Ya Gotta Believe

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Who in their right minds would want to watch, let alone Netflix or buy, the forthcoming Bluray of John Wayne's The Green Berets when it streets on 1.10.10? The only star-fortified Hollywood film that was wholly supportive of the U.S.war effort in Vietnam, The Green Berets (directed by Wayne and released in July 1968) became legendary for its ludicrousness -- a turgid propaganda film that screamed "reality detachment!" at every turn.

It's set in Vietnam, of course, and is basically about a special Green Beret mission to capture a North Vietnamese general. (Or so I recall.) It feels informed by 1950s war movie cliches -- totally divorced from the raggedy look and feel of the war as portrayed by Oliver Stone in Platoon, and not even imagining, much less trying for, the operatic psychedelia that Francis Coppola brought to Apocalypse Now. It is, however, a dream -- a dream taking place in John Wayne's head. It's one of Roger Ebert's most-hated flicks -- a "heavy-handed, remarkably old-fashioned film," he wrote.

There are no Platoon-type lefties or complainers or pot-smokers in the Green Beret ranks, of course. We're talking serious commandos who don't fool around, which means no Willem Dafoe-ish Jesus-type sergeants either. All of the American good guys (including Wayne, Jim Hutton, Bruce Cabot and Aldo Ray) are older, beefier, sentimental, right-minded lunks who love Vietnamese kids and energetically dispense medicine to the peasants. The only lefty is an anti-war journalist, played by David Janseen, although he comes around during the third act.

Nothing seems remotely authentic in The Green Berets. The gulps and wrongos and what-the-fuckos come fast and furious. Because Wayne filmed it in Fort Benning, Georgia, there are white birch and pine trees in the Vietnam jungle. And the Asian-American actors Wayne hired to play South Vietnamese military intelligence advisors don't look even a bit Vietnamese. (They represent a midway point between actual Vietnamese and Marlon Brando 's Sakini in Teahouse of the August Moon) I recall a line in Pauline Kael's review about how the North Vietnamese general "mews" like a kitten when Wayne's team takes him prisoner. (Which happens just before he's about to have his way with a slinky Asian hottie inside a plantation villa.) Really, it's one hoot after another.

So again, honestly -- who would want to spend two hours with this thing? Is someone at Warner Home Video trying to get people thinking about what a certain-to-fail fiasco our Afghanistan mission is?

DVD Beaver's Gary Tooze has recounted the film's troubled production and distribution history:

"Long before box office or critical response became a factor, Wayne had different worries prior to production. He needed some of the resources of the Pentagon to make his film as realistic as possible, but the military brass at the Pentagon were no fans of the 1965 national bestseller on which the movie was based. Robin Moore's collection of short stories called 'The Green Berets' portrayed the crack commando unit as lawless, sadistic, and racist. Moore, who plays a cameo in the film and claimed to have trained as a Green Beret, stated that these attributes were the signs of 'real men.'

"A feature-length, big budget movie that was to be based on such a depiction of the American military elite made the Pentagon quite nervous. Naturally, Pentagon officials demanded changes to the script before Wayne and company were granted access to Fort Benning, Georgia, with all its modern hardware at their disposal.

"These conflicts in pre-production, as well as normal shooting delays, hampered the film's release until July, 1968, a full six months after the Communists' Tet Offensive, which was the beginning of the end for an American victory in Vietnam. The delayed release proved unfortunate since The Green Berets arrived on the heels of the notorious My Lai massacre in March, 1968, an incident which seriously undermined the film's credibility."

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Posted by Jeffrey Wells on December 28, 2009 at 1:00 PM

comment #1

lazespud says ...

My dad, who can be as gung ho as the best of them, just laughs when he see's this movie. He served in both Vietnam and was stationed in Ft. Benning; he says they didn't really do a single thing to disguise the fact that it was being filmed in Ft. Benning. It just looks absolutely nothing like Vietnam.

I always like my conservative actors best when they don't feel compelled to make a "political picture" to support their personal beliefs. About the only movies that come to mind that are worse than this one are Zucker and Kelsey Grammer's American Carol and that awful creationism documentary by Ben Stein.

Posted by lazespud at December 28, 2009 2:42 PM

comment #2

Glenn Kenny says ...

Don't forget the shot at the end, wherein the sun sets in the East. Brilliant.

I, for one, cannot wait for this.

Posted by Glenn Kenny at December 28, 2009 2:42 PM

comment #3

Gaydos says ...

Still amazed to see this came out in the summer of 68. In the summer of 69, I sat through it twice in order to watch "The Wild Bunch" three times on the day it opened in Riverside, California.

