comment #1

TheJeff says ...

Surely most people know that Lou Lumenick is an idiot and an asshole who should never be taken even remotely seriously. He has zero understanding of cinema, and his taste is roughly tantamount to that of a twelve year old girl. There's a reason he's writing for the Post for God's sake. I'll give Lumenick's thoughts on Mann about as much weight as I would give Britney Spear's thoughts on Mann.

comment #2

berkguru says ...

it will gross about $20MM max at the box office anyway regardless of any reviews

comment #3

gradystiles says ...

berkguru, I can't tell if you're just trying to be snarky or what, but if you think this movie is going to have a total gross of $20 million, you're crazy. It'll open to multiples of that.

comment #4

sz says ...

what happened to the previous micheal mann piece jeff? the one with the picture where you quote from lumm's review. many people has posted comments!!!???

comment #5

MarkVH says ...

Lemenick got nailed by Universal for breaking the embargo so he (and subsequently Jeff, whose post reprinted much of the article) redacted their pieces.

comment #6

great scott says ...

Jeff, have you seen it yourself? How do you know Lumenick is wrong? You may see the film and be shocked to find yourself agreeing with him.

comment #7

great scott says ...

Then again, Lumenick is the guy who gave Da Vinci Code four stars, so you're probably right.

comment #8

sz says ...

cool. thanks MarkVH. anyway welles can re-post reader comments that were made to enable to conversation to keep going?

comment #9

Mark says ...

It'll open to multiples of that ($20 million)

in what universe? pre catch-jumping Cruise could get Mann only a $20 million opening. And that is Mann's only movie to crack $75M total.

comment #10

efbrackett says ...

Best since The Insider isn't saying much. I found that movie a total bore. However, I do plan to see this.

comment #11

hollyman says ...

If it was a good review don't you think Universal would be using quotes from the review on the commercial spots by tonight?

comment #12

gradystiles says ...

Mark, just wait and see.

comment #13

The Playlist says ...

I'm not down with Lou, but also not down with the let's support Mann campaining. I like the guy too, but let the film rest on its merits. Reviews will come in due time, no need to panic. If it sucks, it sucks, if it's great, hey gravy for all of us.

comment #14

Jonah says ...

"pre catch-jumping Cruise could get Mann only a $20 million opening. And that is Mann's only movie to crack $75M total. "

Right now Johnny Depp is one of, if not the most, popular actors on planet earth.

Not all of his films make money, but not all of them are really designed to either.

Although I don't think the film will open to multiples of 20 million, it won't gross 20 million max as somebody else stated.

I'll probably gross around 60-80 during its run. A little more or less depending on the word of mouth.

comment #15

hollyman says ...

This is Univseral doing damage control the best they can

comment #16

gradystiles says ...

There's no need for Universal to do damage control. This is a commercial movie that's also actually GOOD, with solid performances, especially from Depp.

It'll gross way more than $60 million total during its run.

comment #17

hollyman says ...

here is the question what was the biggest grossing Michael Mann movie?

Also if I was Universal I would be little nervous. They are opening a little less than a week after Transformers and right next to a major family release with ice age 3 (or whatever the hell its called) granted totally different audiences but Michael Mann movies aren't box office hits and they aren't meant to be. But Universal thinks so. Any bad press hurts this movie this time of year.... Why didn;t they just wait until November?

comment #18

COCO says ...

Jeff, you are spot on...get it down...in front...direct the flow...and make a selected sneak somewhere....maybe Chicago?

comment #19

hollyman says ...

gradystiles: did you see it?

comment #20

gradystiles says ...

hollyman, my point is that this is Mann's most commercial movie and it's also his best-cast, in terms of star power. Universal didn't wait for November because they believe it can work in the summer--and it can.

comment #21

gradystiles says ...

yes, I've seen it. But, no, I can't say anything specific about it.

comment #22

scooterzz says ...

