comment #1

Jeffrey Wells says ...

I'm sorry to be alluding to possibly outdated notions of predatory neighborhoods influencing certain attitudes about what a dog is and does. But all my life I've embraced run-of-the-mill Leave It To Beaver/Old Yeller picket-fence attitudes about dogs, which are all about petting them, feeding them scraps at the dinner table, feeding them dry food, buying them plastic bones and playtoys, giving them shampoo baths, throwing sticks so they can run and retrieve, having them sit next to you as you work or watch TV, hugging them every day and crying when they die. I would never dream of having a dog of mine fight another dog and possibly kill or be killed. Horrific. Not in my DNA.

comment #2

corey3rd says ...

they'll boo him in philly

comment #3

Michael says ...

they'll boo him in philly

Going out on a limb, are we?

comment #4

Sabina E says ...

I'm with you on this, Wells... although I'm more of a cat person than dogs, I still love dogs and animals in general. It makes me sick that some human beings find nothing wrong with putting two dogs in a cage. Really, ANY TWO ANIMALS (let's not forget cockfights, too).

Animal cruelty pisses me off.

May the dumb fucker go DOWN!

comment #5

corey3rd says ...

philly fabs would rather have Charles Manson at QB than McNab. the get their 2nd choice now

comment #6

iheartsubtitles says ...

The irony in the matter is that those who "boo him" will probably have steaksub stains on their chin.

comment #7

Mr. Buckles says ...

If you want to consider animal rights, then Michael Vick is the best thing that ever happened to the issue. Having him on the field keeps people talking about it. Plus he can throw a football which makes him almost as important to society as someone like Brad Pitt (and don't talk to me about morality clauses in the NFL which really don't exist).

Drowing, electrocuting dogs seems harder to imagine than doing it to humans honestly - we have it coming. So, you know, I would have problems playing in a card game and relating with the dude.

Sadly, the conversation seems to be there so that people can both feel superior and outraged from the comfort of a couch - two things which we seem addicted to, no? Also, I see many people eating their value meal when they do this not thinking at all about the rights of animals in an industrial slaughter house.

Pigs I hear make nice animal friends - Babe is nice proof of that. Yet no one thinks twice about Babe - Pig in a slaughter house (granted we don't want to eat a dog).

I say to you sirs, get over yourselves and your convenient blindspots.

comment #8

Chicago48 says ...

They took a on-the-street poll in Chicago and everybody said he deserved a second chance. Now you must remember that dog fighting is practically a cultural thing growing up in the south, and it still is going on. Nobody says anything about that. So Vick grew up with it being an OK sport. And I believe he's remorseful, Jeff, not everybody wears their emotions on their sleeve.

comment #9

Chicago48 says ...

I feel sorry for black players who have to play before all / majority white sports audiences. Vick is walking into a mine field. I find that most white sports audiences are very unforgiving and they want their players to be Spartacus-like. Too bad.

comment #10

poseidon72 says ...

If he had to wait for the prison bars to close to realize he did wrong they he wil never get it. Any normal decent person would know that killing the first dog was an awful thing to do. Hundreds later just makes him a monster. Sorry Ive been watching the NFL my whole life and I believe in second chances but not in this case. If he gets a second change it should be in a Rob Zombie Halloween movie as the lead character not in the NFL.

comment #11

arch451 says ...

I agree with you, Mr. Buckles, that there is a contradiction in our cultural attitudes towards cruelty to animals. Most of the peope who are opposed to dog fighting also eat farm animals and walk around with animal skins on their body (in the form of leather.)

On the other hand, nothing is worse than killing an innocent human being, in my opinion. Drowning or electrocuting a human being is murder, and murder correctly refers exclusively to the killing of people. Killing animals for human benefit (even entertainment) is not even close to murder.

comment #12

Monument says ...

Vick kills a few dogs, goes to jail for a year and will be booed and harassed when he comes back on the field. Donte Stallworth drives drunk, kills a human being, gets 30 days and gets to come back next season. Will there be people booing and protesting his presence on the field? I doubt it.