That my friends, is the hallmark of a great film.

The Peckinpah, of course.

The Wayne film was clearly ludicrous torture and time has not improved it.

I saw it recently on TV and all I could think was how perfect Janssen was as a pitchman for headache formulas. He looked like a headache. Not a bad actor, but boy did he seem uncomfortable in that right-wing claptrap.

Posted by Gaydos at December 28, 2009 3:09 PM

comment #4

corey3rd says ...

who would buy this? Mr. Sulu's husband.

Posted by corey3rd at December 28, 2009 3:29 PM

comment #5

reverent and free says ...

The delayed release proved unfortunate since The Green Berets arrived on the heels of the notorious My Lai massacre in March, 1968, an incident which seriously undermined the film's credibility."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

People forget this, but while the My Lai massacre indeed occurred in March of 1968, because of the Army's cover-up the public didn't find out about it until November of '69 when Seymour Hersh broke the story that Lt. Calley had been charged. His court martial was ironically held in Fort Benning.

Posted by reverent and free at December 28, 2009 3:29 PM

comment #6

Jude-the-Obtuse says ...

Clumsy, cheap and doltish in its execution. No argument.

However, if rejecting the movie on grounds of unacceptable political propagandising, then you really have to lump in Wayne's entire war movie catalogue - the message remains the same, only the ethnicities change.

I prefer to keep in mind that Wayne avoided the WW2 draft, dismiss the silly brainwashing with the contempt it deserves and enjoy the dumb nostalgic fun.

Hard to do with this one though.

Posted by Jude-the-Obtuse at December 28, 2009 3:36 PM

comment #7

Charlie Meadows says ...

As a fan of unintentional comedy, I am very excited to watch The Green Berets in full. Watching clips from it in my high school film class made me laugh very hard. Maybe now it can be the midnight movie phenomenon it deserves to be.

Posted by Charlie Meadows at December 28, 2009 3:59 PM

comment #8

DeeZee says ...

Jeff: So in other words, it was the Avatar of its day? BTW, not that I'm going to question your argument about the authenticity of the film, but I don't remember Vietnam being fought in a warehouse, even though that's how they portray it in FMJ. Plus, the Kubrick movie never once mentions the draft, which always pissed me off.

"Is someone at Warner Home Video trying to get people thinking about what a certain-to-fail fiasco our Afghanistan mission is?"

What? But according to Rambo III, we won the war in Afghanistan!

Posted by DeeZee at December 28, 2009 4:39 PM

comment #9

Moises Chiullan says ...

I will take this bullet in the name of Hollywood Elsewhere, since they're sending it to me and I've always been curious just how bad it is.

Posted by Moises Chiullan at December 28, 2009 4:40 PM

comment #10

LexG says ...

Who would buy this?

John "Dirty Harry" Nolte of Big Hollywood, for one, is GUARANTEED to have this shit on pre-order.

Posted by LexG at December 28, 2009 4:52 PM

comment #11

Duggan says ...

The first half is dumd fun, the film reaches it's high point with the attack on Wayne's base by the "Cong". After that the movie grinds to a halt with a stupid mission "behind enemy lines" which pretty much takes the fun out of the movie

Posted by Duggan at December 28, 2009 5:10 PM

comment #12

lens darkly says ...

If you want to know who would watch this you need only browse through some of the Amazon customer reviews:

I wish we could go back to the days when Hollywood supported the military, the way this movie does. The thing that bothers me most about the Vietnam war is that we could have won it. North Vietnamese Generals have admitted as such, in documentaries. But widespread treason was committed by our left-wing media, and the leftist Hollywood types.

Posted by lens darkly at December 28, 2009 5:26 PM

comment #13

shanes5 says ...

lens darkly, we could have won it? Please name for me one war where the invadingtraditional military conquered a defending guerilla force.

Posted by shanes5 at December 28, 2009 6:03 PM

comment #14

The Winchester says ...

Calm down, Shane, that's one of the Amazon customer reviews.

Posted by The Winchester at December 28, 2009 6:15 PM

comment #15

TulseLuper says ...

LexG: That's the first thing I thought of.

Posted by TulseLuper at December 28, 2009 6:17 PM

comment #16

berg says ...

I saw this in 1968, and the color of the blood squibs was so red paint red ... I am sure the blu-ray preserves this?

Posted by berg at December 28, 2009 6:39 PM

comment #17

berg says ...

I saw this in 1968, and the color of the blood squibs was so red paint red ... I am sure the blu-ray preserves this?