""...my point is that this is Mann's most commercial movie and it's also his best-cast, in terms of star power"

exactly what was said about 'collateral' and it's arguable that depp/bale trump cruise/foxx...

and, it is universal attempting to do damage control in their trying to enforce an embargo (and forcing bloggers to take down threads)...unfortunately for them, after internet leakage it's like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube...

comment #23

GKLondon says ...

Lumenick is a critic who can't bring himself to write Universal more than once. He's one of those lazy fuckholes who refer to films as 'pics'. "Pic runs a little over two hours' is considered incisive criticism by this cretin and his ilk. He should just review tv shows or something, but then there is no way to abbreviate 'show' without sounding like a librarian.

Michael Mann directing Johnny Depp in a movie about Dillinger should get any red-blooded film fan fucking psyched. If it's not great, so be it, but I'm there as soon as I can be. And what is up with this sports-style mentality about films? It's not a fucking race. Good films are good films whether they make $20 Million or Transformers type numbers. The next asshole who says 'Oh, but it won't make BANK!' needs to punch him or herself in the face. So that makes you more clever than Michale Mann or anyone at Universal? They should have made 2012 instead?

comment #24

Mark says ...

Most commercial movie? So Depp doesn't get shot to death at the end? Cuz that would be commercial. As it stands this movie has zero appeal to most anyone under 25, or anyone without a penis. Because as i proved in a different thread, chicks hate Mann.

And Depp does not trump 2004 Cruise, who was coming off a crap non-francise, non-award-garnering ninja flick that he pushed to $500 million ww.

comment #25

scooterzz says ...

after 'land of the lost'; 'state of play' and 'duplicity' being more clever than universal doesn't seem like a stretch......

comment #26

gradystiles says ...

Ok, Mark. Keep making snappy comments that show you don't really know what you're talking about. "Zero appeal to anyone without a penis?" Yeah, because no females like Depp...

And, yes, Depp trumps 2004 Cruise, and it's not even really close.

comment #27

Ghost072 says ...

Amen GKLondon.

Mark, do you think anyone under 25 likes Johnny Depp and/or gangsters? Do you think girls like Johnny Depp? Maybe just a little? I know you speak for all those under 25, as well as females of all ages, so I am asking sincerely. Thanks...

comment #28

Kristopher Tapley says ...

This is NOT Mann's most commercial movie. It is perhaps his most easily MARKETED movie for commercial aspects that it in fact lacks, but as for the film itself, no way. That honor still belongs to Collateral.

comment #29

gradystiles says ...

I disagree, Kris, but you're entitled to your opinion. I think this edges out Collateral as Mann's most commercial work. Yes, it's the most easily marketed, as well.

comment #30

Ulysses says ...

I'll never know what LL had to say aboot the movie because that link is as dead as Dillinger. And I'm probably going to see Public Enemies irregardless, as it looks like a movie for grown-ups.

comment #31

hollyman says ...

This is just another bad move by Universal. Cinderella Man a very good movie (of course my opinion) was released in June 05. Universal thought we will get great money at the box office and we have Russell Crowe and Ron Howard who won Oscars together. That movie bombed That was not a summer movie. Universal never learns from the errors of the past. And this will be another major error. I love Michael Mann movies and I hope it doesn't fail but it will. Again look what they are going up against. This should be a Winter movie

comment #32

scooterzz says ...

well, it had better be his most easily marketed movie because that extremely lame universal marketing team doesn't take well to challange.....

comment #33

GKLondon says ...

Scooterzz, I don't think that's fair, each of those films has a pedigree of some sort. Sure, it's probably a bit of a reach with 'Land of the Lost' though I haven't seen it as it hasn't opened over here yet, but it couldn't be worse than Step Brothers (which I actually kinda like, it's a film that has no right existing, and for that, it's a pretty interesting watch). Ferrell makes money, and Danny McBride is well worth seeing in most anything. Plus from what I gather, it seems like they tried to slip a surreal comedy into the summer season in lieu of a family friendly romp. State of Play had it's problems, both production wise and with the final product, but had Crowe, an interesting director, and a solid starting point in the BBC series. And Duplicity was smart, well played and written and directed by a man coming off of a good show in Oscar season. Sure it had Roberts, and she leaves me very, very cold, but it could have been her comeback. All of these seem like good reasons to make a film.