We live in a world where there as much, if not more, human slavery and sex trafficking than there has ever been but what really gets people's panties in a twist are some dead dogs, dead whales, dead dolphins and John & Kate Plus 8.

comment #13

arch451 says ...

I think what it comes down to is that people don't value life, whether it is human or animal. They value cute and cuddly animals.

comment #14

p.Vice says ...

Who's worse - the man who's dumb enough to pull the trigger or the man who's smart enough to let him get away with it scot-free? Roger Goodell, sports writers, and pretty much anyone else who says Vick deserves a "second chance" or claim he is in any way being genuinely remorseful are the real villains in this story. They created and keep propagating a culture where it's perfectly okay to kill dogs, run people over drunk driving, cheat, use illegal drugs, beat your wife, act like a bling-bling douchebag, etc as long as you can throw a ball and keep entertaining the cretinous masses with life-of-luxury This-Is-The-American-Dream bullshit.

I'll tell you what Vick is remorseful about - losing his place in the spotlight and the accompanying paycheck. Now he's got them back like NOTHING EVER FUCKING HAPPENED.

That's America, folks!

comment #15

BoshBarnetWonkyDonkey says ...

There's no comparison to dog-fighting and the slaughter of animals for food. Don't be silly.

comment #16

corey3rd says ...

I've lived in the South for 34 years and I can assure you that dog fighting is not a cultural thing. NASCAR, Wrasslin and cross burnings are more Southern cultural events than Dog fighting. People around here hunt with their dogs - they don't like to have them tear each other apart.

Maybe this is a ghetto sport - I know of more dog fighting in california than my area.

Far as why people are upset, those that are into dog fighting like to go around and kidnap family pets to use as sparring partners. Odds are at least one Eagle season ticket holder has had their pooch stolen so it could be fresh meat for a dog fight training session.

comment #17

Mark says ...

"They created and keep propagating a culture where it's perfectly okay to kill dogs, run people over drunk driving, cheat, use illegal drugs, beat your wife, act like a bling-bling douchebag, etc as long as you can throw a ball and keep entertaining the cretinous masses with life-of-luxury This-Is-The-American-Dream bullshit."

Maybe the most needlessly incredulous statement to hit the board yet. Explain how it is perfectly OK. Most of these guys have gone to jail and/or have their contracts voided and been banned for a year. Imagine if Jeffrey driving home at 7am after a night from drinking, hit a jaywalker while going the speed limit, and then was prohibited from updated HE for a year after he got out of jail. Preventing him from making a living after he served his time would sound excessive, no?

Vick did not invent dog fighting. Yet find someone else involved in the world that lost more due to his/her involvement than Vick. Edward Kennedy was more negligent in his accident than Stallworth yet not punished at all.

comment #18

dinther says ...

The one who deserves as much blame as Vick is Roger Goodell. Maybe even more. After all, you can't blame Vick for taking advantage of the opportunities given him.

Goodell had an opportunity to send a message to players (and aspiring athletes) that if you screw up in a big enough way - if you're not a good person - you piss away your NFL chances. Period. Instead, he sent the message that no matter what you do, if you're a good enough athlete, the NFL will take you.

Every time you see one of those United Way ads with NFL players, kids, and good backlighting, remember what bullshit it all is. In place of that imagery, remember Vick and his gang laughing as a mangled dog dangles by his neck from a rope. Remember that Goodell and the NFL don't care about anything but your money.

comment #19

arch451 says ...

Hey BoshBarnetWonkyDonkey...first of all, you imply it is okay to slaughter a dog for food. If that is how you feel then I respect you. If not, then why do you value dogs over other animals like pigs?

Secondly, I want to know if you think it okay to torture an animal for food? The reason I ask is because that is how meat is generally mass-produced.

comment #20

Travis Crabtree says ...

Jeffrey nailed it.

I see it in L.A. all the time. Bullshit macho posturing. "My dog can kick your dog's ass. My truck can kick your truck's ass. (ya see? it's got silver balls hanging down) My girlfriend can kick you girlfriend's ass. I can kick your ass, just check out my tats."

comment #21

Travis Crabtree says ...

