might be the first war on terrorism film that is a hit

I'm just curious, since you don't like Gitmo, what would you do with the people there?

Harry: Free them, after giving them a fair trial?

What about before the trial? What would you do with them?

Lock them up in a regular prison?

Hopefully it won't follow the path of Porky's II: The Next Day and try to squeeze in a "message."

The first film was a (very enjoyable) stoner comedy but it made a subtle point about the casual racism that the protagonists faced. Through the film the protagonists were abused and dissed by a bunch of dickhead jocks and they were also were the victims of police racial profiling.

Now the film was a comedy first but there the critique of American racism was noticeable. So I would not dismiss the possibility that the film might have a background critique of American torture. Maybe it’ll be the stoner comedy version of “Taxi to the Dark Side”.

So, you'd give them all the rights of an American citizen and put them in the same prisons?

Sorry but my computer botched my post. It should have read:

The first film was a (very enjoyable) stoner comedy but it made a subtle point about the casual racism that the protagonists faced. During the film the protagonists were abused and dissed by a bunch of dickhead jocks and they were were the victims of police racial profiling.

Now the film was a comedy first but the critique of American racism was noticeable. So I would not dismiss the possibility that the film might have a background critique of American torture. Maybe it will be the stoner comedy version of "Taxi to the Darkside"

Harry: That's what the Geneva Convention entails, doesn't it?

"So, you'd give them all the rights of an American citizen and put them in the same prisons?"

Assuming we invaded the country to liberate and democratize by force or by example?

If a sweep rounds up innocents who are denied even the most basic rights to a trial, how is that a boon for democracy?

You have to be in uniform to be covered by the Geneva Conventions. So, no.

I'm just curious what the liberal would do. Genuinely curious.

"So, you'd give them all the rights of an American citizen and put them in the same prisons?"

Why not? To paraphrase from Ron White, if they are guilty, what better punishment than to have them face years of licking jelly from K-Dog's fire exit?

Harry: "You have to be in uniform to be covered by the Geneva Conventions."

So, by that logic, Saddam's torture chambers were fine and dandy.

This is a very bad name for a comedy sequel.

These movies are supposed to be funny?

"I'm just curious what the liberal will do. Genuinely curious."

Well, Harry, it's entirely likely that about a year from now you'll actually find out.

How do you like THEM apples?

Too true, Glenn. Too true.

Of course, McCain wants gitmo detainees here as well, so I'll probably get it either way.

D.Z., what would you have done with Goering and Himmler?

Our future:

1) Major al-Qaeda terrorists are tried in civilian court and freed by dimwit jurors a la OJ.

2) FISA is never revised and our intelligence gathering goes dark.

3) A major attack kills thousands of Americans. It turns out to have been plotted by some of the people we let free, and to have been stoppable if we'd continued surveillance of the participants already in the US.

4) DZ blames it on Bush's failure to adequately safeguard Americans before the heroic President Obama could fully transform world relations.

Good thing you're not an alarmist or anything, Mgmx.

"Holy crikey, George W. Bush is leaving the White House! Obama is gonna let all the inmates free and give abortions to every woman in the country! Terrorists are going to attack us again and it'll be 9/11 times a million! AHHHHH, anarchy!"

Come on dude, you really think the world is going to be turned upside down?

Mgmax: "D.Z., what would you have done with Goering and Himmler?"

What we did with the rest of 'em? Give them a fair trial? Though I wouldn't recruit them for our NASA program, when it became convenient...

"Major al-Qaeda terrorists are tried in civilian court and freed by dimwit jurors a la OJ."

Tim McVeigh and that Egyptian guy who blew up the WTC didn't get free.

"FISA is never revised and our intelligence gathering goes dark."

FISA still works as is; the President just isn't allowed to invade our privacy. Anyway, a guy who didn't act on a terrorist warning when Clinton gave it to him is not really an effective judge of intelligence.

"A major attack kills thousands of Americans. It turns out to have been plotted by some of the people we let free,"

That's weird, because the people who were still on international most wanted lists were aided and abetted by George's brother...

"and to have been stoppable if we'd continued surveillance of the participants already in the US."

Funny that with all the surveillance of phones, they still can blow up our nuclear power plants.

"DZ blames it on Bush's failure to adequately safeguard Americans before the heroic President Obama could fully transform world relations."

Yep, and?

It'll be interesting to see if the "too-sooners" who avoided UNITED 93 will be subconsciously drawn to H&K so they can see 'terrists' being violated.

Noah, given that both of my preconditions are happening right now, and that multiple terrorist acts have taken place in the past, I'm about as "alarmist" as someone pointing out Germany was rearming in 1937.

D.Z., I thought of you while reading Bill Kristol in The Paper of Record today:

Having controlled the executive branch for 28 of the last 40 years, Republicans tend to think of themselves as the governing party — with some of the arrogance and narrowness that implies, but also with a sense of real-world responsibility. Many Democrats, on the other hand, no longer even try to imagine what action and responsibility are like. They do, however, enjoy the support of many refined people who snigger at the sometimes inept and ungraceful ways of the Republicans.

"You will not be saved by General Motors or the pre-fabricated
house.
You will not be saved by dialectic materialism or the Lambeth
Conference
You will not be saved by Vitamin D or the expanding universe.
In fact, you will not be saved."

"Nightmare, With Angels," by Stephen Vincent Benet

Mgmax, ever hear of the Nuremberg Trials?
And what was Hirohito's punishment?