In retrospect sure, maybe not good decisions, but not because of the factors in play while making those decisions. Again, it comes back to my point, you can point at a failure all you want and say it was a stupid idea because it was a failure down the line, but that's missing the point. Decisions are made BEFORE the outcome.

But I get it, glib humour, sorry, funny stuff. Still prefer the output of Universal to anything Fox has put out for about, oh I don't know, a decade. Fox should just fuck the fuck off.

comment #34

hollyman says ...

GKLondon: Univseral so far this year has been horrible. Worse than any summer that I can imagine.(OK FOX was bad last summer as well) In the last several years they have had horrible crap. Even when they have winners they can't market them. They don;t know how to. Its been like that for several years at that studio.

comment #35

Steven Kar says ...

I like Mann yet I absolutely accept that he's got his flaws and deficiencies as a filmmaker. My problem with all his movies is that the parts are greater than the sum.

comment #36

Mark says ...

"I think this edges out Collateral as Mann's most commercial work."

Mann's only close-to-commercial movie was Last of the Mohicans. That was his only explicit attempt to manipulate audience emotion, which is what commercialism is all about. Show the audience pretty things that they come to care about.

comment #37

GKLondon says ...

I will concede that there marketing department could use a kick in the pants, though the Public Enemies trailer is pretty good. And they made Role Models, which is good for what it is. Changeling didn't seem like a bad idea. What else have they put out this year? They made the Bourne films. And Serenity is a good film, but that was like 2005, and didn't make 'bank'.

Yes the Mummy pictures are shit. And so is Wanted. But in the plus column, they did give Guillermo Del Toro the opportunity to make Hellboy 2 without much interference.

comment #38

StoneFan1 says ...

I'm worried about "Public Enemies" box office performance. There's very little buzz about the film outside of Mann fans and Internet film buffs. I'm concerned it won't break $20 million during its opening weekend and won't manage to gross the $120-150 million it'll need to avoid being a flop. The budget is up around $100 million with an additional $20-40 million in prints, ads, and marketing. I think Universal has done a very poor job in building up interest in this film.

comment #39

StoneFan1 says ...

Mark - I hope you were comenting on why mainstream audiences may have liked "Last of the Mohicans" and not the film itself. Because saying "show the audience pretty things that they come to care about" has nothing to do with "Last of the Mohicans,' which is clearly Mann's best film from start to finish.

comment #40

The InSneider says ...

Gruver, you missed a GOLDEN opportunity. The title of this post should be "Cat WAY Out Of The Bag," in a nod to Pacino's immortal (to me, anyway) line in Mann's Heat.

comment #41

gradystiles says ...

stonefan1, on what are you basing your assertion that the movie doesn't have buzz outside of the internet and Mann fans? Universal has been running TV spots for it for a few weeks now, and early indications are that it's tracking well.

comment #42

Kristopher Tapley says ...

Sneider: Check again. It's cat "TOTALLY" out of the bag. And it's not in "Heat." It's in "The Insider." Come on.

comment #43

Stringer Bell says ...

Mann's movies dont make much money.

Because of Depp, I say it maxes out at 70 mil.

comment #44

Jonah says ...

"Because as i proved in a different thread, chicks hate Mann. "

You said it. You didn't prove it.

"And Depp does not trump 2004 Cruise, who was coming off a crap non-francise, non-award-garnering ninja flick that he pushed to $500 million ww. "

A lot of people have always hated Cruise, and younger moviegoers couldn't care less about him. Depp is pretty well liked across the board, and the Pirates films have kept him popular among younger audiences.

comment #45

Sam says ...

