comment #1

thevisceral says ...

The Searchers sucks.

comment #2

solus says ...

most songwriters are rarely as clever as their lyrics...

comment #3

Jeffrey Wells says ...

Wells to The Visceral: That's a little too visceral, man. Either stand up like a man and explain why The Searchers sucks or don't post what you did. Put a little effort into it. I won't have the HE talkbacks provide a form for three-word drive-by shootings.

comment #4

R. Hunt says ...

I think you're reading a bit too much into what was essentially an aside. For all we know, he might have gone on to say "of course, that's only if you overlook the Irish clannishness, the boozy sentimentality, etc..." But does liking John Ford (also a favorite of Springsteen) automatically make Dylan a cultural conservative? Last I heard, he was reading James Joyce and listening to Billie Joe Shaver...

comment #5

George Prager says ...

I think Dylan was indulging in some old-fashioned nostalgia. For an old Jewish guy who has seen it all (including the best and worst that Woodstock had to offer), Ford's movies are probably comfort food.

comment #6

George Prager says ...

But that Douglas Brinkley is a bit of a blowhard, isn't he?

comment #7

renorambler says ...

On the face of it it does seem like a bit of a shallow read of Ford's films. I'm willing to give Dylan a bit more credit though. It feels like this article was set up to work as a portrait of Dylan as American Musician and cultural elder statesman. Any quote that helped to further the writer's goal was probably used.

Much as I like a number of Ford's films, Stagecoach is the one I always find myself going back to. It's hokey in places but it's still comfort food. And I like watching John Wayne before he really became JOHN WAYNE.

comment #8

shawn says ...

Am I alone in thinking that "Wagonmaster" is something like a perfect film? Also: "My Darling Clementine": Victor Mature reciting Shakespeare FTW!

comment #9

bondjamesbond says ...

Part of Dylan's "craft" has been to write and do and say stuff in a way that just makes you go "what the frak?!" "Building a mystery," in other words, as Sarah McLachlan might say. So it doesn't surprise me that the personality itself is basically empty and dull. Why would it surprise you, JW?

As a songwriter, he came up with some incredible combinations of melody and lyric (generally in the 60s, and the Byrds covered most of them best), but most of us know that's largely a matter of opening yourself up and channelling something. And even some otherwise stunning lyrics like the one you quoted ("the ghost of electricity howls in the bones of her face") make you wonder what the hell does that mean. It's the magnetism of "creative ambiguity" that keeps you interested for a while.

Maybe Dylan gets tired of himself in that regard and appreciates someone as straightforward and blunt as Ford appeared to be. In that case, he would certainly have no interest in digging into Ford's own ambiguities.

comment #10

lazespud says ...

I agree with Wells and Thompson; I think, on par, Ford was one of our greatest directors, but a whole lot of the content of his films is just plain bad in retrospect. I love the Grapes of Wrath as much at the next guy, but the insufferable Ma Joad just makes me gag each time I see it. And How Green Was My Valley is a piece of shit (at least compared to the other great films of that year).

And I love the Searchers. Doesn't suck.

comment #11

Markj74 says ...

@thevisceral: Only an idiot would say The Searchers sucks.

comment #12

Deathtongue_Groupie says ...

In a perfect Star Trek episode, 60's Dylan meets Victoria's-Secret-shilling, John-Ford-praising present day Dylan... and never stops throwing up.

comment #13

John Cocktosten says ...

Dylan is a bullshitter; he exemplifies the idea that a little knowledge can be a bad thing for some people. I have always wondered why people hold him in such reverence. I agree with Lennon in that he is way overrated. The essential proof of his phoniness is in the Pennebaker documentary when the square-ish yet observant journalist finally asks Dylan, "do you even believe what you are saying" and Dylan gets really offended. It hit him pretty close to the mark.

comment #14

Jeremy Fassler says ...

If any of the movies nominated for best picture that year had to beat Citizen Kane, I'm sure glad it was How Green Was My Valley. Why people continue to give that movie such a bad reputation I'll never understand. And shut up with the whole Irish sentiment bullshit. I'm sick of that argument.

comment #15

jjgittes says ...

To John Cocktosten : Wait....John Lennon said Bob Dylan was overrated? Quote please. Are you sure he didn't say "Bob Dylan is the greatest lyricist of all time and he singlehandedly shaped my own writing in the mid 60s".........because that'd be closer to accurate.