Posted by berg at December 28, 2009 6:39 PM

comment #18

Sean Means says ...

Pro-military, "reality detachment" flag wavers? Sounds like any Tea Party protest to me. This disc will clean up with the same crowds that bought Sarah Palin's book.

Posted by Sean Means at December 28, 2009 6:43 PM

comment #19

Gordon27 says ...

somethin' happened to the title, Jeff, it's all fuct.

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 6:54 PM

comment #20

Gordon27 says ...

"browse through some of the Amazon customer reviews:"

I like that quote, where he apparently thinks that "documentaries" aren't part of the vast left-wing media bias.

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 7:26 PM

comment #21

Phreaker says ...

I think the cat must have walked on the keyboard and saved the post.

Posted by Phreaker at December 28, 2009 7:30 PM

comment #22

DeeZee says ...

Kind of sad when TF 2 loses fan-rankings to dances with vampires.
http://tinyurl.com/yk7wrlu
Top 10 sleeper hits of the "noughties".
http://tinyurl.com/ykkwcvm
AFI flip-flops on Avatar, and drinks the Cameron kool-aid.
http://tinyurl.com/yl89j3d
Roman's fans apparently care more about his well-being than for that of his victim.
http://tinyurl.com/yjheytp
According to http://www.darkhorizons.com/news/15981/a-team-capt-america-eric-brevig-news,
Mr. T is a little uncomfortable with being in A-Team remake;
The Journey to the Center of the Earth Guy is directing a movie about the Korean War; and Joe Johnston's next gig is Captain America.
THR talks to Reitman @ http://tinyurl.com/ykanlhe
and Christian McKay @ http://tinyurl.com/yjxk74n .

Posted by DeeZee at December 28, 2009 8:04 PM

comment #23

DeeZee says ...

Oh, and the New Bev's January line-up.
http://www.newbevcinema.com/calendar.cfm

Posted by DeeZee at December 28, 2009 8:05 PM

comment #24

Gordon27 says ...

DZ is a cowardly scumbag who guaranteed us all that 'Avatar' couldn't possibly make more than $130 million, and still can't bring himself to admit that it has. He's so childish that he can't simply say "I was wrong", and such an asshole that he feels the need to derail every thread, either by jumping in the middle of conversations to insult me, or by doing two or three posts worth of links, always pretending that the second (and third) are just ones he "forgot" to add.

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 8:21 PM

comment #25

Gordon27 says ...

Correction; he has now said that he was wrong about Avatar -- he says that claiming it would only make 'Speed Racer' numbers was over-estimating its appeal with people.

I couldn't believe he really said that.

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 8:40 PM

comment #26

DeeZee says ...

Gordon: Stop being a grammar-nazi and start contributing something interesting to the fucking thread already. I gave an inch, and you're still out for blood, which is the real reason why I don't admit any of my weaknesses to petty little bitches like yourself.

Posted by DeeZee at December 28, 2009 8:54 PM

comment #27

Renfield says ...

Fight! Fight!

Posted by Renfield at December 28, 2009 9:09 PM

comment #28

Wiggumx says ...

DeeZee: After all of the crazy things you've said over the years, and after the COUNTLESS times you've hijacked a thread with your stupid links, you actually have the nerve to call someone else a petty bitch? That's rich.

Especially when you say "start contributing something interesting to the fucking thread already" in a thread you've already attempted to hijack.

Gordon: Where did he admit being wrong? I missed it.

Posted by Wiggumx at December 28, 2009 9:13 PM

comment #29

Gordon27 says ...

"Stop being a grammar-nazi"

Here's the quote; can anybody tell me that my interpretation of this quote [that he's saying he overestimated its appeal] is nitpicky?

"I overestimated the tolerance level of the general public's desire to see pompous and unoriginal crap".

That's basic English, DZ. You said it, not me.

"start contributing something interesting to the fucking thread already"

Lets look at our respective contributions:
Me: I responded to post 20, and also pointed out that something has gone wrong with the title of the thread (subsequent to it being posted, when it was fine)
You: you contributed an insult to Avatar that had nothing to do with the thread, an insult to Rambo III that had nothing to do with the thread, and your standard batch of stupid links that had nothing to do with the thread.

In fact, I can honestly say that I've never once seen you contribute anything on-topic to a thread unless the thread was already talking about Avatar or Quentin Tarantino, at which point you try to derail the thread with your nonsense ill-informed opinions.

