slander, and general irrationality that comes in insane rants.

But in this case, in this argument, I figure it is a dicey topic and as a result no one is really at fault and the things said by folks like DavidF are just someone speaking passionately (though a bit harshly) on a "hot" topic.

comment #68

PCP_Patriots says ...

D.Z., come on, don't blame all muslims and pakistanis for the murder of bhutto. It was just a few nuts. And Syrian people are not responsible for the murder or Lebanon's president. The government of Syria, possibly, but don't blame the entire Syrian people. Are all Chinese guilty for the Tibetan situation? Of course not,it is their govenment.

Whether you dislike the muslim faith or not, fine, but to characterize it or the whole faith a women haters and so forth is a bit too harsh. Their faith deserves as much respect as anyone elses. Are their radicals in it? sure, but not all are. They are just people trying to raise families like anyone else. What you got to rip is the goverments and policies,not the people or their religion.

comment #69

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

Hey Phil, you seem like a jackass and an intellectual cripple, and DavidF handled himself as well as anyone reasonably could given some of the incredibly stupid shit you were shouting.

comment #70

PCP_Patriots says ...

NotImpresed1Yet, hey, I won't take anything you say personally. The issue of debating a topic that is not popular (i.e. the Arab perspective) doesn't amount to being anti-semetic so when a person starts spouting off such things as in post 55, then one definately needs to take a deep breather. I figure you should as well if you think that post was a good handle of a debate. Take lessons from DZ, he/she has posted pretty good debating points from the Israeli perspective on a very touchy subject.

comment #71

DavidF says ...

I'm not biting on any of Phil's insanity but, reading back, I think he got some of my comments confused with things DZ said.

It's about the only explantion for saying I compared Muslims to garbage, was talking about ALL Muslims or ALL Syrians or whatever and some of the other random accusations. I can forgive some things, but not confusing me with DZ. Yeah, we should all take debating lessons from DZ - that attitude will win you points on these boards.
You're on the black list, buddy (No offence, DZ)!

I also won't address his feelings that I would be well-suited to helping various murderous regimes except to say I was a bit worried he would say he lives nearby, daring me to follow up on kicking his ass. Thus, it's nice to know he's a bit scared of what a bad-ass I am.

I get the sense that NotImpressedYet isn't necessarily eager to be "alright in his book," but that shouldn't let Phil stop his efforts to Live Free or Die. Keep the faith, man.

comment #72

PCP_Patriots says ...

DavidF, you can say that your post #55 was probably set me off in my own heated tirade (again this is a heated topic). So though I didn't appreciate those comments since I am only arguing one perspective and not denouncing any people or religion, just one nation's policy, I am apologizing for calling you anything prior to that since it was simply a heated reaction by me from your post #55.

Besides post 55, your other posts on your points are fair and valid perspectives even if they are only a perspective or opinion.

comment #73

D.Z. says ...

Philip: Well, hell, if it's only a few bad apples on their side, then why don't they show that same attitude to people on the pro-Israel side?

comment #74

DavidF says ...

Anything pre #55 you take back? So, I'm still a right wing nut, facist, a (Jewish, by the way) anti-semite, a racist pig and I have a warped and diseased mind? I could still be a Chinese soldier killing Tibetans or perhaps a skinhead?

With such an apology, how can I say no? Are we still friends, you tool?

Is it me or hasn't Phil said enough to get banned at this point? I'm going to sleep. Rant on.

comment #75

simone.lives.in.canada says ...

Okay, so DavidF seems to have gone overboard on #55 post and Philip in response seems to have gone overboard on his responses to it, but it was good of Philip to apologize and also how an olive branch (hello, Middle East, learn lessons from David and Philip). Now for DZ, I'm worried there may not be hope for him, but I'll have faith. For NotImpressed1Yet, he is just a jerk. He hasn't said anything of value and to be honest he's the biggest jackass of them all. Disappear, Mr. NotImpressed, because am not impessed with you one bit, you jerk!

comment #76

PCP_Patriots says ...

simone, you spoke too fast,it appears DavidF likes calling me those things in #55, but doesn't expect any reaction back. Well, no big deal. As stated anything I called him after his #55 post, I take back since the only issue I had with him was his #55 post which was pretty much what it was: someone not liking another perspective. He said it in a passionate moment and I'll at this point will let it roll off my back and be a big enough man to apologize for responding accordingly as he had to me in post #55.

comment #77

simone.lives.in.canada says ...