@kris tapley: kudos, my mann, on comment 42. Holy smokes that was deft. I'll be laughing about it all afternoon.
Have you seen the ali director's cut? breathes a whole lot better than the theatrical.
you've gotta watch it with the subtitles on but it's right next to heat/insider/mohicans.
I had to order it from the US (to Aus). Should I bother with the longer miami vice cut? I'm skeptical b/ I already like the theatrical.

comment #46

The InSneider says ...

Kris, don't know what I was thinking. I was high off my ass when I wrote that, surprise, surprise. But are you SURE he didn't say something like that to Azaria in Heat? I coulda sworn... but I don't have the DVD to reference. The egg is on my face though, I concede that much.
And Sam, yuk it up. But movies don't breathe so I have no idea what the hell "breathes a whole lot better" means. And no you shouldn't bother with the longer cut of Miami Vice because that was a shitty movie so why would you torture yourself with more Colin Ferrell and Gong Li.

comment #47

The InSneider says ...

I'll choose to look on the bright side and say I knew it was Pacino in a Mann film. Just picked the wrong film and used the wrong word. Uh... yeah.

comment #48

Deathtongue_Groupie says ...

The InSneider - C'mon, the best line Pacino says to Azaria is:

"She had a GREAT ASS! And you had your head ALL the way UP IT!!!!"

comment #49

MrTribeca says ...

I can see PE having some legs and edging over $100m - but zero Oscar noms.

comment #50

bibliotechnician says ...

I think this film is positioned to do just fine at the BO. First, half of the people that will be seeing this film could give a rodent's posterior who Mann is. They will be seeing it because of Depp in cool clothes brandishing machine guns. The other half will be the counter-programming older demo that will love an old fashioned crime drama. While watching the trailers for the WAY over rated Star Trek: The Action Movie, the audience responded to PE more than any other film, including Transformers (and i live in BFE, not exactly the center of the cultural universe). And i don't think you can compare this to Collateral -- Cruise playing against type without Grecian Formula and Foxx looking quite old and geeky is not what the masses expected.

So why is any of this BO nonsense important? Because I want Mann directing more films. Not Sommers, McG, Bay, and all the other big budget hacks.

comment #51

erniesouchak says ...

I usually like both Mann (minus "Miami Vice") and Depp, but I have to say, this movie looks totally uninspiring.

comment #52

hcat says ...

"As it stands this movie has zero appeal to most anyone under 25, or anyone without a penis."

And Mark is not excited to see it. Which group do you think he falls in.

And there is no way that Depp is today a bigger star than Cruise was in 04. Depp's great successes have been kiddie pictures, he hasn't brought an R in over 100m since Sleepy Hollow.

comment #53

Bircks says ...

Depp has not exactly been a commercial player outside of the Pirates movies, he has helped boost movies with some appeal, but as a whole audiences respect him, they don't go see movies for him like people do for Cruise in 2004.

Also Mann's most commercial film marketing wise was a flop, but Miami Vice with a post 'Ray' Jamie Foxx and Colin Farrell in 'SWAT' mode. The movie ended up sucking which gave it terrible buzz, but an action movie based on a popular TV show is clearly Mann's most commercial looking movie on paper. This movie also followed Mann's popular and respected 'Collateral.'

Finally I would say even 'Ali' looked more commercial it also ended up not being a commercial bio pic and failed to generate Smith's normal box office numbers. Hell he was even able to get 'Seven Pounds' to higher numbers. 'Pursuit of Happyness' doubled 'Ali' and that performance didn't have the buzz of of Smith in 'Ali.'

Face it Mann can't make commercial films that can do well without really tight scripts and stars who will work the press circuit.

comment #54

Jonah says ...

"And there is no way that Depp is today a bigger star than Cruise was in 04. Depp's great successes have been kiddie pictures, he hasn't brought an R in over 100m since Sleepy Hollow."

Kiddie pictures? I don't like the Pirates films at all but they are hardly kiddie pictures. They appealed to people of all ages, that's why they made ungodly amounts of money.