"I gave an inch, and you're still out for blood"

What the fuck are you talking about? DZ, you have this bizarre concept of yourself as being put upon; you created the situation by predicting something that only an idiot would believe, and then spent two weeks insulting and making fun of everybody who disagreed with your prediction (which was everybody). And now, when the movie has already grossed 4x your maximum total in 10 days, you are too much of a little bitch to simply say "Yeah, I guessed wrong."

There is no inch to give; it's a simple binary proposition (I know you know all about those, because everything in your world is black-or-white, flop-or-hit (really flop-or-disappointment)). You were wrong about Avatar, yet you continue to claim that you were correct about Avatar. You have given no inch on this, you *still* claim to have been right.

"which is the real reason why I don't admit any of my weaknesses to petty little bitches like yourself. "

You know, if some people called me a "petty bitch", I'd think twice about my behavior. But your opinion has been consistently proven to be absolutely incorrect. So I'm pretty sure you thinking I'm a "petty bitch" is a good thing. Now, this is completely separate from your own petty nitpicking bullshit (like every post you made responding to me yesterday, when you were so desperate to try to prove me wrong at anything so you could feel better about yourself that your argued that "shitty knock-off" was not a fair summary of "inspiring a bunch of bullshit" or whatever you said).

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 9:22 PM

comment #30

Gordon27 says ...

Wig - in the 'Effusion' thread, scroll down to the bottom; he said that he was wrong because he over-estimated how much people would want to see it.

Now, this is still somewhat progressive for DZ, who usually can't admit that he's wrong at all. But it's pretty ironic for him to get his own admission that he was wrong so very very wrong. It's pathological; I see him like Fonzie at a keyboard, trying to type "Wrong" but he can't do it, his fingers freeze up, so he starts to say that he under-estimated it (a reasonable concession, though, of course, he has to spend five more lines insulting a movie he never saw based on what he decided it was before it came out, never realizing his inability to see the movie clearly is directly connected to his stupid predictions), and his fingers won't let him and his brain overrides it and he types "over-estimated" and feels satisfied with that.

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 9:24 PM

comment #31

DeeZee says ...

Wiggum: I rest my case.

Posted by DeeZee at December 28, 2009 9:25 PM

comment #32

Terry McCarty says ...

Since THE GREEN BERETS was set around 1963 in the U.S.-as-advisories period, it would make a fascinating double bill with GO TELL THE SPARTANS.

Posted by Terry McCarty at December 28, 2009 9:59 PM

comment #33

BurmaShave says ...

So we're looking for older conservative men who have disposable income and think that we could have won the Vietnam War. Sigh, if only there were a place called America.

Posted by BurmaShave at December 28, 2009 9:59 PM

comment #34

Terry McCarty says ...

lazespud wrote:
I always like my conservative actors best when they don't feel compelled to make a "political picture" to support their personal beliefs.

Assuming you haven't seen Wayne's 1952 BIG JIM McLAIN--where he and James Arness go after the Commies in Hawaii. It's a sort of primal scream against the act of taking the Fifth Amendment.

Posted by Terry McCarty at December 28, 2009 10:04 PM

comment #35

Gordon27 says ...

"I rest my case."

And, judging by every response to every post you've made in the past week, the jury has found you 100% wrong about 'Avatar', in every conceivable way, and the sentence that has already passed is that you have to say that you were wrong. You're the one who keeps trying to appeal that decision, because you can't just say you were wrong.

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 10:08 PM

comment #36

Gordon27 says ...

"Who in their right minds would want to watch, let alone Netflix or buy, the forthcoming Bluray of John Wayne's The Green Berets when it streets on 1.10.10? "

Judging from the pre-order stats on Amazon, it's doing 'Rio Bravo' business. Admittedly, this is sad, but there's clearly a market among John Wayne fans for this movie.

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 10:14 PM

comment #37

reverent and free says ...

The movie that gave the red meat lovers their tonic wasn't really this one, but Patton. It did it one better by taking them nostalgically back to WWII as an escape from Vietnam. Not surprisingly, it was Nixon's favorite film.

Posted by reverent and free at December 28, 2009 10:50 PM

comment #38

DeeZee says ...

More "best of the decade" stuff from RT. Though Iron Monkey came out a decade earlier...
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/juno/news/1861944/rts_best_of_the_decade

Posted by DeeZee at December 28, 2009 10:52 PM

comment #39

Gordon27 says ...

Hey, stop being such a fucking idiot and contribute to the thread already, you petty little bitch!

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 11:05 PM

comment #40

Marty Melville says ...

I almost wanna buy the damn thing for that great cover art, courtesy of Frank McCarthy, the poster artist for THE DIRTY DOZEN, Bond films and probably countless Man's Life magazine covers.