Side note : What exactly was Dylan saying that you or the clueless journalist didn't think he meant? You think, those protest songs he wrote were a scam? You think he was really a joyful optimist and wrote "Desolation Row" as a lark to make some cash?

comment #16

Pinko Punko says ...

Well, Jeremy, you didn't see "The Quiet Man" last night on the big screen, and I can tell you that Ford wears thin if you see a lot of his films in a short period of time. The Irish brawling and jokes and dudes being dudes was pretty thick. It is a fun film, except Sean Thornton is somehow a good guy because he doesn't rape his wife as would have been his due- horrific misogyny. The flashback scene was one of Wayne's best, however.

Still looking forward to "The Searchers" next week.

Jeff forgets one of Ford's worst aspects- horrific Confederate nostalgia. Ford wasn't the only one, but that particular undercurrent was very distasteful in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon"- he did it very well, but what he was doing was terrible.

comment #17

TheCahuengaKid says ...

In STAGECOACH (1939) ...the scene where the cavalry wife is about to get a bullet in the brain to save her from "a fate worse than death" at the hands of the attacking apaches. She stops praying long enough to say "Can you hear it? Can you hear it? It's the bugle! They're blowing the charge!!"
Ford makes the hero jump cut to the the U.S Cavalry charging across the plains to save the day and you can't help but jump up and cheer. And I'm part American Indian...

comment #18

George Prager says ...

John Cocktosten: Dylan got offended because the writer questioned his integrity. What would you do? He had every right to be pissed off. (And Time magazine at that point in time was the voice of the right wing establishment, which made it even more galling). The scene that shows Dylan at his best is when he is talking to the guys in the rock band that cover his songs, but complain that no one is listening to the words. Dylan says that he just writes them-- if they pay attention to the words great, but if they don't, well, whatever. He didn't take himself very seriously.

comment #19

mccool says ...

jj ---

"...I don't believe in Zimmerman...."

-from 'God' by John Lennon

As he rejected and renounced all of the phony relationships and commercial driven artistry of his youth, I think Lennon came to see Dylan as a bit of a phony. Dylan in the 70s became almost a bit of a parody of himself, and when he embraced christianity, Lennon saw that as the ultimate sign of Dylan's corruption. Dylan may have been one of the key catalysts in getting Lennon to think about the words of his songs (not to mention marijuana), but there was no love lost between by the time Lennon was killed.

comment #20

BurmaShave says ...

mccool, from the same song:

"I don't believe in magic,
I don't believe in I-ching,
I don't believe in bible,
I don't believe in tarot,
I don't believe in Hitler,
I don't believe in Jesus,
I don't believe in Kennedy,
I don't believe in Buddha,
I don't believe in mantra,
I don't believe in Gita,
I don't believe in yoga,
I don't believe in kings,
I don't believe in Elvis,
I don't believe in Zimmerman,
I don't believe in Beatles,
I just believe in me,
Yoko and me"

You don't generally get the point of anything do you?

comment #21

BurmaShave says ...

And I prefer the old masters, Bob Dylan, Bob Dylan, and Bob Dylan.

comment #22

mccool says ...

yeah, burma, i know the song. Thanks. I think i'll listen to it now. Why don't you enlighten me with your wisdom instead of sharing your usual lazy dismissiveness...

comment #23

George Prager says ...

Time to break out the Weberman vs. Dylan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5dR_jns4MhY

comment #24

mccool says ...

btw, he song is about false idoltry. How that doesn't apply to what I wrote, only you can know. So what's your spin?? You don't generally do much thinking about anything, do you? Same old ingrained thoughts...

comment #25

jonathanara says ...

Jeffrey (to defend visceral): Searchers really is a flawed film. It feels very staged and is often over the top -- it has dated very badly. It is hard to immerse oneself because of things like:
- Mose Harper (his rocking chair, doing the Indian dance right before Ethan kicks him
- one of the characters yelling about finding the bodies with the over the top echo (Reverand . . . Ethan . . . Look!)
- Jeffrey Hunter's Martin (pretty much everything about him except the great image of discovering the burning house)
- Laurie's scream about the incoming Camanche raid (followed by the slap).
- Charlie (Laurie's suitor)
- Brad's death
- Captain Greenhill and the Reverand's conversation about Colonel Greenhill ("I resent that!")
- Martin discovering the burning house 1 minute after Ethan does (even though he was walking for miles without a horse!)
- "That'll be the day"
- Debbie's cheesy "I remember"speech. The content of the speech is fine, but what a terrible delivery.

