comment #1

Movie Watcher says ...

As soon as the speech was over, I switched to Fox News, and what a surprise, the complaing, bitching and moaning had begun. To them it doesn't matter what Obama said, they started in. No surprise what Rush, Hannity and the rest of them will talk about today.

comment #2

Movie Watcher says ...

I meant 'complaining', my error.

comment #3

Mowkeka says ...

"The haters on all sides..."

You know, it's so funny whenever I hear that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a "hater." Isn't dissent the highest form of patriotism?

comment #4

Sabina E says ...

oh yes, Mowkeka, don't forget that you goddamned Republicans called us "traitors" whenever we spoke out against Bush's oppressive administration or when we opposed the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Dumbass.

comment #5

BoshBarnetWonkyDonkey says ...

You'd have to be a moron to pick holes in this speech. Well done, again, Mr. Obama.

He's fucking ace. I'm British and just looking at our shambles of a Prime Minister makes it even more clear just how phenomenal your President is. A once-in-a-lifetime kind of guy. Well done, America, for electing him.

Fox News can piss off.

comment #6

Phatang! says ...

"dissenters on both sides" might read a little dry, Mowkeka.

comment #7

crazynine says ...

"I found it well phrased, intelligent, empathetic but frank, morally correct, etc."

Of course you did. This would only be worth a posting if you *hadn't*.

comment #8

solus says ...

I Think he was talking about the Israelis and Palestinians....

comment #9

VictorLazlo says ...

Ok Mowkeka, what was wrong with the speech?

comment #10

Travis Crabtree says ...

Do any of you people ever get tired of this "our team / your team" bullshit?

Here's an idea. How about an intelligent analysis of the speech? Will it be effective? How will it be received by the people it's aimed at.

Instead it's "Yay! It's another home run by Mr. Dreamy Can Do No Wrong! The only people who won't LOVE it are those meanie haters and Fox News. Boooo!" (reverse polarities for Republican president)

Hey, guess what? I'll bet Rush and Hannity, etc. didn't like the speech. And you know what else? I'll bet Olby and Matthews and Ed and Maddow and the gang at MSNBC just that it was awe-inspiring.

And I didn't even read the speech yet OR turn on the radio or television! (how DID I know?)

Movie Watcher - if you knew what the heads on Fox were going to say, why did you switch over? You think the NBCs, CBS, etc will be any less predictable?

comment #11

Jonah says ...

"Do any of you people ever get tired of this "our team / your team" bullshit?
"
Coming from Travis Crabtree, this is fucking hilarious.

Mowkeka,

At least we're just calling them "haters". During the previous administration dissenters were told we were traitors, should move to Iraq, and "we are either with you, or against you"

I'd rather be labeled a hater.

comment #12

Travis Crabtree says ...

Why is it hilarious coming from me? (sorry, "fucking hilarious") Oh, I get it. Am I one of "the bad guys from the other team"?

And are we still trotting out the "we were called traitors!" meme? Really? Who, in the previous administration, called dissenters "unpatriotic"? Seriously. Name names. (and by names I mean members of the previous administration, NOT unemployed redneck callers to the Rush Limbaugh Show or letter writers to WorldNet Daily)

I recall a discussion on "The Graduate" post about the value of having one's own opinion.... I guess that just applies to Mike Nichols films and not politics.

comment #13

Mickey says ...

I don't have much desire to wade into political debate, but illogical arguments really bother me.

I'm pretty sure Jonah was referring to what he viewed as your partisan hypocrisy, not your specific opinion. I'm really starting to question your ability to comprehend the written word.

Now, why is it necessary to specifically name names only from the Bush administration? Who in the current administration is throwing around the admittedly silly phrase "haters"? (Unless some of the anonymous H-E commenters are in fact elected officials, in which case I retract.) How is your requirement at all equivalent to what is being discussed?

comment #14

Travis Crabtree says ...