"he'll get booed in Philly"?

Ya think?

Dude, Santa Claus gets booed in Philly.

comment #22

BoshBarnetWonkyDonkey says ...

arch: I understand that the conditions are less than ideal in many mass-producing meat factories, but it's still not torture in the same way that dog fighting is. It's regrettable and there are ways to buy humanely produced meat, but still it's not in the same ballpark as having two dogs fight each other for sport.

Secondly, you're right that there's a heirarchy of animals in some people's affections. It's purely a cultural thing. Americans and most Europeans wouldn't dream of eating a dog, but Koreans apparently don't mind. That's fine by me. I can't get high and mighty about what meats to eat when I regularly chow down on animals that are sacred to other cultures. Each to his own.

comment #23

p.Vice says ...

Would you say that being a multi-millionaire professional athlete in the United States of America is a right or a privilege, Mark? Or maybe you disagree that it was BEING a multi-millionaire professional athlete that enabled and empowered Vick to do what he did. He used the money he earned from playing football and endorsements to fund the dog fighting. I have nothing against the man making a living. Playing football in the NFL making millions, however, is not "making a living".

How is it perfectly okay? Because he walked right out of jail onto a football field like nothing happened. His teammates don't care what he did because he can help them win games. The NFL doesn't care what he did because he can help them earn money. Look into the man's eyes - he is not sorry for anything except what he lost in the process, which is money and the ability to make more money. Which, by the way, was instantly handed back to him.

comment #24

DarthCorleone says ...

Travis >> Exactly. People in Philly boo their own kids at little league games. Thus, Philly seems like the perfect fit for me for Vick, if there is such a thing.

They cheered when Michael Irvin had a serious neck injury on their field. It was the first NFL city that was compelled to install a courtroom and a jail on the stadium's premises because their fans are so unruly and needed to be processed immediately on Sunday.

Have fun, Eagles fans.

comment #25

arch451 says ...

Hey BoshBarnetWonkyDonkey (if that is even your real name) I agree with everything you are saying except your assumption that dog fighting is worse torture than life and death in a factory farm.

If it was me, I would rather die in a fight, but maybe that's just me.

comment #26

Jonah says ...

First of all, please don't compare Donte Stallworth to Michael Vick. The reason there is more outrage over Vick is simple. What Stallworth did was horrible, but it was a mistake. How many of us have driven drunk? How many of us, if we were less lucky on those nights, could've killed somebody.

STallworth deserved more time, but it was a mistake and he took responsiblity.

What Vick did was much more sickening. It wasn't a one time thing. He systematically run an organization for torturing and killing dogs. And then even when he was pretty much caught, he lied about it.

Chicago48 said:
"I feel sorry for black players who have to play before all / majority white sports audiences. Vick is walking into a mine field. I find that most white sports audiences are very unforgiving and they want their players to be Spartacus-like. Too bad."

Closet racist.

comment #27

KC says ...

If you're still updating your spreadsheet I saw a black guy out with his wife walking a pair of adorable little bichon frises in my neighborhood yesterday. No spike collars or anything!

comment #28

mccool says ...

Sports really raises an interesting dilemma. A lot of my neighbors (all card-carrying union democrats , btw) are unapologetic racists ... on the one hand they'll cheer and cry for black athletes, on the other, they would disown their daughters if they ever brought home a boy of color.

Vick's interview was very telling, as Jeff noted. JB should have asked him how he could live with the sounds of a suffering animal, sounds that would haunt any normal person for a lifetime ... and ask him what must one be compensating for when taking aggression out on a defenseless animal.

Philly fans have done a lot more than boo. Around the corner from my house, someone torched an Eagles jersey and hung it to a street sign. I'm the carpetbagger of my neighborhood, literally the only one not born and raised in South Philly .... the rubes are NOT happy. Although once he starts scoring touchdowns, I'm sure all will be forgotten.