In late 1943, during the Tripartite Dinner Meeting at the Tehran Conference, the Soviet leader, Joseph Stalin, proposed executing 50,000-100,000 German staff officers. Not realizing that Stalin was serious, U.S. President Franklin D. Roosevelt joked that perhaps 49,000 would do. Churchill denounced the idea of "the cold blooded execution of soldiers who fought for their country." However, he also stated that war criminals must pay for their crimes and that in accordance with the Moscow Document which he himself had written, they should be tried at the places where the crimes were committed. Churchill was vigorously opposed to executions "for political purposes."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Trials

All this fuss over Harold and Kumar? Gads.

"given that both of my preconditions are happening right now, and that multiple terrorist acts have taken place in the past, I'm about as "alarmist" as someone pointing out Germany was rearming in 1937."

First of all, there will always be terrorism because there has always been terrorism (and it's been called that for at least a century, typified by the Russian Revolution). Obama (or Hillary) will make sure that homeland security is taken care, I'm sure. You really think they want to be the fuck-ups that let another huge terrorist attack happen?

Secondly, you gotta stop with these sweeping statements that compare America to Germany in 1937. Different scenario completely and utterly worthless in discourse. You are being alarmist by buying into this fear that something terrible will happen if there isn't a Republican in the White House. This country will go on, whoever is elected, because the priorities of both major parties include staving off terrorist attacks.

Mgmax: "I'm about as "alarmist" as someone pointing out Germany was rearming in 1937."

It's more like you're alarmist as Musharraf is against the prospect that Pakistan might vote his ass out of office....

"Many Democrats, on the other hand, no longer even try to imagine what action and responsibility are like."

They certainly would imagine action and responsibility, when it comes to a a broken levee and a bridge and poisoned dog food...

"D.Z., what would you have done with Goering and Himmler?"

The main Nuremberg trials of the most important war criminals among the Nazi leadership were finished by October 1946, a year and a half after Germany surrendered. The second set of trials of lesser war criminals were finished by April 1949, 4 years after the German surrender.

In 1951, 6 years after the end of the war, the US high commissioner for Germany reduced many of the longer prison sentences, converted some of the death sentences to prison sentences, and granted an amnesty to release many prisoners.

All of this after publicly open trials that were completed within 4 years of the war's end. All of this was accomplished without use of torture.

Next month will be 5 years after Bush invaded Iraq. In May it will be 5 years after Rumsfeld announced the end of major combat operations in Afghanistan. In May it will be 5 years after Bush's Mission Accomplished flight and speech.

The fact is, Guantanamo and the military tribunals are far more similar to the Nuremberg trials than either is to the full rights of American citizens, which no military power has ever accorded to enemy forces, let alone to terrorists focused on civilian populations and violating every other rule of war conduct (Geneva, etc.) which you would have us extend to them. Arguments that Nuremberg was a model we're violating now are simply ignorant.

It is not wrong to say that a consistent application of your views in 1945-6 would have led to the freeing of men who richly deserved death, and quite possibly, to their re-emergence against us in some fashion in Germany or other parts of the world.

Nemo, if we'd wanted the war to be over in five minutes, it could have been, horrifically. Demanding the gentlest possible war and then complaining it's taking longer than total war is hypocrisy.

"They certainly would imagine action and responsibility, when it comes to a a broken levee..."

Yep, Mayor Nagin and Kathleen Blanco did a bang-up job.

Here's where the crazed neo-con logic falls apart and dies:
Not every person in Guatanamo is a terrorist. And the distinction that the right wing is unable to make is between those Iraqis that may have not embraced our illegal invasion and those that swept into the country after our bungled invasion. It's a sad distinction to make, but it exists along with all the other technicalities.

And so Mgmax, you're now defending the USA freeing Nazis who wanted to kill Jews and enslave the world. I Mean, we did hire some of their best and brightest for our rocket programs. Ironic, huh?

Mgmax: "The fact is, Guantanamo and the military tribunals are far more similar to the Nuremberg trials"

This assumes that Nuremberg was based on rounding up random German people who happened to be on the battlefield.

"It is not wrong to say that a consistent application of your views in 1945-6 would have led to the freeing of men who richly deserved death, and quite possibly, to their re-emergence against us in some fashion in Germany or other parts of the world."

The problem is that we don't know who "deserves" death; we just assume.

Josh: "Yep, Mayor Nagin and Kathleen Blanco did a bang-up job."

It's kind of tough for them to do any better, when Bush ignores their warnings, because their constituents are black...

"It's kind of tough for them to do any better, when Bush ignores their warnings..."

If it wasn't obvious by now, this proves D.Z. knows absolutly nothing about what he speaks.

It took Bush pleading with Nagin at the last minute to order an evacuation in the first place. And let's not forget that when Bush offered to call up more National Guard, Blanco said "Give me 24 hours to think about it".

"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." - George Bush

And please don't forget the video of Bush being heavily warned the day before that the levy could be "topped" -- that means overflowing. Bush thought about it and immediately went into action to find a guitar to play.

Nevermind that the flooding of NO was already listed by FEMA as the third worst disaster that could befall America. It takes real vision to ignore all of that in a post 9/11 world.
I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees."

And please don't forget the video of Bush being heavily warned the day before that the levy could be "topped" -- that means overflowing. Bush thought about it and immediately went into action to find a guitar to play.

Nevermind that the flooding of NO was already listed by FEMA as the third worst disaster that could befall America. It takes real vision to ignore all of that in a post 9/11 world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4765058.stm

Uh...you know what I meant.

It is screening in San Francisco on March 15th

http://filmguide.festival.asianamericanmedia.org/tixSYS/2008/filmguide/eventnote?notepg=1&EventNumber=1055