Gee, I don't know, Mickey.... perhaps I got the sense that Jonah was inferring that members of the previous administration told dissenters they were "traitors" because Jonah said... well, here...let me cut and paste, (since apparently I seem to have trouble with the written word)-

"During the previous administration dissenters were told we were traitors, should move to Iraq, and "we are either with you, or against you" "

Even if he weren't referring to actual members of the administration, so what? "I called them 'haters', but they called me much worse!'

And I don't recall having any kind of "requirement".

My point as far as this particular discussion is concerned wasn't meant to be partisan, though it is bound to be perceived that way since I earlier, (on another thread) expressed opinions that were not along Democratic Party lines, therefore I'm "One of Them".

I was simply trying to say that the reactions to Jeffrey's post regarding Obama's speech, (including Jeffrey's commentary), were typically along familiar "our team / there team" lines.

I wonder sometimes if 70 to 80% of Fox's viewing audience consists of people on the left wanting to see something that will piss them off, with a similar percentage in reverse going towards MSNBC. ("Did you see what that prick Hannity / Olbermann said?!")

Anyway, enough of this. Let's go back to talking about which one of our favorite childhood toys would make an awesome summer blockbuster movie.

comment #15

Jonah says ...

Had a whole reply written to Travis, and typekey fucked it all up.

Anyway, first of all, nobody in the administration called the Obama dissenters "haters".

I had copied and pasted a quote from Ari Fleischer and another from Bush about their views on dissenters, but fucking typekey screwed that up.

Ari had the "we need to watch what we say, watch what we do" comment.

And Bush had the "you're either with us or against us" comment.

As for you, Travis. You're a hypocrite. You are the epitome of the "our side, versus their side" type.

comment #16

Jonah says ...

I said
"During the previous administration dissenters were told we were traitors, should move to Iraq, and "we are either with you, or against you"

Although I have proven that members of the administration did make dangerous, anti-american comments about dissenters, at no time in the above quote do I claim it was members of the administration.

comment #17

Travis Crabtree says ...

"As for you, Travis. You're a hypocrite. You are the epitome of the "our side, versus their side" type."

Examples?

And your examples of the previous administration's admonitions are a bit tenuous.

"we need to watch what we say, watch what we do..." Oooooo! You know what THAT means! (Ari was REALLY saying "don't say anything bad about Bush, or we'll throw you in Gitmo!") Please. Pretty please with sugar on top.

And the "with us or against us" comment was from a press conference in the Nov. following 9/11.... it was directed to the nations of the world regarding terrorism... (the actual quote...not that it really matters, is "you're either with us or against us in the fight against terror".... it was a derivation of the speech to congress earlier when he said "you're either with us or you're with the terrorists").... like I said, it was directed to other nations, particularly ones known to harbor terrorists, not readers of the Nation or fans of Michael Moore...

Now, you can debate his choice of words and his actions all you want, but at least get the context right...

Speaking of which, I never understood the hyper-sensitivity to insults tossed by right-wingers. If someone called me "unpatriotic" I'd tell them to go fuck themselves, not cry like a bitch and write earnest screeds to Huffpo while waiting for the jackboots to arrive.

comment #18

Travis Crabtree says ...

(By the way, Jonah and whoever else....)

When you're done typing out your latest manifesto to HE, copy everything you write before hitting the "post" button....

That way if TypeKey fucks you by not posting it and making you sign in all over again you can just do a paste and not re-write the whole goddam thing...

comment #19

p.Vice says ...

Right back to square one.

You really nailed it on that one, Jeff.

comment #20

Jonah says ...

The fact that you defend those comments proves my point about you.

No matter what, you'll defend your side.

And I no longer think of myself as a Republican or a Democrat. I'm not defending a side. I'm against small minded, scare tactics.

comment #21

Travis Crabtree says ...

"my side" Jesus, Jonah... you're a parody.
No matter what, I'll defend "my side"? Again, examples?
You claim no party affiliation, but that doesn't stop you from applying it to other people.