And then something really strange happened yesterday. A sickly looking female pit bull with scars all over her face was roaming the tiny walk-way alley behind my house. I gave her water and some chicken, but she was extremely wary of me. Dogs that dont trust people have been abused, no question. I'm thinking someone got scared about the attention Vick has brought to dog-fighting in the city and let her loose. Who the hell knows. Heart-breaking. And then my biddy fucking neighbors saw it and came out and started yapping "call the police!!" and scared her off.

comment #29

VictorLazlo says ...

Pitbulls, Bulldogs, Boxers, and breeds like them were bred for fighting. Dogfighting goes back hundreds of years. So does cockfighting and bullfighting. FIghting animals is a cruel evil thing that humans have done for thousands of years.

A year in jail, losing $130 million, filing for bankruptcy and having his name forever tainted is enough punishment. Should he be executed? Sent to prison for 10 more years? Never allowed to work in his chosen profession? The punishment he received fit the crime, regardless of how sorry he is. Do we want him on his knees with tears streaming down his face...

What do you guys want to see happen to Michael Vick?

I'm a black male and yes, dog fighting is more accepted among a certain set of us. I hate it, but come on, the running of the bulls in Spain and the sad conditions on corporate farms are A LOT worse than letting dogs do what they do naturally in the wild. (although Vick was a sick fuck for hanging and electrocuting dogs... just sick)

Oh and I own a poodle.

comment #30

VictorLazlo says ...

p.Vice:
"Look into the man's eyes - he is not sorry for anything except what he lost in the process"

I find this HILARIOUS.

Research how pigs are raised in tight cages on factory farms and tell me its not worse than dog fighting and then look into the eyes of the Oscar Meyer CEOs and see if he is sorry.

comment #31

Mark says ...

"Would you say that being a multi-millionaire professional athlete in the United States of America is a right or a privilege, Mark? Or maybe you disagree that it was BEING a multi-millionaire professional athlete that enabled and empowered Vick to do what he did."

Right or priveledge? Why label it either? It's an occupation and every single player has earned their position, without the help of nepotism or cronyism. I would argue that being a high-profile professional athlete is exactly what got Vick two years. This would not have become a federal matter, and had Vick been a construction manager, they may have plead this thing down to fines and probabtion.

Why is Vick's salary is relevant, btw? He should only be allowed to work if his salary is 5 digits?

comment #32

mccool says ...

Jonah -- good stuff. Drunk driving may fall short of murder--as it's trying to be categorized in certain states--but it's reckless and foreseeable, and should carry a stiffer penalty than 30 days. 10 years, maybe? Maybe more.

But, you're right, it was an accident...it's not evidence of any kind of sick or depraved behavior that was sustained over a long period of time. What Vick did speaks to an emptiness in his soul. It's almost evil. What Stallworth did was irresponsible, stupid and deadly ... but Stallworth will live with that guilt and regret for a single mistake the rest of his life, whereas Vick seems to have no remorse at all.

And please, all, get off your high horses about Philly fans. I grew up in NY and have lived in different parts of the country, and have seen boorish, drunken behavior EVERYWHERE. Sports fans, as a lot, are boorish....I've seen brawls at Shea, beer being dumped on a CHILD'S head by an Islanders fan at Nassau Coliseum because he was wearing a Rangers jersey. You've got the utter psychos that make up Raider Nation. It's not just here.

comment #33

Travis Crabtree says ...

Goddammit!!!

I HATE that Jonah wrote something that I completely agree with. I'll have to punch the wall now... (hang on)

Okay, I'm back. That's better.

Asshole.

(in other news)
If you really want your heart broken go visit an animal shelter in or near a high-ish crime neighborhood. You'll see dozens of really sweet, meek, docile pitbulls, abandoned because they never got that killer instinct or they weren't aggressive enough. They're lucky in the sense that they escaped being used as "baiters" but then of course they face the gas chamber when nobody adopts them. A little more humane, at least.

comment #34

Travis Crabtree says ...