However, one cannot deny the following great moments:
- Martha stroking Ethan's coat as the Reverend looks away drinking his coffee (knowing exactly what is going on). Such wonderful subtlety that is absent from the rest of the film. It is never really referred to again and never made explicit. Knowing that Ford was capable of such great moments makes the over the top scenes/characters described above seem that much more jarring.
- the discovery of the burning house (as the music comes in)
- Natalie Wood running down the hill in the background as Ethan and Martin argue (great music)
- the iconic door framing
- the beautiful scenery and cinematography
- the staging of multiple characters in the same room (excellent blocking)
- Ethan taking his rifle out of the "holster" while on horseback as he approaches the burning house
- Debbie asking Chris the dog to walk away right before Scar approaches (wonderful moment)

So, the movie has some interesting undertones, and is interesting to discuss and analyze but overall it is an aesthetic failure because the non-stop jarring moments take you out of the film.

comment #26

George Prager says ...

I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU FUCKING NEGATIVE-NANCY NAYSAYERS.

Get ready, bitches, cuz this isn't going to be pretty.

And my IRONY MODE is set to MOTHERFUCKING OFF, because this one is for real.

JOHN FORD is my IDOL.

Has been for 10 years. Dude is the GREATEST MOVIE DIRECTOR of the last 100 years, a LEGEND on par with WELLES, RENOIR, SCORCESE, CLINT, you name it.

BOW BEFORE FORD. BOW!!!!!!

[snip]

What have any of us accomplished? Eating a bowl of fucking cereal? Doing some niche bullshit? This is a MOVIE DIRECTOR who has BROUGHT THE WORLD TOGETHER, and you're all sounding off alarms like an Oscar for best picture is some walk of shame level disgrace.

FUCK THAT.

The man is the GREATEST MOVIE DIRECTOR of all time. The man's EYE-PATCH is INCREDIBLE and if you don't seek to style your WACK-ASS COIF after JOHN FORD in your day to day life, you are the lesser man for it.

THE SEARCHERS WILL OWN YOUR ASS. EVERYTHING FORD EVER HAS DONE with the exceptions of maybe SEVEN WOMEN, HOW GREEN IS MY VALLEY, and THE JUDGE PRIEST, are LIFE-CHANGING PAENS (sic) TO THE POWER OF POSITIVE THINKING.

RECOGNIZE.

comment #27

BurmaShave says ...

mccool how does a stab at false idolatry indicate a special animus towards those being worshipped? And what is the indication there is any special disdain for "Zimmerman"? Surely he didn't think Kennedy was a phony? All I'm saying.

comment #28

corey3rd says ...

What about Bob Dylan as a filmmaker?

comment #29

John Cocktosten says ...

jjgittes--

From the 1970 Rolling Stone interview with Jann Wenner:

RS: In "God", why did you choose to refer to Dylan as Zimmerman rather than Dylan?

JL: Because Dylan is bullshit. Zimmerman is his name. I don't believe in Dylan....Zimmerman is his name. My name isn't John Beatle, it's John Lennon. Just like that.

(later in the interview)

RS: What did you think of Dylan's album?

JL: I thought it wasn't much, because I expect more. Maybe I expect too much from people, but I expect more. I haven't been a Dylan follower since he stopped rocking. I like "Rolling Stone" and the few things he did then. I like a few things he did in the early days, but the rest of it's just like McCartney or something. It's no different---it's a myth.

RS: You don't hink then that it's a legitimate "new morning"?

JL: No, it's a lot of bullshit. It might be a new morning for him because he's stopped singing on top of his [demonstrates] high up there. And he's singing down there. I mean it's alright, but it's nothing. It doesn't mean a fucking thing.

That's pretty clear, but here it gets clearer....from the 1980 Playboy interview:

PLAYBOY: Briefly, what about the statement on the new album?