As the girl on Maury Povich says after not finding the daddy to her child after seven DNA tests says - "(bleep) you! You don't know me!"

comment #22

Travis Crabtree says ...

I just read the speech.

This passage is brilliant-

"Palestinians must abandon violence. Resistance through violence and killing is wrong and does not succeed. For centuries, black people in America suffered the lash of the whip as slaves and the humiliation of segregation. But it was not violence that won full and equal rights. It was a peaceful and determined insistence upon the ideals at the center of America's founding. This same story can be told by people from South Africa to South Asia; from Eastern Europe to Indonesia. It's a story with a simple truth: that violence is a dead end. It is a sign of neither courage nor power to shoot rockets at sleeping children, or to blow up old women on a bus. That is not how moral authority is claimed; that is how it is surrendered."

Well said.

The sad thing is, it'll probably all go to waste. I'm guessing a large chunk of the intended audience disregarded anything he said because nowhere in his speech did he call for Israel to be blown off the map nor did he say that Jews should be shoved into the Mediterranean.

comment #23

DeeZee says ...

Bosh: "I'm British and just looking at our shambles of a Prime Minister makes it even more clear just how phenomenal your President is."

Don't feel too bad. At least your current PM isn't a war criminal like Blair.

Travis: "Who, in the previous administration, called dissenters "unpatriotic"? Seriously. Name names."

Well, the FBI, CIA, and PNAC, for starters. Oh, and the Swift-Boaters, Clear Channel, Viacom, Disney, Time Warner, and FOX News.

comment #24

Travis Crabtree says ...

Nice try, Pseudo-D.Z. ... Names of people, not organizations...

Speaking of which, any word on the Dixie Chicks? Have they been released from prison yet? (That is, the ones that weren't executed by firing squad)

comment #25

DeeZee says ...

Travis: "Speaking of which, any word on the Dixie Chicks? Have they been released from prison yet?"

No, but then those innocent people raped in Gitmo took their place.

comment #26

Movie Watcher says ...

Travis, I watched Fox because I love a train wreck, even though I've seen it before. As for the rest, relax, you'll get another chance to rant and rave soon enough. O'Reilly will be on in about an hour!

comment #27

Travis Crabtree says ...

Ooo, double snap!

Good one, Movie Watcher!

comment #28

SpinDozer says ...

Am I one of "the bad guys from the other team"?

Let me get this straight, are you passing yourself off as "not-a-republican"?

'And are we still trotting out the "we were called traitors!" meme? Really?

Uh, it nots so much a "meme" as a pattern pretty easily discernable by a reasonably intelligent observer. The"meme" in this instance, innocently, I am sure, picked up and disseminated by a "non-republican" is that the administration its pundit allies did not attempt to insinuate that their opponents weren't patriotic and occassionally that they were aiding and abetting the enemy.

Who, in the previous administration, called dissenters "unpatriotic"? Seriously. Name names.

AG John Ashcroft opening statement to Senate Judiciary Committee Dec 6, 2001: "To those . . . who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty, my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists, for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies and pause to America's friends. They encourage people of goodwill to remain silent in the face of evil."

To many people who really aren't Republican (or the vanity brand 'Libertarian'), it is obvious that George Bush's For Us or Against Us speech was subject to mission creep as the time went on. To many people who really aren't Republican "supporting the troops" by continuing to fund and support Geo Bush's leadership was a not so veiled implication that to oppose the latter was to undermine yje troops, thereby aiding and abetting the enemy, thereby traitorous.

(and by names I mean members of the previous administration, NOT unemployed redneck callers to the Rush Limbaugh Show or letter writers to WorldNet Daily)

Let's not be childish. Demonizing the Democratic Party did not begin with the war. A 1996 GOPAC memo authored by beloved Comrade Leader Newton Gingrich..."Often we search hard for words to define our opponents. Sometimes we are hesitant to use contrast. Remember that creating a difference helps you. These are powerful words that can create a clear and easily understood contrast. Apply these to the opponent, their record, proposals and their party.” ...guess what one of these powerful words was...Traitor.