Okay, I just reread everything here and it seems everything was very civil with good points on all sides UNTIL DavidF started calling people names in that #55 post. Right there and then, that was the problem. So though others after, including the jackass NotImpressed, said stupid stuff, the foolishness started with that post #55 that DavidF did. Philip had the guts to apologize so DavidF should too unless he is too scared or a typical blogger hiding behind his username and not big enough to apologize for his beginning the whole thing and for what he said in #55 (plus his profanities afterwards too).

Good for you Philip.

comment #78

PCP_Patriots says ...

Thanks Simone. It appears the perspective that I was arguing (i.e. the Palestinian people and their rights) isn't all too popular here. My perspective happens to be against the Israeli policy in Gaza, and the rights of the Palestinians. Now if DavidF wants to post 55, again, I pretty much will say he was just being passionate and I will not take it personally. Anything I said after that was a reaction to his post and was not called for by me so I am apologizing for it. Either way, everything here is just a perspective and nothing more. This is a debate and not something where if you do not agree with the other perspective, the other person just disagrees with you; they aren't an anti-semite or someone who does not dislike Arabs either.

This is definately not the typcial movie post and stories on Jeff's site, so it is not surprising the "passion and anger" that has happened.

comment #79

tiger says ...

Of course, rocket attacks doesn't please any civilized person. But we have to keep things in perspective. The rocket attacks from Gaza have killed less than 20 people in this decade. Each of these deaths are tragic, but to compare these numbers the scale of the slaughter in Gaza is indecent. And this is crucial: there were no rocket fatalities during the cease fire. Israel, however, killed six Hamas militants on 4 November for no good reason, when everyone's attention was on the US elections. The rocket fire danger in Sderot, Ashdod etc. is comparable to the danger any New Yorker runs of being robbed.

I do not approve of the rocket attacks. But I do not think that anyone is under a moral obligation to lie down and die. If you were in Gaza, you'd be firing rockets too, guaranteed. One way to end them is dialogue, and ending the heartless blockade that's strangled Gaza for ages.

comment #80

D.Z. says ...

Seriously, anyone who thinks those rocket attacks are nothing should offer to take anyone's place there. No one thought that Mumbai assault was "nothing", and the death count there wasn't significantly higher than the one in Israel. And I think most people would rather be robbed, NYC-style, than blown up. As for Gaza, they fire rockets anyway. That's why no other Arab country wants to deal with their bs, either.

comment #81

DavidF says ...

Firstly, perhaps he typed it wrong but, in #72, Philip says he is only apologizing for stuff PRIOR to #55. If he meant AFTER, that it is a different matter.

Everyone is entitled to their perspective - to a point - and, yes, these kinds of discussions get heated.

What did I say in #55? I said that anti-Zionism is typically a shield for anti-Semitism which is, I think we can agree, an irrational, exceptional hatred for Jews. I think someone who uses a word like "pogrom" to describe Israeli actions is demonstrating just that; attempting to co-op Jewish history to show how the persecuted have been brought low.

He called Israel a "racist state" while implying that Hamas - one of the more exclusionary, xenophobic, self-interested, violent governments on earth - could be regarded, from a certain point of view as merely freedom fighters.

So, you can see all his statements on Israel are absolute - they are RACISTS. But we shouldn't criticize Hamas without taking a minute to get their point of view. Israel, has no right to self defence, in Philip's descriptions. They attack Arabs because they hate Arabs who. presumably, mean them no particular harm. That's not a double standard?

I made no other ad hominem assertions as Philip most certainly demonstrated a healthy moral relativism. I merely repeated what he said - that there will be no peace until the refugees return which is, by definition, the end of Israel. Thus, logically, the end of Israel as a Jewish state is the pre-requisite for peace in Philip's view. That's also not a pro-Jewish point of view.

Simone - I didn't call anyone "names." I said I think that terminology is anti-Semitic. Nothing I said was deserving of the vitriol Philip unleashed afterwards. And I'm one of the few here NOT hiding behind a username, so give me a break.

BUT, this being a passionate topic, If Philip feels the anti-Semitic accusation is a bit much, well, I'll apologize in the interests of world peace even if his response was way, way, way over the top.