Philly fans go out to the airport and boo safe landings.

comment #35

Mark says ...

is there a separate Tarantino link? i love reading people bitch about subjective lists. I'm surprised QT neglected Trainspotting on his.

comment #36

p.Vice says ...

Mark - Is, say, the Presidency of the United States "just an occupation" in your opinion? Calling professional athletics that is still a label, one that arrogantly and ignorantly assumes that athletes have no position of influence on anything or anyone. Yeah, right. And without nepotism or cronyism? Are you kidding? I guess having a superbowl-winning coach by the name of Tony Dungy in addition to NFL players publicly advocating for your return is just good ol' moral support.

PS to Lazlo - Are you seriously jumping on the "well, such-and-such is worse" bandwagon of prevarication? You're right that conditions on corporate concentration camps/farms are about as sick as it gets. So their mere existence makes Vick's actions unaccountable unto themselves? Hilarious is right.

comment #37

Mark says ...

"Is, say, the Presidency of the United States "just an occupation" in your opinion?"

Yes it is. One that is also earned. And Chappaquiddick neither prevented Kennedy from running, nor held him back from the nomination in 1980. (His faulty campaign did that.)

Your whole "position of influence" is edging closely to "what about the children??!!!" meaning I'm done with the argument. You win.

comment #38

Jonah says ...

It's a fucked up world, Travis.

comment #39

Floyd Thursby says ...

Odds of Vick being arrested for something else in next three years? 100%. He's a bum. He's also the product of a society that lets jocks get away with anything from the first moment they display some talent. I love sports, but most jocks are spoiled neanderthals.

comment #40

larry braverman says ...

Favorite t-shirt so far:

'Hide your Beagles - Vick's an Eagle'

comment #41

VictorLazlo says ...

p.Vice - Not jump on a "such and such is worse" bandwagon, I'm just saying some crimes have a finite shelf life where a certain amount of punishment is justice. Dog fighting is not on the level of murder or rape. 18 months of incarceration is the proper punishment in my view. As an added bonus he lost his entire fortune and seriously diminished the amount of money he will be able to make in the future.

Why establish prison sentences at all if people aren't able to rebuild their life after serving their time fair and square?

comment #42

VictorLazlo says ...

p.Vice

"So their mere existence makes Vick's actions unaccountable unto themselves? Hilarious is right."

Are you saying Vick has been held unaccountable for his actions?

comment #43

bents75 says ...

"Why establish prison sentences at all if people aren't able to rebuild their life after serving their time fair and square?"

I concur. I don't condone what the man did - but he was arrested, tried, imprisoned, and released. He should be able to go on and still live as a productive member of society whether he feels remorse for what he did or not because he paid his debt and any subjective interpretation of his motives or this BS analysis of his 'soul' is crap.

Not only is he in a good position to bring to light the cruelty of dog fighting, but he has a good chance at being a role model for the penal system itself. Just look at the percentage of young black men in the prison system, and then look at the percentage that get out, believe they have nothign left to contribute, return to a life of crime, and then end up right back in prison. There are revolving doors on all of them, and it's exactly because of this stigma placed on them the second they get out.

If 'even' someone who had millions of dollars and a lifetime of talent ahead of him can't rebuild his life - how the f' is someone who grew up on the corner and has a net worth of about $25 going to make something of himself?

With that said, for a nation that loves to claim it's Christian and yet understands virtually nothing about the tentants of Christianity, I don't find the lack of forgiveness very surprising at all.

Just my opinion though.

comment #44

DarthCorleone says ...

Travis >> The "safe landings" line was good.

comment #45

plastiqueelephant says ...

I still struggle to see how this was not a big fine and some community service over the summer sorta of deal for Vick. Sure, I like dogs plenty and wouldn't ever dogfight but I find it completely befuddling how people can't see the blinding hypocrisy in a meat eating society. In my book these two are completely analogous.

I eat a steak because it brings me immense pleasure, not because I need it for survival. I'll do veal or foi gras even though I know how horrible those baby cows and geese are treated. And I do it because of the pleasure it'll give me despite being aware of the immense pain and mistreatment subjected upon them. It's a very, very similar trade-off.