"Liberals have a preternatural gift for always striking a position on the side of treason" Ann Coulter (2003) Treason

"Democrats cannot walk away from this threat," Republican Peter Hoekstra said. "They cannot cut off funding on a larger scale because it will make us more vulnerable but I think that's exactly what they are doing." 2007

It was pretty much a full-court press to deliver this message early and often; full media spectrum dominance. There's a really good doc called 'War Made Easy' that shows the different stages of public relations from the white house when waging a war and encountering domestic opposition from every big and little conflict since, I think, Korea Democrats and Republicans and every one of them pairs supporting the troops with supporting the war. Vietnam, of course saw more demonization than the other wars, but BushCo were pretty close.

comment #29

SpinDozer says ...

' I never understood the hyper-sensitivity to insults tossed by right-wingers. If someone called me "unpatriotic" I'd tell them to go fuck themselves, not cry like a bitch and write earnest screeds to Huffpo while waiting for the jackboots to arrive.'

Number One, Go Fuck Yourself

Number Two, I never understand the hyper-stupidity of Right Wingers who when you plainly say, Go Fuck Yourself' persist in hearing crying and bitching.

Number Three, for a non-republican, you can really channel the hell outta those assholes

comment #30

Travis Crabtree says ...

Booyah, SpinDozer!

I'm terribly sorry that I didn't label myself clearly enough for you, since it seems to matter so much.

I AM A REGISTERED INDEPENDENT WHO MORE OFTEN THAN NOT VOTES REPUBLICAN. I VOTED FOR MCCAIN IN '08. (gasp!) I VOTED FOR DI-FI FOR CAL. SENATOR. I VOTED "NO" ON PROP. 8.

There you have it. Should I have checked in with the webmaster earlier? Does the above statement need to be permanently affixed to my name? Do you need my social sec. number, credit score, address or anything else to verify the above statement? Should I swear on the Bible/Koran that the above statement is true?

How DARE you call me "unpatriotic"! How DARE you say "go fuck yourself"! I think I will cry now, and then send a strong letter to the comments section of the Huffington Post to elaborate on my bruised sensitivities.

And seriously, (and I do mean seriously), when the dust settles, so what? So some mean people might have insinuated that some other people were "less of an American" or "not quite so patriotic" because the weren't behind the Iraq War. So the fuck what? What happened to these supposed victims of BushCo's implied infamy? Are they still locked up in Guantanamo? Are they buried in secret graves somewhere? Were they made to feel sad?

I did find it eerily silent during the last few years of the BushCo administration. You have a point about quashing dissent. It's a little unsettling how you NEVER heard ANYONE speak out against Bush / Cheney / Iraq War. Not on television, not on the internet, not in newspapers, not via giant puppets at rallies, nothing!

You really are an angry little man, Spin. You speak of childishness yet you see the world in the very us versus them framework that I mention several posts ago. If you aren't a registered Democrat and regular reader of Daily Kos, then you are a Rush / Coulter / Hannity - loving Racist, Hate-Mongering, War-Loving, Gun-Toting, Red Neck, John Birch, Abortion Doctor-Killing, Bible-Thumping Asshole.

And don't lecture anyone on "demonizing". It's a tactic used by all sides all the time in politics. It's no less demonizing when it's done to someone you admire or support.

Oh, yeah... and go fuck yourself you fucking pussy.

Peace out, yo!

comment #31

Travis Crabtree says ...

"Registered Independent", eh? You expect anyone to believe THAT?! Admit it, Crabtree, you're a Republican, through and through! You're not fooling anyone! You love Ann Coulter so much you two should like, just get married or something!

Hey everybody! Travis Crabtree's over here, and he's a Republican! Light 'em up boys! Let's GET HIM! Well, as soon as I'm doing having sex with myself, that is.