LENNON: Very briefly, it's about very ordinary things between two people. The lyrics are direct. Simple and straight. I went through my Dylanesque period a long time ago with songs like "I am the Walrus:" the trick of never saying what you mean but giving the impression of something more. Where more or less can be read into it. It's a good game.

In "Don't Look Back", I remember watching him ramble and noting that at some point he really just started talking out of his ass, and the journalist called him on it. I don't have the movie, and can't re-watch it now. When people create a cult around an alleged genius, the "genius" deserves to be questioned, and that's what the journalist did and should have done.

Regarding your other points, I'm not questioning his protest songs, nor his merit as an entertainer. In his protest songs, he has to deal with concrete facts, and merely takes empathetic positions. He's just a bullshitter as described precisely by Lennon in the quote above and also described ably by bondjamesbond as someone engaged in "building a mystery" all the time.

I like some of his stuff fine. I vehemently oppose any label of genius, musical or otherwise. He's no Shakespeare as a poet and no Lennon as a singer/songwriter.

comment #30

Pinko Punko says ...

Did Prager just out himself as actionlover?

I like the Searchers for the moments when I feel like the actors and cinematography push back against the hamminess and breathe a little. I blame Ford for the woodenness of some of the perfs. I think Jeffrey Hunter was good and bad at the same time. Wayne was better here than in his other Ahab role, Red River.

I have to say, watching "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" I was even more annoyed with them traveling around in circles in Monument Valley. Once you recognize the landmarks it just starts to feel like a Scooby Doo cartoon. I don't think "The Searchers" is as bad, but maybe it is.

comment #31

George Prager says ...

This is for John Cocktosten:

National Lampoon's John Lennon Interview Parody
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM7-iHrOPoA

comment #32

John Cocktosten says ...

That's pretty good.

comment #33

mccool says ...

burma ... every mention in that song is pejorative. And if that doesn't do it for you, how about 'Serve Yourself,' Lennon's searing parody of Dylan, written in direct response to Dylan's "You Gotta Serve Somebody".

I love a lot of Dylan's stuff as much as anyone, and certainly more than almost anything Lennon put out on his own. I'm not taking a swipe at Dylan, I'm merely saying that Lennon had lost all respect for him by the late 70s. Not even saying that matters much, just sayin....

comment #34

Phatang! says ...

I disagree with the premise of Ford being a Mans' Man. Though I think manhood was often his subject, he had a more nuanced view of it. That's a big part of what MY DARLING CLEMENTINE is about--remember how the barber puts perfume on Henry Fonda, and then he goes to the dance? He's becoming "less of a man," and it's a good thing--Doc Holiday, the man's man, doesn't survive.

I also hate The Searchers. It's tedious, boring, third-rate Ford, a director turning to a formula that had served him well in the past, but without the creative energy to animate the story. Kind of like THE DEPARTED.

comment #35

Gordon27 says ...

it's perjorative, but at the same time, it's a sort of -- what's the opposite of a backhanded insult? Because he's acknowledging that, culturally speaking, Dylan is on the same level as Elvis Presley and The Beatles. (Incidentally, are you saying John Lennon didn't like Elvis Presley either?)

comment #36

Gordon27 says ...

I'd also point out, from those quotes, Lennon starts disliking Dylan around 'New Morning'. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that, when the Beatles broke up, after Lennon and Harrison fought a ton, Bob Dylan brought Harrison in to work on 'New Morning', and suddenly, right then, purely by coincidence, John Lennon decided he didn't like Dylan's music anymore.

Pure coincidence, right?

comment #37

mccool says ...

Gordon, I'm not in Lennon's head. Lennon was a drug-addled, angry, bitter guy, and his relationship could have soured with Dylan because of his budding relationship with Harrison, or because he just decided to be an insufferable twat. I don't know. I gave my thoughts as to why he may have come to feel this way, but who am I to say?

comment #38

Floyd Thursby says ...

Dylan's recent albums, especially the new one, are about rediscovering and learning from traditional American music: folk, blues, country, Tin Pan Alley, jazz, early rock. He celebrates such music on his radio show. It's not surprising that he would embrace Ford.

A lot of Ford is stilted, forced, overly sentimental, silly, and reactionary, but when he's good, he's very good: Quiet Man, Searchers, and, especially, My Darling Clementine.