That's like saying Titanic only appealed to teenage girls.

Right now, Depp has far more appeal (and far less detractors) than Cruise had any time this decade.

comment #55

Mark says ...

"And Mark is not excited to see it. Which group do you think he falls in."

Over 25 w/ penis in tow. The Insider is in my Top 5, so Mann has won a lifetime pass w/ me. i will see PE, but I am also pessimistic regarding it's chances at being a hit.

Further on my point of commercialism, in addition to narrative structure, I meant to refer to the look of the film and the coverage given to its stars. Tight shots in bright color at conventional angles = commercial, which is why I mention Last of the Mohicans as Mann's one true commercial attempt. (And it remains his biggest hit.)

With the digital cameras, desaturated colors, and documentary-like angles he prefers now, he's in a different world. Which is why comparing PE to Collateral is very apt. I can't think of any BO hits shot like this besides the Bourne sequels, which had the benefit of following a huge original.

comment #56

gradystiles says ...

Wrong again. Mohicans isn't Mann's biggest hit.

comment #57

scooterzz says ...

depp's last actual released project was an episode of 'spongebob squarepants'....i'm told that crowd is champing at the bit for the latest michael mann film....

comment #58

Mark says ...

Grady, enlighten me. I thought Mohicans was his only movie to be one of the year's top 20 earners. And adjusted for inflation, it surpasses Collateral. i could be wrong...

comment #59

Jonah says ...

"depp's last actual released project was an episode of 'spongebob squarepants'....i'm told that crowd is champing at the bit for the latest michael mann film...."

Resorting to this now, huh?

Sad.

comment #60

hcat says ...

Jonah- alright Kiddie pictures might have been a bit dismissive but I meant they were targeting the much larger family audience while this is going for adults, which Cruise had been able to reach for close to two decades previous to the release of Collateral. Depp has been a presence in the movies but only a true box office force since the first Pirates (which also had some heavy lifting help from the then hot Bloom, the up and coming Knieghtly and whatever cache the Mann name has it is nothing compared to the Disney name).

When pitching films to the audience PE wants to reach Depp has hit around 60 mil. Cruise, even in his post meltdown phase was able to take Valkerie into the 80s.

comment #61

ChiTownGuy says ...

FYI.... Depp/Bale/Cotillard and Mann have been in Chicago since Thursday for a red-carpet and press junket. Last night there were two screenings. I was at a screening sponsored by another website where Mann made an appearance. Pic was good but I wasn't blown away. (Though I must say I had high expectations.) Felt like Bale's character was underwritten.... Shoot-outs and foot chase scenes were well-choreographed. Chicago and other locals look great. Cotillard impressed me. Hand held camera work made me dizzy several times. Couldn't really catch a vibe off the audience. Two girls in front of me were really into it but the person sitting next to me was playing with his ice for the last 30 mins.

comment #62

free games says ...

Lumenick is the guy who gave Da Vinci Code four stars, so you're probably right.

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comment #64

yokek says ...

Get in front of it, slap it down -- don't let Lou control the conversation. Mann loyalists, unite!
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comment #67

zukaholic says ...

A lot of people have always hated Cruise, and younger moviegoers couldn't care less about him. Depp is pretty well liked across the board, and the Pirates films have kept him popular among younger audiences.

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comment #68

aberta says ...

nice post! this will be another major error. I love Michael Mann movies and I hope it doesn't fail but it will. Again look what they are going up against. This should be a Winter movie

comment #69

Kodak Sport zx3 says ...

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comment #70

Insomnia Quotes says ...

Finally I would say even 'Ali' looked more commercial it also ended up not being a commercial bio pic and failed to generate Smith's normal box office numbers. Hell he was even able to get 'Seven Pounds' to higher numbers. 'Pursuit of Happyness' doubled 'Ali' and that performance didn't have the buzz of of Smith in 'Ali.'

Face it Mann can't make commercial films that can do well without really tight scripts and stars who will work the press circuit.

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