-SpinDozer

comment #32

SpinDozer says ...

'I AM A ...Do you need my social sec. number, credit score, address or anything else to verify the above statement?"

Actually, the only person interested in WHO you are is you. You seem to be under the impression that you offer some fresh perspective that other independents and especially democrats need, the reality is a bit different.

"And seriously, (and I do mean seriously), when the dust settles, so what?"

Smirking about people getting packed off to Guantanamo is a fair indicator of your ignorance and brutality. Are you trying to imply that if one is not sent to Guantanamo, its really no big deal? So, lesser things like financial losses, losing your job or having your reputation smeared, being thrown in "regular" jail and then complaining about it or complaining about it when it happens to others is whining? Or are you dumb enough to claim such things didn't happen?

"You have a point about quashing dissent. It's a little unsettling how you NEVER heard ANYONE speak out against Bush / Cheney / Iraq War."

You missed the point, its that one should be able to do so without Tony Snow saying they are not supporting the troops.

"You speak of childishness yet you see the world in the very us versus them framework that I mention several posts ago."

Pot meet Kettle. The vast majority of your posts are snarks pointing out the hypocracy/logical lapses of the left. More often than not, you have a rhetorical point but little else. If you think that right wing snarking is something this site needs or benefits by, you can and should go fuck yourself, the rest of us are well aware of what the asshole set are up to these days.

comment #33

SpinDozer says ...

'And don't lecture anyone on "demonizing". It's a tactic used by all sides all the time in politics. It's no less demonizing when it's done to someone you admire or support.'

What part of my comments on 'War Made Easy'
were you too stupid to comprehend. Are you not intelligent enough to understand I included Gingrich's memo from 1996 to illustrate that this specific demonization tactic was a GOP specialty? It didn't begin with Newt, but it was obviously their postion before Bush. Either wise up or grow up.

comment #34

Travis Crabtree says ...

When did you turn into D.Z.?

"everytime I come in here" I haven't been posting here that long.

And who are these people sent to Gitmo, regular jail, or who have had their lives ruined because they spoke out against the war?
Tim Robbins? Sean Penn? Olby? Schuster? Les Chics de Dixie? What jail are they in?
As far as Gitmo is concerned, right or wrong, it's filled with enemy combatants captured in Afghanistan and Iraq, not listeners to Air America....

And your "well, Republicans are meaner, and they started it!" is as lame and short-sighted as you are. (because nobody tried to smear Robert Bork or said bad things about Reagan)

Us versus Them, SpinDozer! Us versus Them!

BTW, keep an eye on that Jonah guy who posts here.... he SAYS he's a liberal / progressive but I'm not so sure.... and that actionman guy... anybody that loves action movies that much is worth watching... (I'll bet he likes John Milius!)

You're an idiot and I'll have no more of you. If I see you I shall punch you and make you cry. Now toss off.

comment #35

SpinDozer says ...

"everytime I come in here" I haven't been posting here that long.

Uh, great point. Who said you had? Do you have trouble concentrating or did you need an easy win and created the quote to meet that need?

You haven't posted long but you have posted stupidly and exclusively from the right wing buttsucker POV. You throw down that liberals don't stand up for themselves and tell the assholes to Go Fuck Themselves but when they do, you can't handle it.

"As far as Gitmo is concerned, right or wrong, it's filled with enemy combatants captured in Afghanistan and Iraq, not listeners to Air America."

You're on a roll. The flaws with this rhetorical position were addressed in comment 32. In fact your whole post is nothing but a right winger whining and blubbering cos someone had the audacity to point out they were a bit of a douche.

G'nite

comment #36

DeeZee says ...

Travis: "What happened to these supposed victims of BushCo's implied infamy? Are they still locked up in Guantanamo?"

Mostly.

"And who are these people sent to Gitmo, regular jail, or who have had their lives ruined because they spoke out against the war?"

How about Plame, Wilson, and Ritter, for starters?