And by the way, don't the animal rights crusaders protesting against Vick look and sound awfully like the pro-life/anti-gay brigade? When there are so many things worth organizing over, seems pretty creepy to get so passionate about some dogs you've never even met.

comment #46

MovieBob says ...

To the "just a dog" or "blah blah but if you hit a human blah blah" people:

First, fuck you.

Secondly, you're not only assholes, you're assholes with a magnificient lack of understanding for what the guy actually did. We're not talking about Vick accidentally running a dog over, or maybe getting drunk/agitated and slugging his pet. Those would still be BAD, yes, but they'd also be more proper comparisons to the bullshit "so-and-so beat his girlfriend and still got to play" non-argument.

Dog-fighting guys do not just "beat" dogs. They starve them, torture them, maim them, psychologically abuse them, in many cases drug, drown and electrocute them; THEN they throw the resulting blood-crazed animals into a pit and make them brutall kill one-another for entertainment. This is what Michael Vick did, what he personally took part in, what he profited from. It's not just violence, it's methodical and depraved torture. It's much, MUCH worse and more indicative of a truly derranged mind than ANYTHING all the other ex-felons in the NFL were "up" for.

There's ZERO comparison to, say, Stallworth's hit-and-run/DUI. If Stallworth was keeping a pen full of starving homeless in his basement on a diet of scraps and random electrocutions in order to keep them "jumpy," then running them down in his backyard with the car while his homeboys put money on how long each would "last," THAT would be a comparison. Vick is scum, anyone who actually roots for the Eagles this year is a douchebag.

comment #47

Jonah says ...

MovieBob

Well done.

comment #48

Filthy Rich says ...

Moviebob: well said.

I think anyone who grab a dog and by the neck and slam him into the wall until he's dead has something very disturbing and sick going on inside his mind.

It shows his character alright: violent, disturbed and psychopathic tendencies, possessing a gleeful joy in inflicting pain.

And this will not be the last time we of him doing something violent like this. It's a sickness down to the soul and it's going to come out again. Whether against dogs - a species he will now have a vendetta against because he got caught abusing them - or against a human being. But I'm sure it will happen. Now or 5 years from now.

comment #49

Filthy Rich says ...

This interview segment is a glorified PR exercise: the faux probing and confrontational questions, the equivalent of lobbing a slow pitch for a set-up home run. I'm disappointed in 60 Minutes.

comment #50

boldnative says ...

"I eat a steak because it brings me immense pleasure, not because I need it for survival. I'll do veal or foi gras even though I know how horrible those baby cows and geese are treated. And I do it because of the pleasure it'll give me despite being aware of the immense pain and mistreatment subjected upon them."
-plastiqueelephant

So you knowingly engage in something for pleasure that causes another sentient living being immense pain? What's wrong with you?

And btw, murder means killing a person. Our ideas about who should be considered a person (i.e. someone with legal/moral rights) have changed throughout history. It wasn't too long ago in this country, and is still the case in some places throughout the world, that someone can be denied personhood because they're black or Jewish or female or for any other number of superficial reasons. So before we start claiming who can and cannot be murdered, we should take a moment to consider that the same statements were made by people about some of these other groups in the not-too-distant past and in the not-too-distant future such statements about non-human animals may sound just as ludicrous. Because you really have no proof that you have anything over other species as far as the right not be killed goes... the only arguments for it is that you have a soul and they don't (prove that!) or that might makes right. And we know from history how morally flawed the latter argument is.

comment #51

COCO says ...

I live in Houston....plenty of dog fighting in this area....sick.....very sick.....I have no patience for
people who do this....promote it...raise the dogs.....
train the animals.....bet money......fucking get some
help.....too many other things to do in life......
help a charity if you have extra energy or time.....
I gave money to 5 different groups....donate blood and I want to do more....am working on that.

comment #52

free games says ...

The irony in the matter is that those who "boo him" will probably have steaksub stains on their chin.