Posted by Marty Melville at December 28, 2009 11:17 PM

comment #41

Gordon27 says ...

Marty - you could buy the poster on-line and it would be cheaper than a Blu-Ray.

http://www.movieposter.com/poster/MPW-17679/Green_Berets.html

I actually like the drawing better in this context anyway.

Posted by Gordon27 at December 28, 2009 11:19 PM

comment #42

DeeZee says ...

Anyone want to pay a reality tv tax?
http://tinyurl.com/yhd5tzn

Posted by DeeZee at December 29, 2009 12:45 AM

comment #43

Gordon27 says ...

That's usually the sort of thing you'd say would affect the grosses of 'Avatar', and probably Tarantino's chances of getting nominated for Best Director, but I don't see what it has to do with the topic of 'The Green Berets', DZ.

Posted by Gordon27 at December 29, 2009 1:06 AM

comment #44

Movie Watcher says ...

I wonder if LBJ watched it while he was still in office.

Posted by Movie Watcher at December 29, 2009 1:38 AM

comment #45

Bob Hightower says ...

I crossed a picket line of University of Wisconsin students in Madison to see it in a theater in 1968. I carried my own picket sign reading "I Love John Wayne." But the movie was so bad that I left before it was over.

Posted by Bob Hightower at December 29, 2009 2:38 AM

comment #46

actionman says ...

Hey Terry -- I watched Spartans and Green Berets in college while I was taking a course called "Hollywood and Vietnam." We didn't watch them back to back on the same night, but back to back one week (class) a part. Both of the films are shameless on so many levels.

Posted by actionman at December 29, 2009 5:38 AM

comment #47

George Prager says ...

I saw HELLFIGHTERS on TV once thinking it was THE GREEN BERETS. THE quintessential Wayne movie of this period is MCQ. Makes DIRTY HARRY look like MEDIUM COOL.

Posted by George Prager at December 29, 2009 6:25 AM

comment #48

C is for cookie says ...

Burma, a high five for post 33 -- one of the best spontaneous laughs I've had in a while.

Gordon -- as crazy as I've found DZ at times I think you need to move on. Remember what Barney Frank said to the dipshit woman at the town hall meeting and leave it at that. You're just stressing yourself out waiting for Godot at this point.

And back to Green Berets -- my dad, who was a conservative, John Wayne-loving Vietnam Vet -- thought the movie was absolute bullshit. And George, you know what movie he would point out as a better Wayne film from the period? McQ! As a result I always had a soft spot for that movie. The scene where he first tries out the assault rifle is forever burned in my memory as a favorite of childhood viewing.

It's partially because of my childhood fondness for McQ that I love the episode of The Simpsons where Dennis Weaver voices a cowboy actor who unspools an episode of a cop show he made in the 70s and says "all I really did in it was shoot hippies".

I do loves me some John Wayne. His private life aside, I have a moviegoing weak spot for someone who solves problems the old-fashioned way. With violence.

Posted by C is for cookie at December 29, 2009 7:46 AM

comment #49

Terry McCarty says ...

Re George Prager's post:
I remember McQ and its spiritual sequel BRANNIGAN quite well.

Posted by Terry McCarty at December 29, 2009 12:20 PM

comment #50

Benny Coleman says ...

It definitely seems to belong to the same group as We Were Soldiers. (I remember one of the far right wing advisers who served at Vietnam denying Oliver Stone's version of 'Nam in the run up to the film's release) A film only Glenn Beck and Co would love.

Posted by Benny Coleman at December 29, 2009 2:02 PM

comment #51

AtticusRex says ...

Ok... I've read all the posts here... and I have a question and a take on the matter of this looming release...

1. Why do those who oppose the 'Right' always condemn their movies? Doesn't a Conservative have the right to make their own films from their point of view? Oliver 'Lefty' Stone does and so do so many others. So stop bashing a movie because you don't buy into it's politics.

2. On the other hand please feel free to bash any movie you don't like for the reasons that should stem from it's acting, script and production. On that we can discuss a film's merit or lack there off.

3. That all said... The Green Beret is a terrible movie. It is right up there with Big Jim Mclain , Blood Alley, The Conqueror, The Barbarian and the Geisha, Legend of the Lost and yes The Alamo as his worst film. He really shouldn't have directed. Not a good director at all. Actor? Fine in the right hands as witnessed by The Searchers, Man Who Shot LIberty Valance, Red River, and The Shootist. I could have mentioned other great Wayne movies but I was just focusing on those where his acting was stellar.

Posted by AtticusRex at December 29, 2009 4:01 PM

comment #52

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comment #53

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