I never criticized ALL Syrians or all Arabs or anything along those lines. I did say that those countries (ie those governments) are not open societies the way Israel is. I'd rather be an Arab Israeli than a Syrian Jew and trust me, so would you. The only extent to which that reflects upon "all Syrians" is that its government indoctrinates those attitudes; but it is certainly not inherent or racial and I never implied such, despite your vehement accusations.

I have no problems with legitimate criticisms of the Israeli government and, Philip, I have ZERO problem acknowleding the rights of civilian Palestinians or the Arab point-of-view, which I agree with on some counts and disagree with on many more.
Without doubt, one can criticize Israel failry and without being a Jew-hater, but when one disproportionately focuses on Israel to the exclusion of other countries, one is demonstrating veiled anti-Semitism, IMHO.

comment #82

Howlingman says ...

Don't run yourself ragged apologizing, DavidF -- I have the sneaking suspicion that "Philip of New Hampshire" and "Simone lives in Canada" are the same person, neither of whom seem to have shown up on HE before this post from Jeff.

comment #83

NotImpressed1Yet says ...

"Philip of New Hampshire" and "Simone lives in Canada" are definitely the same person - probably a 16 year old kid who got outmatched in an argument and then went a little crazy.

comment #84

PCP_Patriots says ...

Actually Howlingman, I have post prior and in the past on the board and also prior to the posting board have had my emails to Jeff posted on the board by Jeff himself on subjects.

Either way, the point in post #55 wasn't simply being called anti-semetic, but also called someone that would support a 1938 government in Germany, never mind being stated my "true colors" are exposed. Those items are pretty brash statements and way out of line; which itself is enough to cause an angry reaction out of anyone on the other end of those comments.

In the honest truth, a person who disagrees with a policy of a government does not mean they hate the people of that country, and if believing anti-zionism is anti-semetic, which is the perspective the Arabs is a racist philosophy, then I guess I would consider myself in good company since Jimmy Carter wrote a fine book on the subject.

The point is, we have millions (4 million people) who do not have a home state and live in terrible conditions as a result. The UN itself has passed bills stating full withdrawal of Israel from the 1967 borders, and the repatrioting of refugees. If Arabs want to support the Palestinians, this is simply their perspective and that blood is definately thicker than water.

Either way, I am not here to have a pissing match but simply to debate. And debating an unpopular WESTERN view is not a bad thing at all.

On your accusation of being the same person as another poster, that's just a bizarre post by you.

All in all, I stated it prior, I apologize for defending myself after getting angry with the accusations on post #55 by DavidF, and whether I agree or disagree with his points before post #55, they are valid perspectives and opinions.

I gather the most heated thing about all this is that what is happening now is war and civilians are dying, no matter who is at fault or is it to cause (or whether both sides are at fault or not).

comment #85

DavidF says ...

Clearly, English is not a first language for either, so I don't want to be too judgemental. I mean, Philip called an entire country racist and then tried to take the moral high ground with his, "Oh, this is a passionate topic, I won't begrudge other people their strong feelings."

The discussion here really was admirably restrained until he (they?) got involved. All's well that ends well.

comment #86

PCP_Patriots says ...

Obviously, DavidF will continue his belligerence and various accusations. Fair enough. No bother for him to see that the whole topic is more than just what has happened these past 2 weeks but also 42 years of occupation of Arab land and segregation of Palestinians to ghettos and camps. Again, no matter what I say, he will come back with attacks saying I'm an anti-semite, or two people, or someone who doesn't speak English as a first language, or a 1938 supporter of German, or something else.

That's what usually happens when people disagree with folks like him; they get shut down by being called names and irrelevent nonsense.

I'll take the high road though and state that none of it is personal and though he is out of line, I respect his viewpoints even if they are not everyones.

comment #87

D.Z. says ...

If it's not anti-Semitism, why are there suddenly hate crimes against European Jews who don't even live in Israel?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_eu/eu_europe_gaza_jews_attacked

comment #88

PCP_Patriots says ...

I agree with DZ in post 87. Whatever is happening outside of Gaza/Israel to folks are hate crimes.

comment #89

Yuval says ...

Philip_of_New_Hampshire - you seem to want to take the high road, while calling for the destruction of a country. The children and grand-chlildren of Palestenians that left Israel in 1948 will not be shipped back to Israel. The fact that the you continue to perpetuate this fantasy by writing things like: "It may be tomorrow or it may be 1,000 years fom now, but Palestine will be liberated and free from the tyranny of Israel and their Zionist racist pogrom." proves that much like Hamas you do not want peace in your lifetime and prosperity to both Israel and Palestine side by side. You want war, you want jews kicked out of their homes in Israel, you want to do to the Isrealis what you think the Israelis did to the paletinians in 48. You don't want the wall down, or the killing stopped, or a working economy, or children with a future.
If you care so much about UN resolutions, you should be all for 2 countries living side by side.
" free vote of all people, Muslim or Jew, similar to South Africa." - since you imply that this is not the curent situation, you are either ignorant or a liar. Your statements are not taking the high road, and they are not opinions, they are the tools of violence that has been going on for much more than 42 years.

comment #90

PCP_Patriots says ...

Actually the quote about tomorrow or a 1000 years is from Spielberg's Munich. Not my quote. But it was appropriate for the conversation and debate.

My argument is that of Jimmy Carter's, one vote all the people.

Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid by Jimmy Carter

comment #91

Yuval says ...

Appropriate how exactly?

"My argument is that of Jimmy Carter's, one vote all the people." - That is the current situation in Israel, one for all the people. Educate yourself on the matter.

comment #92

PCP_Patriots says ...

Jimmy Carter's point is to repatriot all the palestinians and then have a vote as they did in South Africa.

This isn't too hard to understand. Please read the book and then debate Jimmy Carter's arguments.

comment #93

Yuval says ...

Really???
Then how exactly do you explain his interview here- http://tinyurl.com/8k3t8c - where he says "The book is about Palestine, the occupied territories, and not about Israel.". Did you read it? If you did, read it again.

comment #94

Yuval says ...

And I'm still anxious to hear how the quote from Munich was appropriate for your point.

comment #95

PCP_Patriots says ...

His definition of Palestine is both the occupied territories and Israel. With the repatrioting of all Palestinians to Israel, there then should be a vote. Again, read the entire book from page 1 to the end.

You can go to Netflix and watch Steven Speilberg's Munich. It is a good film.

comment #96

Yuval says ...

Really???
Then what did he mean when he said "and not about Israel". I would like a quote exaplaining the logic of this discreprency. You seem to be so familiar with the book you shouldn't have a problem with it.
Then explain what you mean by "as they did in South Africa.". Since every citizen in Israel already has 1 vote (Jewish, Christians, Muslims and others) how is the situation similar to South Africa?
Then you can go fuck yourself. (that doesn't really have anything to do with what we're talking about here, but it's a quote from Anchorman, a much better film than Munich)

comment #97

PCP_Patriots says ...

Nothing more has to be stated based off your last comment.

comment #98

Yuval says ...

I actually though it was much less offensive than your comment about a 1000 years war but I guess some people consider "fuck yourself" to be less courteous. Either way, it has more relevance to my actual point that you don’t know what you’re talking about.

comment #99

PCP_Patriots says ...

The Munich movie and the quote explains the point when you watch it. Go see it ... until then:

Du er den laveste formen av liv og skal selvmord fordi det vil lage verdenen et bedre sted.

comment #100

Yuval says ...

I saw Munich, I think it's pretty bad, at least as a political statement, but its POINT is clearly that violence isn't the way to go, it doesn't agree with the idea of a 1000 years war. And even if you do, it doesn't help your point here. Watch it again.
I'm still waiting for a quote from Carter's book that will explain how it is not about Israel, but actually doesn't think Israel should exist as Zionist being.
And South Africa? How is bringing back all the refugees from 60 years ago, their children and grandchildren the same as South Africa? Does the answer hide in your interpretation of Munich?

comment #101

hunterd says ...

Munich was a piece of crappy moral equivocation that didn't look very deeply into its' subject. Waltz With Bashir is a much better film dealing with similar tensions.

Also, as for giving Palestinians the vote...you do realize that they fled from Israel on the eve of its' founding so that 5 surrounding nations could attack it on independence day...right?

That's an act of treason. Really, that's a hanging offense. The lack of voting rights actually makes perfect sense.

Of course, the fact that the people are so poorly educated that they will elect HAMAS (who, to their credit technically ran on the platform of creating sewer systems and better irrigation, and left the "kill all jews" bit until AFTER the election) gives you an idea of what kind of state Israel would turn into. Everyone would be pushed to the right and it would be catastrophic. Even if Phillip's point had and logical basis, it still lacks a realistic method of implementation.

comment #102

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